Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > (HD) DVD, Blu-ray & (S)VCD > One click suites for DVD backup and DVD creation

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 28th March 2003, 13:13   #1  |  Link
Antonio S.
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 354
Formula for correct size in IC

I had developed a simple math formula that may help to get the correct size (4.37GB) when using InstantCopy.

Formula

Data Size = 4350 + X(.625)
X = The sum in Mb of all audios removed.
"Data Size" is the value that you enter in IC

Example

Movie1:
3 Titles
Movie title: Audio 1- 373MB, Audio 2- 176MB, and Audio 3- 176MB).
(Audio 2 and 3 are removed).

Calculate Data Size:

x = 176 + 176
x = 352 MB

Data Size = 4350 + 352(.625)
Data Size = 4350 + 220
Data Size = 4570 MB

So to get an aproximate value of 4350 MB, you must increase total data size to 4570 MB

Notes

-I choose base value of 4350, to avoid to fill completely a DVD-R, but a value of 4370 may be taken.
-In my test this formula has an accuracy of 94%...

Antonio S.

Last edited by Antonio S.; 28th March 2003 at 13:19.
Antonio S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2003, 16:53   #2  |  Link
Fmazzanti
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 330
I wonder where this 0.625 comes from... is this an empirical formula or there is some sort of theoretical background behind it?
Fmazzanti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2003, 17:43   #3  |  Link
MackemX
..DVD GOD..
 
MackemX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,838
Antonio S.

nice formula and I appreciate your time and effort to tell us this as we would all love 4.37Gb, but what happens when you don't remove audio?

unfortunately it still undersizes

this is basically the same as Arianos's thread HERE but he did not multiply it by 0.625

personally I think its more to do with the brightness/large areas of the same colour/blackbars within image as shown HERE, but I'm probably wrong

I was gonna do a spreadsheet based on the this but I don't think I'll bother as I've now posted on the Pinnacle site HERE and hopefully everyone else will

Then maybe Pinnacle will get the hint and stop the crashing with long periods of dark scenes and do something about the sizing issue also

The sooner the better
MackemX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2003, 10:17   #4  |  Link
darrellw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 35
am beginning to wonder whether IC is worth all the hassle? been using DVd2One, impressed with the speed on my old? 900 Athlon but keep having audio sync problems on episodes 3 or 4, so time to try IC. only backing up X-files serie for now
series 3 disc 1 first bash, set to 4.6G came out at 4.06, will have another bash (5 hours later) set size to max, only another 270MB at 4.87, came out at 4.55G, hmmmm. another 270MB results in a 490MB increase. still no problem, i can simply follow your guide for reducing it to fit, but first can get rid of the extra English audio that IC left in, but no Ifoedit crashes with "error writing file at VTS_01.5VOE stage. no worries will try to shrink one of the episodes, as there are no extras to shrink. picked the first episode as this seemed for some reason to be quite alot larger than the rest (1.6G compared to 900mb or so for the rest).result two new VOB files
VTS_01_1.VOB 1,048,574
VTS_01_2.VOB 223,826

this could be where i show my ignorance, but how do i replace the original VOB's with the new ones as they are
VTS_01_1.VOB 1,048,574
VTS_01_2.VOB 1,048,574


really struggling to get to grips with DVD structure, have read all the guides ( i think) but they are too basic. is there nothing that is a little, and i mean a little more advanced will have to have a go at the guides for file size prediction but i get the impression that they are still only largely (educated )guesswork
cheers
darrell
darrellw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2003, 11:04   #5  |  Link
MackemX
..DVD GOD..
 
MackemX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,838
theres no guesswork involved, and if you were referring to my guides, its all there but it involves a little user work and no matter how advanced a user you are, most of the info is there if you follow the guides and you just adapt it to suit your needs. These guides hopefully help the newbies and give the advanced users ideas

first you resize the DVD (link) and find out if any titles are reporting incorrect videosize as this can seriously affect you end result, so it's best to check

check all titles for correct audio/subs seleceted as again IC cannot do this properly and look out for any audio/subs without reported sizes

set the menu/extras to your desired level and slide the movie title(s) so the predicted size will be 4.37Gb

add 4% of the total of the predicted transcoded movie/extras titles assuming you have the default reg settings to 4.37Gb

then record all the data in the excel recorder spreadsheet (link)

run IC and see how much it's under/over and reload the extracted PDI files into IC again. If you use IC to remove titles you probably wont be able to do this

input the new sizes of the titles into the spreadsheet and add the MB needed to be added/remove to any title in the ADJUST MB and it will tell you what to set it at in the SET TO (MB) column as it shows what effect each title has

then run IC again with the original IFO with just that title set to what was shown and the menu at 100%, extract the files and use Ifoupdate to input the 2nd run title vobs over the 1st run vobs (link, info down the page)

sorted

and it stops having to do a full 2nd run and even better a 3rd just for 5 mins use in excel and a little bit of checking in IC

if you have problems then you may have overlooked something

p.s the audio left in by IC was probably IC's error but that's why it's best to check 1st and Ifoedit crashing may be down to lack of hard drive space as that's what normally happens when you get that error
MackemX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2003, 14:04   #6  |  Link
darrellw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 35
sorry, still do not get it

new replacement VOB's
VTS_01_1.VOB 1,048,574
VTS_01_2.VOB 223,826
tried to paste them into the old folder first one replaces the original VTS_01_1.VOB but the second wants to replace VTS_01_2.VOB which is 1,048,574 which is obviously is not going to work as i will lose 0.75G or so of info
what am i doing wrong please
cheers MisterX
darrell
darrellw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2003, 14:21   #7  |  Link
MackemX
..DVD GOD..
 
MackemX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,838
thats what you do
and then you use Ifoupdate to fix the IFO's

point the original source to the VTS_01_0.IFO for the two original VOB's

then point the newly authored to the IFO for the 2 new VOB's and run Ifoupdate

this will update the IFO's and fix all the sectors

try to find an ifoupdate guide if you are still not sure

how many VTS_01_x.VOB's are there? by the way?
MackemX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2003, 23:26   #8  |  Link
jaagee
Registered User
 
jaagee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Falcon Country
Posts: 28
Re: Formula for correct size in IC

Quote:
Originally posted by Antonio S.
I had developed a simple math formula that may help to get the correct size (4.37GB) when using InstantCopy.

Except for the multiplier, this is the same method I wrote about in a thread about 2 weeks ago. In my thread, I also added back the unwanted audios but I did not use your (.625) multiplier. In every instance, by adding the audios and not using a multiplier, I ranged between 4.2 and 4.3GB. I only went over once, Road To Perdition, and it was probably just the movie because it went WAY OVER

You are definitely on the right track though. Just curious, did you tweak your registry settings in IC? If so, what were your settings? I will compare your settings to mine and try your method of the multiplier and see how close I can get.

Thanks,
jaagee
jaagee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th March 2003, 00:04   #9  |  Link
Antonio S.
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 354
@jaagee:

For your first question: The only change a made to the registry is "the DVD always enable OK button". However I think that increasing the "DVDAnalyzeMaxRel" will help...
About the ".625 multiplier", I really get that factor from making various test,with same material, removing one or more audio(s). However it may not be the ultimate value. As MisterX post, also transcoding movies with "blackbars" may affect the final size. Maybe modifing my original formula to add this variant can make more accurate results (MisterX may give more information about this).

For example a new formula may be:

Data Size = 4350 + X(.625) + Y(Z)

Where:
X = The sum in Mb of all audios removed.
Y = "Original Video Data Size".
Z = "Black Bar Bug constant".

Maybe MisterX may determine the "Z" value...

Antonio S.

Last edited by Antonio S.; 30th March 2003 at 00:12.
Antonio S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th March 2003, 12:16   #10  |  Link
darrellw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 35
thanks again for getting back to me MisterX but still not working , so ditched the oversized run, and the the rest, need the hard disc space. tried out your destructions on fixing the "phantom" Mb size bug. got the two totals to match with the data size set to 4.31G. should i then oversize it using the F5 key or not? could not see instructions either way so left it at disc size of 4.31 doing it's thing overnight.
woke up excited, my first accurate sized DVD using IC, hmmmmmm only 3.97G. is it me or perhaps the instructions need making clearer, am trying again with the slider set to 4.7G. only another 5/6 hours, will see what happens.

is IC that much better than DVD2One to be worth all this hassle?
don't know as i cannot get a file size to accurately compare the two. now if only i could afford to try out DVd95Copy

I am reaonably happy with DVD2ONE it's just that it tends to give me audio sync problems in the 3/4 episode on most discs

does anyone know how to use DVD2ONE to transcode the x-files series a single episode at a time, so if there is a problem then i can redo the particular episode

cheers folks
darrell
darrellw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th March 2003, 12:19   #11  |  Link
MackemX
..DVD GOD..
 
MackemX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,838
@darrellw
did you set it to 4.31 and process it?

set it to fit 4.37Gb, not 4.31 as you want 4.37Gb

add up all the predicted transcoded video that is not set to 100% as this is what will undersize (not audio or 100% titles or anything else)

add 7% or 8%(more risk) of that total onto 4.37Gb, the choice of risk is yours. I would the say the brighter the DVD/ the more static images then the less the %

so if I had a video total of 3.67Gb, I would add 8% of that to 4.37Gb, which is 0.29Gb or a setting of 4.66Gb

to play it safe just set it to 4.64, if you cannot trim a few MB from an extra title

and if you record the results you can easily trim/add the few MB's required within a few mins if need be

once you realise what I mean you will see how easy it is

Imagine if you kept a DVD that only had 1024Mb of video and 3.87Gb of audio and you set the video to 50% to fit 4.37Gb, but oversize it to 4.6Gb using a guess as most people do, it would be well over

the actual result will be around 90-92% of 512MB of the predicted video size of 512MB which will result in around 465MB (+-5MB) or undersizing by 0.04-0.05Gb, so a setting of 4.42(+- 0.01Gb) would do it


Last edited by MackemX; 30th March 2003 at 12:46.
MackemX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th March 2003, 15:25   #12  |  Link
MackemX
..DVD GOD..
 
MackemX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,838
just an opinion :)

take the time to read this as it may explain it a little clearer about the way removing audio actually affects the resulting size, if any, using IC and what Pinnacle meant by it when stating it affected it

audio removal does not affect the resulting file size in anyway unless the automatic resize box is checked and you remove audio when it automatic is selected and then only in a specific way

If you have the box checked (which is IC's default) and remove an audio track then that space from the removal of the audio is then allocated evenly to the predicted transcoded video for each title

the only thing that affects IC and it's resulting file size is the amount of space allocated to the video content and the video content itself

we all know that video under sizes when processed by IC and by how much depends on the image movement, original image quality and the amount of dark content within that specific title. This can range from anything but on most occasions the resulting movie title video size is around 90-92% of what IC originally predicted for that title. It's the extra's titles that are completely out of the 'norm' and then affect the result by more or less

if you remove 400MB of audio, the automatic sizing in IC allocates this 400MB to the predicted video space. It will probably only use 370B(+-5MB) of this, resulting in around 25-35MB of wasted space due to under sizing. So to compensate there have been suggestions of adding all/certain percentage of the audio total removed to 4.31 to compensate. This is not the answer though it will work due to that sometimes the audio removed happens to be 6-8% of the predicted transcoded video size

to explain this another way, if you have a DVD with only a movie(4Gb) and 2 audio streams(0.35Gb each) and set the slider of the movie title to 60% predicting 2.4Gb and keep the audio you will probably get a size of 2.2Gb for the video. Now doing it again, using the same setting of 60% for the title but this time remove the audio, I can guarantee you will end up with 2.2Gb of video again (or within a few MB) and this shows that removing audio does not affect the resulting size apart from obviously the size of the audio

or, you keep just the movie title and menu(100%) and remove one audio stream and account for this using the audio removal theory and set it to say 4.6Gb and it results in a file of 4.35Gb. I can again confidently say that if you kept all the extra's titles and reduced those also and again set it to a predicted 4.6Gb using the same audio removal theory the resulting file size will not always be the same as the movie only!

a DVD with no audio would still undersize, so how can audio removal affect it and how can it be corrected using this theory?
The same goes with DVD's like Blade 2 that has over 1.3Gb of audio and cannot be corrected based on audio removal

I do hope you see my points

the original over sizing problem although mostly down to lack of analzing the complete DVD may have also slightly been down to IC not seeing the true size of certain DVD's as it cannot read IFO's correctly as I have shown with a few examples, resulting in complaint's of oversizing from some people yet others had no complaints

it now very rarely oversizes it's predictions due to the buffer Pinnacle implemented as this will now absorb the missing MB that IC overlooks

Pinnacle implemented a 6% buffer ( link,now supposedly reduced to 4% ) due to IC not being able to correctly predict the resulting size without a full analysis of content and now all DVD's suffer because of this

replacing the 6% buffer that Pinnacle implemented is still not enough by randomly oversizing as it also seems to be affected by 3 other things

1. the brightness of the content
2. any constant or prolonged static images
3. the quality of the video

this is why the accuracy can vary from title to title within the same DVD as they all have different contentm, so this is where your judgement will come into it (example of variation in resulting prediction)

what I now do is
1. resize the DVD first within IC, checking it has seen the correct size
2. remove audio/subs again checking every title due to IC missing/adding some
3. set slider to my preferences fitting it to 4.37Gb
4. add 6-8%(depending on the 3 factors above though it may need to be smaller now with new 4% buffer) of the total predicted video only size (the area that is affected by undersizing) onto the 4.37Gb but ignoring titles at 100% as these will be the same size
5. record the settings for each title so I can see what effect IC has on each individual title to correct the sizing without doing a complete 2nd run and being able to isolate just one title to correct mistake
6. burn a DVD of 4.37Gb

for a little bit of effort of around 5-10mins in the beginning the rewards are worth it in the end

if you agree then fine, if you disagree then fine but I do hope you see the thinking behind my points regardless of whether you agree or not and I am not trying to undermine anyone else's suggestions by posting this, but I'm trying to let people understand a little more of how IC works and hopefully do not offend anyone by this


Last edited by MackemX; 30th March 2003 at 19:19.
MackemX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2003, 11:26   #13  |  Link
auszeus
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 11
MisterX, I do not understand your point.

If I choose to remove a 650Mbyte DTS track surely that means that IC uses the extra 650Mbyte for video. That is, on the video title I now slide the slider to the right and increase the video percentage ? Or are you saying that the 650Mbyte is not used by the video and is simply wasted ?
auszeus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2003, 12:43   #14  |  Link
MackemX
..DVD GOD..
 
MackemX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,838
Quote:
Originally posted by auszeus
MisterX, I do not understand your point.

If I choose to remove a 650Mbyte DTS track surely that means that IC uses the extra 650Mbyte for video. That is, on the video title I now slide the slider to the right and increase the video percentage ? Or are you saying that the 650Mbyte is not used by the video and is simply wasted ?
If you have the automatic box ticked then all the titles go up by a few %, swallowing that 650MB. Now cos 650MB of predicted video will not be 650MB at the end of processing then you must add a further 6-8% of that 650MB due to IC under sizing, so really you need to add between 690-700MB of video to make up for the 650MB of audio removed

650MB would probably end up being 600-610MB if you just let IC have it's way so 40-50MB would be wasted so thats why you up the slider to compensate

you should remove the audio 1st anyway before you size up to 4.37 and then add 6-8% of the predicted video size cos this is what will under size, ignoring titles still at 100% as they will come out the same size also

the % you add will be your judgement of content of the DVD (I normally use 8%)

1Gb of video add 0.06-0.08 to 4.37 (4.43-4.45)
2Gb of video add 0.12-0.16 to 4.37 (4.49-4.53)
3Gb of video add 0.18-0.24 to 4.37 (4.55-4.61)
4Gb of video add 0.24-0.32 to 4.37 (4.61-4.69)

an average DVD video content is normally 3.7Gb of data and 8% of that is 0.29Gb or a setting of 4.66Gb, so you can see why 4.65ish works for most people

users can work out the bits inbetween but hopefully you can see what I mean now

it's not quantum physics as some people seem to believe, it's just simple mathematics and I cannot put it any simpler than that

hope this helps and quite simply just ignore audio!, it's the amount of video being processed that matters, the more video processed the more it under sizes

what happens to a film of only one soundtrack?, yep, it still undersizes, audio removal has nothing to do with it as it is a constant

rant rant rant

hope this helps

Last edited by MackemX; 31st March 2003 at 12:46.
MackemX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2003, 11:19   #15  |  Link
darrellw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 35
success finally with x-files series 3 and IC
stripped audio using IFOEDIT
Used MisterX's guide to finding phantom VOBS (great work keep it up)
disc 1 - set slider to 4.7G came out at 4.27, perfectly acceptable to me
disc 2 - got a litle more greedy, but not that brave set slider to 4.71, came out at 4,31 still hmmmm
great finally sorted this out, but no wait IFOEDIT starting to screw up. re-installed but no difference
getting VTS sectors is making my DVD return " illegal Navigation command" error
have posted fuller story on Ifoedit forum but any suggestion would be most appreciated
cheers again MisterX for your help, your assistance is most appreciated
darrell
darrellw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2003, 23:13   #16  |  Link
jfcarbel
Programmer
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 495
darrell - What was your DVDSaveQuality set to for these X-files?
jfcarbel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th April 2003, 17:16   #17  |  Link
darrellw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 35
jfcarbel
DVDSaveQuality was set to 4
x-files PAL format
used MisterX guide to hunting down phantom vobs before starting
hope this helps
darrell
darrellw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th April 2003, 17:21   #18  |  Link
MackemX
..DVD GOD..
 
MackemX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,838
Quote:
Originally posted by darrellw
jfcarbel
DVDSaveQuality was set to 4
x-files PAL format
used MisterX guide to hunting down phantom vobs before starting
hope this helps
darrell
so was it missing actually anything?

maybe we should start a list of DVD's that have hidden MB so that user's who have sizing probs can check if that DVD is in the list

I have 3 myself I can think of, and I bet ther's more I've missed before I started checking

users should really check IC is reporting the true size anyway, but I think that's a massive task as people will not do it until they are affected by it

I do it religously now and it takes seconds but saves you the grief later

I just other's would understand why I say this
MackemX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th April 2003, 20:56   #19  |  Link
darrellw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 35
sorry cannot remember whether or not there were any phantom MB's but it is a good idea to keep a record for other users.will keep anote in the future
is there a place where we could post this information, along with DVD's that we have successfully transcoded (close to the 4.37G size) or has the newest update sorted this out

now if i could just sort out my IFOEDIT problem

darrell
darrellw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 14:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.