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Old 3rd June 2019, 00:41   #56441  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I wish madVR just had a simple image cropping option that didnt require this zooming stuff and just took the picture as is, 1:1 on the screen, and allowed to cover the edges with a specific amount of black like some projectors allow.
mpc-hc video frame normal size that will do 1:1 presentation or mpc-hc video frame touch from outside. you don't need blackbar detection to use this it may be better not to use it in this case.

with the screen config "define visibile screen area..." you can add black bars and you are cropping the rest of the image.

which is BTW. the opposite of what you wanted before.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 01:02   #56442  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
OK, so I got this to work for the most part, but I can't use NGU scaling anymore even on an RTX 2070 or GTX 1080 when using anamorphic lens option.

I am dealing with 4K tone-mapped video on a native 4K display, so processing starts to get really extreme when it has to upscale chroma and luma and do tone-mapping. Normally there is no luma upscaling because its 4K native on 4K. And when it's 1080p video there is no tone-mapping because its SDR.

It works if I set chroma and luma scaling to Lancosz AR for instance. But if I set chroma and luma to NGU sharp medium even it's like 80-100ms render times even on a 2070 or 1080.

There is no way to make this work without using the anamorphic stretch I'm guessing.

The whole zooming away black bars stuff is what makes it only work if I fill the 16:9 panel with the 2.40:1 video via anamorphic stretch factor 4 / 3.

I wish madVR just had a simple image cropping option that didnt require this zooming stuff and just took the picture as is, 1:1 on the screen, and allowed to cover the edges with a specific amount of black like some projectors allow.
You don't have to use the anamorphic stretch if you don't want to. You can simply define the screen area in screen config and then zoom away the black bars with zoom control. The result should be the same.

If you need to reduce image upscaling, create a separate scaling algorithms profile for 4K content and set it to Lanczos3 + AR. In the end, you should end up with more pixels if upscaling is involved, so it should be worth it.

A 1080p profile could use NGU image doubling. I know there is at least one other person out there using the anamorphic stretch with tone mapping with a lesser GPU. He said he was using a similar combination.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 01:07   #56443  |  Link
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Originally Posted by bcec View Post
All the movies in Nolan UHD set and upcoming Batman/Returns/Forever/&Robin UHD release. Harry Potter UHD releases. There are more, and Warner Bros is the worst offender.

Note that none of these movies had orange-teal grading originally - even in their BD releases. This is something the studio did *after the fact* for 4K releases to make things pop. But it looks awful, not to mention it is not Director's original intent.
It has been said the Nolan movie look orange because they were scanned from the original film negative and no attempt was made to change the original color. So the colorist didn't necessarily change the color tone to make it look that way.

The yellow look of The Prestige was debated several times in the HDR -> SDR tone mapping thread. Many insisted that the color correction from tone mapping must be wrong, but I think that look is authentic to the original source material.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 01:19   #56444  |  Link
huhn
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you can easily test anamorphic lens with any TV and show that you don't need a high end GPU you just need to understand what you are doing. or with other words don't use settings that work without an lens they are very different.

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You don't have to use the anamorphic stretch if you don't want to. You can simply define the screen area in screen config and then zoom away the black bars with zoom control. The result should be the same.
you still need to fix the AR so this will not work. you have to at least use stretch to window in mpc-hc to get it kind of working for 21/9 sources in the end madVR does the same thing just worse and not adaptive.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 01:28   #56445  |  Link
Warner306
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Does it really take that much upscaling just to correct a small portion of a 2.37:1 window? The ratio is almost identical to 2.40:1 by a few pixels. The anamorphic stretch on the projector should do the rest.

I don't know what upscaling is involved with the anamorphic setting. You seem to be able to apply it with or without screen masking, which creates different sized images. The one who told me they were using the anamorphic setting with tone mapping was using something like a GTX 1070 with a special profile for 4K content and upscaling to 4096 x 2160p.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 01:42   #56446  |  Link
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i give you the none complicated example missing out a lot of parts:

3840/21*9=~1646
that means you are upscaling an 3840x1646 image to 3840x2160. that's a lot of work and with doubling not much fun for the GPU.
but it's get's better projector are usually 4096x2160 so if you mess up the settings it's doomsday depending on your setting you may double 3840 to reach 4096.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 02:15   #56447  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
Can you post any screenshot to show how madVR's color correction for tone mapping is removing any SDR color cast? Actually what I often see is the opposite. Color correction for tone mapping is something mandatory, and it's not clear at all the best way of doing it.
See examples below. I didn't say madVR removes color cast. Rather I've seen in the earlier versions of its HDR->SDR conversion was producing some colors inaccurately, sometimes causing a cast. This is long fixed, however my thought process was that perhaps (?) that could be a feature to un-teal + un-orange these movies.

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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
The aim of madVR is to reproduce the content in the most faithful way,
This is not true, there are many features in madVR that enhances the image by changing the source material in one way or another. For instance de-ringing, denoise, thin edges, crispen edges, and the list goes on. It doesn't simply display the given data, it manipulates it in different ways.

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I think what you're asking for could only be solved with an auto white balance feature which could potentially cause more harm than good.
I think it is more complicated. As far as I understand, a blanket white balance wouldn't work because teal/orange conversion is done with something like this:
- apply orange to mids
- apply teal to highlights and shadows
So it would require undoing this, and it would probably be hard, maybe impossible. however madshi does tackle hard things with ease :P

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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
It has been said the Nolan movie look orange because they were scanned from the original film negative and no attempt was made to change the original color. So the colorist didn't necessarily change the color tone to make it look that way.
That simply is BS. See some examples:
dark knight bluray
dark knight uhd

interstellar bluray
interstellar uhd

There are many other 4k rescans from older films, where colors are very accurate (bladerunner, ghostbusters, etc). Warner Bros is clearly applying teal/orange to make things pop. If movie has that look originally (for instance Transformers), then I have no problem. But this change from original material needs to be outlawed.

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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
The yellow look of The Prestige was debated several times in the HDR -> SDR tone mapping thread. Many insisted that the color correction from tone mapping must be wrong, but I think that look is authentic to the original source material.
There's nothing wrong with MadVR right now, it is reproducing The Prestige uhd disk as accurately as it can. However, as I said, UHD release has an awful teal+orange color grading applied to it.
prestige bluray
prestige uhd

Last edited by bcec; 3rd June 2019 at 02:19.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 02:21   #56448  |  Link
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try a synthetic bt 2020 hard clip lut to DCI P3 native on a D65 calibrated screen.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 02:28   #56449  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
i give you the none complicated example missing out a lot of parts:

3840/21*9=~1646
that means you are upscaling an 3840x1646 image to 3840x2160. that's a lot of work and with doubling not much fun for the GPU.
but it's get's better projector are usually 4096x2160 so if you mess up the settings it's doomsday depending on your setting you may double 3840 to reach 4096.
Ok, I understand. You actually lose a lot of pixels by cropping the black bars. A safe setting for image upscaling with 4K content that doesn't use image doubling would help.

Cropping the movie won't change the aspect ratio of the pixels and the height of all aspect ratios is the same. I would think applying the projector's anamorphic stretch to the image cropped from madVR would result in the correct pixel dimensions if the anamorphic scaling doesn't know the aspect ratio of the source.

Last edited by Warner306; 3rd June 2019 at 02:31.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 02:30   #56450  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by bcec View Post
That simply is BS. See some examples:
dark knight bluray
dark knight uhd

interstellar bluray
interstellar uhd

There are many other 4k rescans from older films, where colors are very accurate (bladerunner, ghostbusters, etc). Warner Bros is clearly applying teal/orange to make things pop. If movie has that look originally (for instance Transformers), then I have no problem. But this change from original material needs to be outlawed.


There's nothing wrong with MadVR right now, it is reproducing The Prestige uhd disk as accurately as it can. However, as I said, UHD release has an awful teal+orange color grading applied to it.
prestige bluray
prestige uhd
I don't think it is BS. The original Blu-ray version was color graded as you wanted it to appear. It was Christopher Nolan that didn't want any manipulation of the Kodak film scans. All of his UHD movies distinctly look like old film prints. I don't always like it the look in some of those movies, but I don't think anyone would deliberately color the movie that way.

Last edited by Warner306; 3rd June 2019 at 02:32.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 03:53   #56451  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Cropping the movie won't change the aspect ratio of the pixels and the height of all aspect ratios is the same. I would think applying the projector's anamorphic stretch to the image cropped from madVR would result in the correct pixel dimensions if the anamorphic scaling doesn't know the aspect ratio of the source.
this beats the point of an anamoprhic lens if you can't use most of the pixels. the other very important part an anamoprhic lens it gives you is more brightness you don't have to over throw.
so you should always use as much pixel as possible.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 04:16   #56452  |  Link
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Originally Posted by bcec View Post
Yes, that's what I was talking about. I think that at least in part that's because of the ICtCp color correction, and it's not fixed. It looks too exaggerated in your screenshots, in my case it's not so much. If that's the only cause, you can get rid of that yellow/orange (sometimes even red) cast by checking "compromise on HDR tone & gamut mapping accuracy" under "trade quality for performance", which I think means that the tone mapping in done in RGB. The side effects are an excesive desaturation especially of highlights, and a hue shift of very brigh and saturated greens and reds to yellow which I actually find more pleasant.

Last edited by Alexkral; 3rd June 2019 at 04:23.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 05:46   #56453  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I don't think it is BS. The original Blu-ray version was color graded as you wanted it to appear. It was Christopher Nolan that didn't want any manipulation of the Kodak film scans. All of his UHD movies distinctly look like old film prints. I don't always like it the look in some of those movies, but I don't think anyone would deliberately color the movie that way.
Nolan pulled the same stuff for 2001 re-release.
Warner is doing it again for the upcoming Batman releases (see screenshots)
This is done on purpose. Teal & Orange grading is a thing in hollywood nowadays (read more about why they do it here). I am ok with the artistic choice for a new movie, but I dislike it when they retroactively apply it to an older one that did not have this look before.

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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
Yes, that's what I was talking about. I think that at least in part that's because of the ICtCp color correction, and it's not fixed. It looks too exaggerated in your screenshots, in my case it's not so much. If that's the only cause, you can get rid of that yellow/orange (sometimes even red) cast by checking "compromise on HDR tone & gamut mapping accuracy" under "trade quality for performance", which I think means that the tone mapping in done in RGB. The side effects are an excesive desaturation especially of highlights, and a hue shift of very brigh and saturated greens and reds to yellow which I actually find more pleasant.
There may be other things going on perhaps, but these movies have been regraded with the teal-orange look.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 07:48   #56454  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
Why not? If what you want is just to remove a color cast then it's just a matter of color balancing. Probably not a good idea as you said, and certainly not a job for madVR anyway.
Well, first, because color grading is a shot by shot process, and sometimes even changes in the same shot. You don't color grade an entire movie (or "uncolor grade" it) with a single LUT or a set of slider, that's just not how it works. It would look good in the scene you take as a reference point and bad in every other one.

Even if you created a system that scans every frame and changes colors "on the fly" (a kind of "dynamic color grading"), the end result would probably be shitty anyway because your picture is not raw "flat" neutral footage, but already color graded. One of the many problems I can think of is that teal & orange color grading often purposely crushes blacks you obviously can't "uncrush" with color balancing : the details are already lost. Maybe a talented colorist could mitigate the teal & orange look by manually recoloring the movie shot by shot, but I don't trust an algorithm to understand what looks good to human eyes. Anyway, if you have an algorithm that can do that, I suggest you call Adobe, they'll buy it for sure

Of course, I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but in the meantime, I'll take a carefully graded teal & orange picture over an awkwardly automatically desaturated/recolored one a million times.

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Originally Posted by bcec View Post
This is not true, there are many features in madVR that enhances the image by changing the source material in one way or another. For instance de-ringing, denoise, thin edges, crispen edges, and the list goes on. It doesn't simply display the given data, it manipulates it in different ways.
These features should only be used to restore a picture degraded by several steps of compression. With the exception of denoise/add grain, they don't really mess with the original artistic intent. By contrast, IMO, modifying the movie colors is like giving the director the middle finger.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 10:36   #56455  |  Link
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would switching white balance to a cooler setting negate some of the yellow grading or would that be too course, I noticed this a lot in the 4k interstellar release, I much prefer the 1080p bluray.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 10:40   #56456  |  Link
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I have been testing HDR on the latest build passing thru metadata. HDR mode kicks in perfectly, unfortunatley it gets stuck in HDR mode until I reboot the PC. Is this a known anomaly?
I have the same with FSE, did you use FSE? If so then try fullscreen window mode (FSW).
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Old 3rd June 2019, 11:57   #56457  |  Link
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that why i said try a hard clip 3d LUT.

the bigger meaning behind that was to measure the white point using the same scene and comparing them.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 12:49   #56458  |  Link
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would switching white balance to a cooler setting negate some of the yellow grading or would that be too course, I noticed this a lot in the 4k interstellar release, I much prefer the 1080p bluray.
That most likely won't work, because as I said, color grading is a shot by shot process.

Take Interstellar. This page has comparison screenshots between 1080p & 4K releases : https://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/...-ray-does.html

You can see that some shots are heavily altered, while some others are not modified at all.

Even if modifying white balance actually worked on the shots that most bother you (and TBH I highly doubt the result would look natural...), every other shot in the movie would probably end up blue-ish or looking unnatural in a way or another.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 13:33   #56459  |  Link
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The Human Touch, ruining our movies.. Damn you colorists, y you need so much teal..


if y'all just bump up color temp to 7000-7500k it should take alot of red/green out of the picture.

For example it works well on the latest Broly Funimation bluray

Best done via 3D lut, otherwise the overall balance will be very odd looking.


The bulk of the problem is most likely the studio upgrading to very different grading monitors . The new sony and dolby hdr sets. There's going to be a rough patch in releases for a while, before they dial it in.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 13:36   #56460  |  Link
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if y'all just bump up color temp to 7000-7500k it should take alot of red/green out of the picture.

For example it works well on the latest Broly Funimation bluray

Best done via 3D lut, otherwise the overall balance will be very odd looking.
Read one post above yours. This is often done scene-by-scene, and such a broad approach would ruin the scenes that don't have this treatment.
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