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Old 29th February 2016, 12:00   #821  |  Link
r0lZ
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Yep, I think you're right, unfortunately. :-(

I will add the SAR option anyway. It's easy, and everyone will be able to experiment easily...
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Old 1st March 2016, 13:41   #822  |  Link
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The player I am using is Media Player Classic on PC and what I meant by zooming to 1 frame to watch 2D was by using my own custom Pan&Scan settings. I am OK to have the 3D format either squeezed or in its original AR. It just takes different Pan&Scan settings to watch it in 2D.
The reason why I asked about SAR option really was to have a greater control of what the visual output picture is - showing the 2 frames in its original AR. Having the 2 frames squeezed doesn't affect my watching it in 2D or 3D.

May I ask that you describe in more detail how you can watch 2D of a 3D movie in PotPlayer?
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Old 1st March 2016, 15:18   #823  |  Link
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MPC HC is a good player, but afaik it doesn't "know" the 3D formats, and it is unable to identify them and switch to the 3D or correct 2D mode automatically. It's why I prefer PotPlayer, but I use MPC too, for 2D, and to verify the SBS/T&B in "two views" format.

There are many settings to tweak in PotPlayer to watch the 3D movies in 2D. First of all, you should include the "magic string" in the file name of the MKV so that it will recognise the correct format, as explained here. It's the same convention than for the Bino player. Although it's not documented, I've found that PotPlayer recognises also "HSBS", "HTAB", "SBS" and "TAB" anywhere in the file name (as long as the surrounding characters are NOT alphanumeric and "3D" is also present), but in that case, you cannot specify the order of the two views. Use the BD3D2MK3D option to generate the correct string automatically. Unfortunately, PotPlayer ignores the stereoscopy and frame-packing information.

For the options in the program, in the Video -> 3D Video Mode menu, I leave "Enable 3D Video Mode", "Auto Detect 3D Input Format" and "Auto Switch Between Video Modes (2D <-> 3D)" always enabled. If you have the correct magic string in the filename, it ignores the "3D Video Input (Source)" settings.

To display the 3D video in 2D, you should select in the "3D Video Output (Screen)" sub-menu, one of the two "3D to 2D" option. (I prefer to use the "(Right or Bottom Image)" one, because usually the dependent stream is for the right or bottom image, and it's a better way to verify if the MVC decoding was OK, but it's not as important for you.) With that menu, you can also convert the 3D to another 3D format, such as Anaglyph. In 2D, the quality of the image is somewhat degraded, and I wonder if it's due to my hardware.

For the subtitles, I suppose you don't need them, since you encode in Full-SBS, and it is not possible to generate 3D subtitles for Full-SBS ot Full-T&B. And currently, the only way to display 3D subtitles with the right depths on Full-SBS/T&B is to hardcode them, and of course in case of hardcoded subtitles, you have nothing to configure. So, the following explanation apply only to Half-SBS/T&B with 3D subtitles streams.

In the Subtitles -> 3D Subtitles (Stereoscopic) menu (identical to the "Video -> 3D Video Mode -> 3D Subtitles (Stereoscopic)" menu), you should enable "Do not use", "Subtitle Output Before Resizing" and "Identify 3D Subtitle Mode by Filename".

When you watch the video in 2D and you select a 3D subtitle stream, it is important to select the option "Display subtitles on Video (TV-OUT)" in the Subtitles menu, otherwise you'll get two subtitles in SBS or T&B format over a 2D video! And if you select a 2D stream, you must use the other option "Display subtitles on Overlay/VMR/EVR Surface", otherwise you'll see only an half of the subtitle in SBS, or nothing in T&B.

Note that currently, it seems that PotPlayer has some trouble playing the BD SUP streams. Some subtitles are never displayed, and sometimes, a specific subtitle stays on screen forever (or up to the next subtitle). I hope the author will fix that bug rapidly.

Now, it's my turn to request something. Can you explain what you did to watch a Half-SBS movie in 2D with MPC-HC? I would like to check if it is as easy to do it than with PotPlayer, and if MPC can display the 3D subtitles correctly in 2D. Thanks in advance!
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Old 2nd March 2016, 16:38   #824  |  Link
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Interesting news:
The Films & TV App of Win 10 plays 3D-hTAB movies generated by BD3D2MK3D in 2D mode. Good quality and low CPU load.
Useful for checking on PC.

EDIT: And 3D-hSBS in 2D.

Last edited by frank; 3rd March 2016 at 08:55.
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Old 2nd March 2016, 19:14   #825  |  Link
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Yeah, great! It may be the time to say goodbye to my good old Windows 7...

Bino and SView can also play the 3D movies in 2D (and, of course, in various 3D modes).
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Old 3rd March 2016, 09:18   #826  |  Link
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So the Films & TV App of Win 10 evaluates the frame-packing parameter of mkv.
EDIT: frame-packing parameter in the h264 stream.

AFAIK the first App. It seems M$ has done its homework.

Last edited by frank; 3rd March 2016 at 13:53.
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Old 3rd March 2016, 11:53   #827  |  Link
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The frame-packing is in the h264 stream. It's the stereoscopy mode that is in the MKV header. They are somewhat equivalent, but not totally. The h264 frame-packing is recognised by more programs, probably because it is used on Youtube. My TV, for example, recognises it, as well, of course, as the Youtube app of the TV. AFAIK, the stereoscopy value in the MKV container is ignored by all programs, apps and hardware players so far. It's a pity, because it is more precise than the frame-packing, as it makes the left or right view first distinction.

BTW, the .mk3d file extension is also ignored by almost all programs. It cannot specify the stereoscopy mode, so it is pretty useless anyway, but it can be useful to call Bino or Sview automatically for all 3D movies, and continue to use your preferred 2D player for the other MKV files. Unfortunately, I have to continue to use the .mkv extension, because my TV doesn't recognises the .mk3d files as movies, and it doesn't display them in the GUI! It's really stupid.
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Old 3rd March 2016, 12:28   #828  |  Link
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watching 3D in 2D mode in MPC

r0lZ thanks a lot for the info about 2D mode for 3D movies in PotPlayer.

In MPC custom Pan&Scan settings for watching 2D of a 3D can be added in menu View (or right click on video) > Pan&Scan > Edit...
The idea of how to create those settings I found here.

For testing rather than creating these one by one you can add all my settings directly into the MPC .ini file in the [Settings\PnSPresets] section under the existing 3 settings: 0=Scale to 16:9, 1=Zoom To Ultra-Widescreen, and 2=Zoom To Widescreen:

Preset3=3D (Half-SBS) to 2D [LEFT frame],1.000,0.500,2.000,1.000
Preset4=3D (Half-SBS) to 2D [right frame],0.000,0.500,2.000,1.000
Preset5=3D (Full-SBS) to 2D [LEFT frame],1.000,0.500,2.000,2.000
Preset6=3D (Full-SBS) to 2D [right frame],0.000,0.500,2.000,2.000
Preset7=3D (Half-OU) to 2D [TOP frame],0.500,0.875,1.000,2.000
Preset8=3D (Half-OU) to 2D [bottom frame],0.500,0.125,1.000,2.000
Preset9=3D (Full-OU) to 2D [TOP frame] 2.40:1 widescreen,0.500,0.875,1.800,1.800
Preset10=3D (Full-OU) to 2D [TOP frame] 16:9 (bot-edge),0.500,0.917,1.733,1.800
Preset11=3D (Full-OU) to 2D [bottom frame] 16:9 (top-edge),0.500,0.100,1.733,1.750

You must take into account that my Full-SBS / Full-OU settings above are for views displayed in their original AR ie. not squeezed and MPC is making such a video smaller to fit in the screen. Full-SBS / Full-TB movies with SAR 1:2 in MPC are squeezed and therefore to watch them in 2D they should be treated as Half-SBS/Half-OU.
These presets work perfecly for SBS movies, with T&B however it really depends on what AR your monitor has. On 16:10 monitors the movies with AR 16:9 will show the edge of top/bottom of the other picture and therefore you should probably correct the display by either moving the picture down to the bottom screen edge (if top picture is selected) or by moving the picture up to the top screen edge by using key combinations --> MPC defaults are Ctr+Num8 to move the picture up, and Ctr+Num2 to move the picture down.
That is yet another reason why I prefer SBS movies

Worth remembering is that you can quickly reset the used Pan&Scan setting in MPC by pressing Num5.

As regards 3D subtitles I personally prefer .ass subtitles which can be created from plain 2D .srt by tools like srt23Dass for instance.
It can be downloaded from here. Please be careful not to download it from any other dodgy site.
The download link is at the bottom of the first post in the forum.
The .ass output file is a textual file and therefore more manageable. You can easily choose your own font, color, size, base... etc. The only downside of it is that you set one depth for all the captions. Unless you are crazy about the movie and want to edit the depth manually of the individual subtitles.
One additional note about srt23Dass is that it does not "squeeze" the subtitles and so after conversion you need to manually reduce ScaleX OR ScaleY in the file to 50.
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be developed anymore, which is a shame.
The ideal subtitles tool for me would be something like that which could also make use of the real 3D depth extracted from the 3D planes from the video stream.

Last edited by konikpolny; 3rd March 2016 at 12:56.
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Old 3rd March 2016, 13:07   #829  |  Link
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Thanks for the information. I'll check your presets soon. Currently, I'm checking various combinations of different SAR and DAR with all my players, in the hope that a de-facto standard can emerge. I'll post my findings here...

For the subtitles, I did already know the possibility to convert 2D text subtitles (usually SRT) to 3D ASS, but I know also that it is (currently) not possible to use the real 3D depth extracted from the 3D planes, and for me it's a major drawback. I did not know srt23Dass, but I know this web site, where you can convert your SRT to 3D ASS online.

BTW, it should be possible to add a tool in BD3D2MK3D to convert a SRT stream to 3D ASS with the correct depth values from the original 3D-Planes, and the correct positions on screen (cloned from the positions of an original BD SUP). I have never tried to implement that tool, simply because there are no textual subtitles in 3D BDs, and if the user downloads a SRT somewhere, most of the times, it will not be perfectly in sync, and the final depths of the individual subtitles can be wrong if they are taken from wrong start and end times. Also, it is not always easy to find the subtitles in your native language. And, finally, many players do not display the 3D ASS streams correctly, and show the subtitle only over one of the two views. And, of course, most hardware players cannot use ASS streams at all. So, IMO, 3D ASS subtitles are not really more interesting than 3D SUP. However, a tool to convert the original SUP stream to 3D ASS (with a first step to convert the bitmaps to text/SRT) would be very interesting. I know only two programs to convert the SUP to SRT: SupRip and the excellent Subtitle Edit. They work, but they are very limited, they have no automatic OCR, and they are somewhat tedious to use. Therefore, I don't think that many BD3D2MK3D users will be interested in a tool to convert the subtitles to 3D ASS. If someone is really interested, I may add that tool later...

BTW, someone knows a good BD SUP to SRT (or HD VobSub to SRT) converter, if possible with fully automatic OCR and semi-automatic spell correction? If such a tool exists, it will motivate me to work on a SRT to 3D ASS tool.
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Old 3rd March 2016, 13:29   #830  |  Link
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A good way to generate your own 3D subtitles from srt is using
easySUP by deank (MultiAVCHD). It uses AVS2BDNXML and produces very usable BD sup files.
Then convert to 3D sup with BD3D2MK3D tools.
Edit deep values if necessary and reconvert.

@r0lZ
I use Subtitle Edit http://www.nikse.dk to generate srt, the best I know. You can use the zip as portable app. OCR works but you have to install the right language library.
But every OCR app I know has problems with spelling.

Quote:
The frame-packing is in the h264 stream. It's the stereoscopy mode that is in the MKV header.
Uhh, I forgot it. Thanks for the clarification!

Last edited by frank; 3rd March 2016 at 14:00.
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Old 3rd March 2016, 13:53   #831  |  Link
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r0lZ, I must say I would be insanely grateful if you could add the feature of converting srt to ass with the use of original 3D-planes. It'd be enough to support adding external srts already made. I've got loads of perfectly synched and OCRed srt subs. The OCR process for the lack of fully automated tools could be done manually outside BD3D2MK3D.
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Old 3rd March 2016, 14:47   #832  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ:
Currently, I'm checking various combinations of different SAR and DAR with all my players, in the hope that a de-facto standard can emerge.
Why? The TV or monitor is connected via HDMI. We only need that standard, current 1.4a. HDMI 2.0 (UHD 2160p, 4k) is another game.

HDMI 1.4a - 3D mandatory formats:
- frame packed (full size, BD)
- half SBS, half TAB (HDTV, bandwidth)

Since many of the capabilities detailed in the HDMI 1.4 specification are optional implementations, it’s the responsibility of the manufacturer to tell you what features are supported in the device.

Receivers with HDMI 1.4a can automatically detect the format. The aspect ratio in every case is 16:9!
Displays have an EDID table due to standard. That's why cropping (to other AR, 2.40...) will mess up the picture, but some dudes don't get it.

So if the stream has other formats, the player has to convert to one of the mandatory HDMI formats. Potplayer and Stereoscopic Player can do a lot.

Last edited by frank; 7th March 2016 at 14:05.
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Old 3rd March 2016, 15:23   #833  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank View Post
A good way to generate your own 3D subtitles from srt is using
easySUP by deank (MultiAVCHD). It uses AVS2BDNXML and produces very usable BD sup files.
Then convert to 3D sup with BD3D2MK3D tools.
Edit deep values if necessary and reconvert.
Personally, I use Subtitle Edit to convert SRT to BD SUP. It gives good results too, and can even convert to 3D directly (but unfortunately only with a fixed depth).

Quote:
Originally Posted by frank View Post
@r0lZ
I use Subtitle Edit http://www.nikse.dk to generate srt, the best I know. You can use the zip as portable app. OCR works but you have to install the right language library.
But every OCR app I know has problems with spelling.
Yep. It's why I would like an app that can fix the most common errors automatically. SubRip (not SupRip) does that very well, but it doesn't work with BD SUP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by konikpolny View Post
r0lZ, I must say I would be insanely grateful if you could add the feature of converting srt to ass with the use of original 3D-planes. It'd be enough to support adding external srts already made. I've got loads of perfectly synched and OCRed srt subs. The OCR process for the lack of fully automated tools could be done manually outside BD3D2MK3D.
I'll try to do it, but without guarantee. I don't know the ASS file format well, and I may have some difficulties with the guide file, since it is in a totally different format. Anyway, I'll try when I'll have some free time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by frank View Post
Why? The TV or monitor is connected via HDMI. We only need that standard, current 1.4a. HDMI 2.0 (UHD 2160p, 4k) is another game.
First, not everybody use a player connected to the TV via HDMI. Personally, I use an hard disc connected via USB, and the TV must recognise the format and AR correctly. (In the case of my Samsung TV and probably to most TVs, it stretches the 3D picture to occupy the whole screen anyway, so the SAR and DAR in the file are totally ignored, but other TVs or projectors may be smarter.)

Secondly, the software players are much more versatile, and need the correct AR, to display the movie in 3D or in 2D (like konikpolny does with MPC-HC, and I do with PotPlayer).

Finally, although I think it is not possible to determine the "right" DAR and SAR values that will work for any type of 3D and with any player, I think it is better to use by default the values that work best with the vast majority of software players. These values will be ignored in the case you describe, but they do not hurt, and may be very useful in many other cases.

Unfortunately, the results of the tests I did so far seem to indicate that there is not really an universal solution. I will still do some additional tests to try to clarify what some players need...
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Old 8th March 2016, 16:36   #834  |  Link
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I have trouble encoding my Wreck-It Ralph (nordic) blu-ray properly. During processing it complains about a few errors:

* DTS-HD stream (track 3): bad frame detected at position01:02:46,069. Resync stream.
* Warning: The AVC and MVC video streams do not have the same number of frames: 143017 and 143019. That means that the two streams are probably not synchronised properly, and that encoding this playlist to SBS or T&B may fail.
The script will be generated anyway.

Most of the movie encodes without problems (I didn't check the audio stream at the bad frame position yet). However, After the end titles, the stream breaks, just before the disney logo appears.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's some sort of copy protection preventing this, but I haven't had such bad problems with any other discs (even several other Disney titles).

I tried ripping it with both AnyDVD and DVDFab - Same issue.

I do however (for the sake of convenience) extract the contents to directories using WinRAR prior to processing. Do you think it would help mounting the ISO with Daemon-Tools or similar?
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Old 8th March 2016, 18:32   #835  |  Link
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It's typical of a badly ripped BD. There is at least one part with bad data. That means that even if the decoder can read the AVC and MVC stream, they are almost certainly desynchronised after the error, and the MVC stream cannot be decoded properly (because decoding a frame from the MVC stream depends of the same frame in the AVC stream, and due to the desync, the frames do not match any more).

I don't think that could be an intentional protection. That problem is frequent, especially with downloaded ISOs, and afaik, it has never be caused by a protection.

It is always better to mount the ISO instead of copying the streams, because you have to copy the stereoscopic movie twice (in the form of M2TS and SSIF), but that has no impact on the possibility to recover the error.

Unfortunately, I think there is nothing to do, except re-ripping the BD correctly.
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Old 8th March 2016, 20:02   #836  |  Link
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It's not a downloaded iso - As I said, I've been ripping it with both AnyDVD and DVDFab and even tried two different drives, and I get the same error with every one. The only thing I didn't try, was mounting the ISO (I dislike Daemon Tools lately so unless it may fix the problem, I would avoid installing it).

So, how can I rip the BD properly? Any better ripping software available?

If extracted source vs. mounted iso only has impact on speed, I think I'm all set. It takes just about 2 hours encoding with default settings + --ref 4 --me umh. I tried both from NAS and local SSD with similar speed results.
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Old 8th March 2016, 20:14   #837  |  Link
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There are many programs to mount ISO files. On Win8 or 10, it's even possible without any additional software. On my Win7, I use WinMount, not free unfortunately, but there are many alternatives.

I don't know other rippers than AnyDVD and DVDFab. Have you tried to clean the disc?
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Old 8th March 2016, 22:52   #838  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank View Post
So the Films & TV App of Win 10 evaluates the frame-packing parameter of mkv.
EDIT: frame-packing parameter in the h264 stream.

AFAIK the first App. It seems M$ has done its homework.
Note: The SAR for the hSBS must be set to --sar 1:1 or unspecified for undistorted 2D playback by the W10 Movie&TV app.
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Old 8th March 2016, 23:05   #839  |  Link
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Oh cool, I didn't know that! Thanks for the tip.

Apparently it had something to do with the extracted disc contents. I mounted the ISO, and it went through with no alerts and no problems. Encoded perfectly through the end!
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Old 9th March 2016, 09:33   #840  |  Link
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Note: The SAR for the hSBS must be set to --sar 1:1 or unspecified for undistorted 2D playback by the W10 Movie&TV app.
Thanks! That was also my conclusion. Apparently, all 3D formats (half and full) require SAR 1:1. When I did my tests, I have noticed too that Bino and Stereoscopic Player require it for Half-SBS. Sview, PotPlayer (in 3D mode) and SM Player ignore the SAR (and therefore accept 1:1 too).

Most 2D players obey the SAR and if you want to display the two views undistorted, it is necessary to use 2:1. It's a pity, because it is impossible to have the correct final AR in both 3D and 2D modes, but anyway, who want to play a SBS movie with the 2 images side by side, even if they are not distorted? And with SAR 1:1, it is still possible to display one view only with a good 3D player or with MPC-HC with a custom Pan & Scan setting.

Therefore, the next version of BD3D2MK3D will use SAR 1:1 in all cases. At least, it's very simple for me! :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by odyssey View Post
Apparently it had something to do with the extracted disc contents. I mounted the ISO, and it went through with no alerts and no problems. Encoded perfectly through the end!
Thanks for the info. It's interesting. BTW, finally, what tool did you use to mount the ISO?
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