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Old 19th February 2011, 21:43   #5621  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
So it seems to me now that we never actually disagreed? We just misunderstood each other?
Yeah, it's probably my bad for not fully reading the discussion I was replying to.

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You say Reclock doesn't touch the monitor refresh rate. I thought Reclock has some scripting capability with which users can automatically switch refresh rates via VBS script? Well, maybe I'm wrong, I've never that VBS scripting capability yet.
That also requires Powerstrip I believe, and it's an optional advanced user feature (not default behavior). leeperry is more familiar with it, I'm sure.

I've personally never touched it or needed it, and it's probably the same for most Reclock users.
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Old 19th February 2011, 21:47   #5622  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by ikarad View Post
Please, could you explain what are the differences between inverse telecine, "motion adaptive and vector adaptive?

Inverse Telecine is not deinterlacing it all. Its for video processed by Telecine, its a process to convert film content into video content.

Motion and Vector Adaptive are two deinterlacing algorithms, which to describe would go out of scope for this post. Vector Adaptive is the better quality, but will also use more performance.
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Old 19th February 2011, 22:01   #5623  |  Link
ikarad
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Inverse Telecine is not deinterlacing it all. Its for video processed by Telecine, its a process to convert film content into video content.

Motion and Vector Adaptive are two deinterlacing algorithms, which to describe would go out of scope for this post. Vector Adaptive is the better quality, but will also use more performance.
Inverse telecine transform intrelaced movies (30 fps for example) in non entrelaced movies (24 fps for example), not? It's not deinterlacing method? Maybe I misunderstood all.

I use inverse telecine filter for intrelaced japan anime.

If I told wrong things, told me.

Last edited by ikarad; 19th February 2011 at 22:03.
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Old 19th February 2011, 22:06   #5624  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Sadly i have never seen a comparison of HQV Hardware vs. Software deinterlacing, only ATI vs NVIDIA, or similar - but the resulting images look really good to me.
HQV etc hardware does not use motion compensation, which ATI and NVidia seem to use. So ATI/NVidia might actually be better. But I'm not really sure.

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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
The best part about it is, that at least on NVIDIA (cannot speak about ATI, haven't had one for quite a while), it can also detect telecine and process that properly with IVTX. It doesn't try to treat it as interlaced - without any special configuration necessary, it just works.
Well, that's how it should be. I guess, though, that the movie framerate still stays at 60Hz for 1080i60 movies, although IVTC is used? I don't think any decoder/renderer currently automatically switches between 24Hz and 60Hz output, depending on whether 1080i60 content is film or video, right?

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Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Yeah, it's probably my bad for not fully reading the discussion I was replying to.
Hehe...
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Old 19th February 2011, 22:07   #5625  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by mark0077 View Post
madshi, with "delay switch to exclusive mode by 3 seconds" enabled, and "show seek bar" disabled, and when i double click the mpc-hc window to make the window fullscreen, madVR immediately indicates its going to exclusive mode. There is no 3 second delay. Restarting mpc-hc has no effect.

This means that when I actually want to use the mpc-hc seekbar, and when I move the mouse to the bottom of the fullscreen window, the mpc-hc seekbar appears, but madVR seems to go immediately to exclusive fullscreen again. The 3 second delay isn't... well working at all for me. Again not a huge issue but if you want me to try anything let me know and I can do that.
I've worked on the exclusive <-> windowed switch a bit, it should be a bit better in the next build (maybe coming out tomorrow). Please retry with that build and let me know if the problem is still there.
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Old 19th February 2011, 23:32   #5626  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by pankov View Post
I only know that when I use madVR I get higher DPC latency times than when I use EVR.
Which graphic card do you have? If it's a Nvidia it might be the culprit. The current drivers cause high DPC latency times... I'm currently getting some with my computer. It might be the reason for the lock ups I'm getting with madVR...
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Old 19th February 2011, 23:47   #5627  |  Link
pankov
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I'm using AMD HD5750 with Catalyst 10.12 drivers so I guess it's not the same issue.
yesgrey, do your high DPC latency times happen only when using madVR or also in other "games" using the 3D engine?
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Old 20th February 2011, 00:04   #5628  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by pankov View Post
do your high DPC latency times happen only when using madVR or also in other "games" using the 3D engine?
I don't play "games" anymore, only madVR.
But the high DPC latency times I'm getting are even with the computer idle. Using madVR does not make it worse when watching something, only when I try right clicking to get the menu and the lockups happen they go wild!
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Old 20th February 2011, 01:22   #5629  |  Link
Plutotype
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[QUOTE=yesgrey;1479284]I don't play "games" anymore, only madVR.

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Old 20th February 2011, 07:27   #5630  |  Link
Mark_A_W
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Let me give you a few reasons of why having the audio renderer change refresh rates doesn't make sense:

(1) The DirectShow chain automatically provides all necessary information to all filters, including the renderers. DirectShow does *not* tell the audio renderer *anything* about video. By relying on DirectShow alone, an audio renderer doesn't even know if the media playback includes video or not. I think that gives a clear hint that Microsoft thinks that the audio renderer should not get its hands dirty with any video stuff.

(2) Consider a dual monitor setup: First monitor LCD computer display. Second monitor a front projector. Many LCD computer displays only support 60Hz. Most front projectors support 60Hz and also 24Hz. So the refresh rage changer ("RRC") needs to behave differently, depending on which monitor the video is played on. That means the RRC practically needs a full monitor setup, which detects monitors and stores supported refresh rates per monitor. Now tell me: Does Reclock recognize different monitors? And does Reclock allow you to configure the automatic refresh rate changing, depending on which monitor video is played on? Does Reclock have a full monitor management to allow all this kind of stuff? Does a full monitor management belong into the settings dialog of an audio renderer?

(3) Consider watching a 1080i60 TV broadcast, which first shows a movie and after that a music concert. You want to watch both. Now the optimal refresh rate for the movie is 24Hz, but the optimal refresh rate for the music concert is 60Hz. Do you honestly think the audio renderer is in a position to switch refresh rates if the type of video content (film <-> video) changes in the middle of playback? The only one who can possibly know this is the deinterlacer, which is usually part of the video renderer.

1. I don't disagree with what you are saying at all...but:

2. Actually, the answer to most of that is yes. Reclock does detect monitors. You can force it it, or let it choose automatically.
It will change refresh rate when coupled with Powerstrip.

It might not be the best place for all this stuff, but most of what you stated is in place.

3. Reclock manages, by hook or by crook. But it's not perfect. Sometimes I get literally perfect playback. Other times I don't - I don't know why, it's not repeatable. However I'm not using exclusive (it won't work for an interlaced res).

Feel free to make it all perfect I'll buy you a beer - I've already offered more than once!
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Old 20th February 2011, 09:03   #5631  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post
Actually, the answer to most of that is yes. Reclock does detect monitors. You can force it it, or let it choose automatically.
It will change refresh rate when coupled with Powerstrip.
But does it allow you to specify different refresh rate change settings for different detected monitors? If so, that would be news to me.

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Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post
Feel free to make it all perfect I'll buy you a beer - I've already offered more than once!
I don't like beer. Which is weird, being german. I prefer a cold coke.
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Old 20th February 2011, 09:19   #5632  |  Link
Mark_A_W
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No, I don't think the stock VBS script is that clever.

But it's a VBS script - a skilled person will be able to make it serve up a cold coke
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Old 20th February 2011, 11:11   #5633  |  Link
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Touching monitor display refresh rate. Isn't it dangerous for monitor/TV/etc. ?
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Old 20th February 2011, 11:29   #5634  |  Link
jmone
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I disagree. Changing the video refresh rate is naturally the duty of the video renderer. Anything else makes no sense. Having the audio renderer change the video refresh rate behind the back of the video renderer makes as much sense as having the video renderer change the audio DAC sample rate behind the back of the audio renderer.
I agree that the Audio Renderer is the "odd" place to have it be given the development of Reclock to resampling Audio to keep place with the video it was a logical outcome at the time.

That said, there are other parts of the playback chain where the refresh rate management may make sense, including the Video Render, Decoder or the Player itself. I'd argue that the Player may make the most sense as it owns the whole direct show playback thread. Of course that means the player need to monitor and influence what is happening!
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Old 20th February 2011, 12:07   #5635  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
Touching monitor display refresh rate. Isn't it dangerous for monitor/TV/etc. ?
Not really. Today's digital displays simply show no image if they don't understand/support the video format. Maybe CRTs could take damage if you drive them with too high refresh rate, I don't know.

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Originally Posted by jmone View Post
there are other parts of the playback chain where the refresh rate management may make sense, including the Video Render, Decoder or the Player itself. I'd argue that the Player may make the most sense as it owns the whole direct show playback thread. Of course that means the player need to monitor and influence what is happening!
It depends a bit on how you see it. Having the refresh rate management in the player would be a logical choice, too, since the media player is the one who supposedly has ultimate control over everything. However, I think that video rendering decisions should be made by the video renderer and not by the media player. E.g. if a video renderer offers features like black frame insertion, or interpolated intermediate frames, or if the video renderer is able to automatically detect video vs. film content, all these things result in the need for different refresh rates. If the media player would be the one to decide, it would have to understand and add controls for all those video renderer specific features.

As an example, just suppose madVR v1.1 would add black frame insertion as a new feature. If that happens, madVR will have to output very high refresh rates (as high as possible). If the media player would be in control of refresh rates, it would not activate the necessary high refresh rates - unless it would get new controls for madVR v1.1. So basically the media player would need to add controls to disable/enable black frame insertion, and then forward these controls to madVR. Which means that with the release of madVR v1.1, all media players which support madVR would have to be updated to add the new controls and to allow the higher refresh rates needed for black frame insertion. Does this really make sense? I don't think so.

(Just to be safe: I'm not saying that madVR v1.1 will add black frame insertion. I've no idea whether I'll ever implement such a feature.)
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Old 20th February 2011, 13:48   #5636  |  Link
noee
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But does it allow you to specify different refresh rate change settings for different detected monitors? If so, that would be news to me.
Yes, it does, but only using the "event trigger" method that is provided. For example, Reclock will trigger an event (NotifyDisplayChange.EXE) that specifically runs the script file "RunEvent.VBS".

The following params are passed to the VBS:
Code:
' The 7 parameters received by this script are explained below:
'
' (1) contains the event name that just occurred:
'    - "GREEN"  : tray icon just got green (all is fine). Parameter
'    - "YELLOW" : tray icon just got yellow. We should make what is necessary
'                 to change the monitor refresh rate 
'    - "STOP"   : playback just stopped
'    - "QUIT"   : ReClock is about to quit
'
' Parameters (2), (3), (8) and (9) apply only with "GREEN" and "YELLOW" events. Otherwise they contain "-"
'
' (2) contains the type of media file currently played :
'    - "CINEMA" : frame rate of source file is around 24 fps
'    - "PAL"    : frame rate of source file is around 25 fps
'    - "NTSC"   : frame rate of source file is around 30 fps
'    - "CUSTOM" : frame rate of source file does not fall in previous categories
'
' (3) contains the current sound playback mode (apply only with GREEN/YELLOW event):
'    - "PCM"    : PCM mode
'    - "SPDIF"  : AC3 passthrough SPDIF
'
' (4) contains the current monitor selected for playback (1=primary, 2=secondary, etc...)
'
' (5) contains the total monitor count detected in the system
'
' (6) contains the current resolution of your monitor (WIDTHxHEIGHT)
'
' (7) contains the current refresh rate of your monitor (in Hz)
'
' (8) contains the original playback rate of the file (in fps multiplied by 1000)
'
' (9) contains the current playback rate of the file (in fps multiplied by 1000)
'
' (10) contains the filename of the current media file
YOu'll note that param 4 is the current playback monitor.

So, yeah, you can do it using this method. But technically speaking, REclock is not doing it. Reclock is only triggering the event by calling the VBS. Up to you (the user) what to do with it.

And for some reason, the myth has perpetuated that Reclock requires Powerstrip to do this. Completely not true, you can call any "display changer" from the script.
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Old 20th February 2011, 14:17   #5637  |  Link
Xirix
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I've just tried madvr, disabled exclusive mode, it seemed to be fine, but it's using my processor considerably more than any of the other renderers were, is there a way to tone it down? I know it's a super high quality renderer, but I'm only trying it out because practically all the others renderers available to me have been problematic.
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Old 20th February 2011, 14:56   #5638  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by Xirix View Post
is there a way to tone it down? I know it's a super high quality renderer, but I'm only trying it out because practically all the others renderers available to me have been problematic.
Try setting all scaling to bilinear and disabling dithering.
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Old 20th February 2011, 15:05   #5639  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by noee View Post
Yes, it does, but only using the "event trigger" method that is provided. For example, Reclock will trigger an event (NotifyDisplayChange.EXE) that specifically runs the script file "RunEvent.VBS".

YOu'll note that param 4 is the current playback monitor.
Ah, I see, thanks. However, Reclock is only reporting the monitor number. There's no real display management. E.g. if you sometimes have a plasma and sometimes a front projector on the secondary GPU port, Reclock will not help figuring out which of them is currently connected. Of course you can do all that kind of stuff in the script, too, but if you go there, at some point you end up writing your own full blown software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xirix View Post
I've just tried madvr, disabled exclusive mode, it seemed to be fine, but it's using my processor considerably more than any of the other renderers were, is there a way to tone it down? I know it's a super high quality renderer, but I'm only trying it out because practically all the others renderers available to me have been problematic.
What do you mean with "my processor"? Do you mean the GPU or the CPU? The CPU is used more because madVR currently does not support DXVA decoding. The Haali Renderer doesn't support DXVA decoding, either, though. So the CPU consumption should be more or less comparable between madVR and Haali. Of course VMR, EVR and Overlay will have much lower CPU consumption if you use DXVA decoding.
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Old 20th February 2011, 15:27   #5640  |  Link
noee
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Ah, I see, thanks. However, Reclock is only reporting the monitor number. There's no real display management. E.g. if you sometimes have a plasma and sometimes a front projector on the secondary GPU port, Reclock will not help figuring out which of them is currently connected. Of course you can do all that kind of stuff in the script, too, but if you go there, at some point you end up writing your own full blown software.
Yep, agree completely, the Reclock solution is, IMO, at best, a hack and completely unacceptable for "end user" types.

Sometimes I think it would be cool if there was a service interface available to players/renderers for display management. The Windows API and accompanying abstractions are lacking.

A well-defined interface that could encapsulate the monitor management, such that all players/renderers could rely on the service, might really simplify the players and set the stage for local/remote multi-mon support.
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