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Old 21st January 2008, 02:36   #141  |  Link
UsedUser
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I think this is a more efficient way too look for interoperability between X264 and Hardware Decoding doing this via a Directshow based Player like Mplayer Classic and Haali or other Parser (embedding the bitstream into MKV/Mp4/AVI) connecting to Cyberlinks Decoder or others (will most probably result in problems, because of the differences how they are designed and like each other))
Well, it's disconcerting that we've arrived at contradictory results using the same decoder (Cyberlink) and same hardware (NVIDIA 8800GT).

However, I've gotten the same results despite the container (testing raw AVC, MKV, MP4), and despite the player (ZoomPlayer, MPC HC, or PowerDVD).

If a clip shows corruption, it shows corruption in the same way, at the same time, no matter the container or player.

I did test the previous clips with an ATI HD2600 and saw similar corruption results. I will have to test these new clips to see if the results are consistent.
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Old 21st January 2008, 03:11   #142  |  Link
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Mabye there are differences in the Quality between G92 Chips and their BSP/VP2 Core (would be bad, but i doubt it). Or maybe your problems arise because of Mainboard Chipset problems (so something with the data transfer of the bitstream to the card goes wrong, to slow or gets corrupted on the way to the Core, defective Memory ?, overclock problems?).
Such Problems could pretty well exist i remember the non 100% compatible Via Chipsets to the PCI standard back in the 90s
Btw i knew this would happen, more and more people are coming and reporting about Hardware Decoding Problems, but most probably alot of them are guys that have bad non standard complaint bitstreams so suffer from the num_ref_frame problem or level_idc flag problem.
To tell most of those that probably all their streams are useless and need to be reencoded (for some generations of Hardware) especialy those that suffer from the num_ref_frame problem is hard

A Mod should made a Sticky and send those people into this thread or they gonna swap all around the board about Hardware Decoding Problems.

Hardware Decoding Problems analysed so far:
Num_ref_frame overusage = Results in a Black Screen (workaround is existing by changeing the num_ref_frame flag but no 100% fix solution most probably reencoding is needed)
level_idc flag wrong = Result is a Black Screen aswell as B-frame decoding problems resulting in either stuttering frames or desecending fps like the 20 fps bug (also has todo with Parser/Splitter/Decoder combination) (workaround is existing by changeing the level_idc flag works 100%)
Wrong --sar = Result is a Black Screen (also here a workaround is exisiting and can fix the encodes but most probably they will be wrongly displayed then on Hardware Decoders)
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Last edited by CruNcher; 21st January 2008 at 03:47.
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Old 21st January 2008, 03:44   #143  |  Link
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I added some 720p results. DPB=7 or 8 is fine. DPB=9 is too much.

I think overall, DPB=8 as a max for 720p is a better recommendation, no matter the patches. DPB=3 is generally safer for 1080p, as well.
That implies that the DPB limit is somewhat less than the max allowed by level 4.1 (in particular, that it's between 11059200 and 12441600 bytes whereas level 4.1 is 12582912), so I'd like to know exactly what it is.
Could you encode a variety of resolutions, and determine the max usable number of refs for each?
e.g. encode 1280x720 ref9, 1264x720 ref9, 1248x720 ref9, ..., until one works
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Old 21st January 2008, 04:36   #144  |  Link
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Current Trunk (--bframes 0 --ref 9/10 --level 4.1 --sar 1:1)
1280x720 ref10 <- x264 [warning]: DPB size (13824000) > level limit (12582912) (sporadic block errors, still good watchable)
1280x720 ref9 <- OK

--bframes 4 --ref 9 --b-pyramid --level 4.1 --sar 1:1
1280x720 <- OK
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Old 21st January 2008, 07:15   #145  |  Link
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Ugh. Well, I have to apologize. It looks like something is definitely wrong with my Nvidia 8800GT setup. I won't be testing there anymore until I get it figured out.

I had been testing everything on both my 8800GT setup and my ATI HD2600PRO setup, until the box with the ATI card had a meltdown.

Now, I've rebuilt that box and did some testing.

All the "grimm" clips look good on the HD2600. No block errors, no corruption, just framerate issues that are resolved by changing to L3.1.

I retested the experimental patches as well. Each of the three experimental patches, and the DPB patch by itself (i.e., svn-721), all showed good playback with DXVA. No corruption issues. DPB=9 @ 720p is still the max, as DPB=10 black screens. DPB=4 @ 1080p is still the max as well. But it doesn't appear that either B-frames or B-Pyramids present an issue with the DPB patch.

Looks like I was leading things in the wrong direction. CruNcher, thanks for checking against my results. I will retest every encode I made since the beginning and see what results I get.

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Old 21st January 2008, 08:16   #146  |  Link
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I found another Problem with --sar and Haalis Splitter in combination with Cyberlinks Decoder, it doesn't accept the AR from .MKV files only the Bitstream SAR but when muxed in .MKV it doesn't get the Bitstreams SAR anymore (seems Haalis Splitter can't provide it to the Decoder) and so displays it as 1:1 (Directshow Problem).
Videolan and Mplayer have no problem with this they seem to Parse the Bitstream SAR also when the Bitstream is embeded in .MKV.
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Old 21st January 2008, 08:27   #147  |  Link
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I found another Problem with --sar and Haalis Splitter in combination with Cyberlinks Decoder, it doesn't accept the AR from .MKV files only the Bitstream SAR but when muxed in .MKV it doesn't get the Bitstreams SAR anymore (seems Haalis Splitter can't provide it to the Decoder) and so displays it as 1:1 (Directshow Problem).
Videolan and Mplayer have no problem with this they seem to Parse the Bitstream SAR also when the Bitstream is embeded in .MKV.
Yes. So i started to encode SD rips with par/dar 1:1, and resize it to for example 1024x576 if source is 720x576.
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Old 21st January 2008, 08:35   #148  |  Link
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Yeah but unfortunately that won't work for my Mini-HD-DVD Project if i wan't to maintain Hardware Compatibility and Small Bitrate Resolutions (1440x1080,1280x1080), but ok the question remains if i ever take the bitstream into .MKV after that, most probably then MP4 or let it stay in EVO and that should work allways without problems Hmm strange with the Overlay Mixer it works but as soon as you go Fullscreen baam 1:1.

Edit: This really gets over strange now with Overlay Mixer even streams playback that showed a Black Screen before, jesus alot in this regards is messed up with Haalis Splitter and Cyberlinks Decoder, ahh ok no real hardware acceleration then Video: YUY2 1920x1088 (16:9) 29.97fps strange some work in Overlay Mixer with Hardware Accelleration some don't a real chaos
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Old 21st January 2008, 17:05   #149  |  Link
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Edit: This really gets over strange now with Overlay Mixer even streams playback that showed a Black Screen before, jesus alot in this regards is messed up with Haalis Splitter and Cyberlinks Decoder, ahh ok no real hardware acceleration then Video: YUY2 1920x1088 (16:9) 29.97fps strange some work in Overlay Mixer with Hardware Accelleration some don't a real chaos
Yes but there isn't acceleration like you say. You can disable DXVA in Cyberlink Decored with WMR 7/9 and you will get picture. Only with DXVA, black screen is showed
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Old 22nd January 2008, 02:41   #150  |  Link
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Yes but i would love to have the whole time Hardware Accelleration working, without thinking about either how to encode stuff correctly or about the combinations of Parser/Splitter/Renderer that allow me to achive that task, this is as unfriendly as it can get (and standards are normaly exactly their to prevent such interoperability problems)
The problem in this case with Matroska and Cyberlinks Decoder is that Matroska is no standard and Cyberlink doesn't support it and so the only one that can try to solve this problems is Haali himself.
I would really like to use Matroska the whole time i really like it but such stuff really makes me think of this again and not better stay with MP4 and avoid such problems entirely for all Hardware Capapble Decoders @ the moment and in the future. Also the fact that all the new Devices support MP4 nowdays is a big bonus, that's why i love Sonys PSP and the concept of portability 1 Stream just move it and play it (no reencoding), that's how everything should work so you can watch your SD AVC encode on your PC,PS3 and just take it on the go to your PSP without doing anything (thats user friendliness) (and im happy that UMD failed so horribly or we for sure wouldn't have had this possiblity so fast) but ok that's over also now that we have on our PCs no SD anymore but HD so we have to reencode again, but therforce we have a big quality gain also for our portable devices
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Old 22nd January 2008, 11:19   #151  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CruNcher
Yes but i would love to have the whole time Hardware Accelleration working, without thinking about either how to encode stuff correctly or about the combinations of Parser/Splitter/Renderer that allow me to achive that task, this is as unfriendly as it can get (and standards are normaly exactly their to prevent such interoperability problems)
That will be nice really but Cyberlink decoder is restricted as you know.

Combination mkv->cyberlink is prue horror now
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Old 22nd January 2008, 13:08   #152  |  Link
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Finally b-pyramid is working on PSP. However I've noticed one corrupted frame when the thunder hits the tree.
http://www.mediafire.com/?dxdytdmddzk

Everything is fine without b-pyramid
http://www.mediafire.com/?0mmu111invm
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Old 23rd January 2008, 19:06   #153  |  Link
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Finally b-pyramid is working on PSP. However I've noticed one corrupted frame when the thunder hits the tree.
http://www.mediafire.com/?dxdytdmddzk

Everything is fine without b-pyramid
http://www.mediafire.com/?0mmu111invm
Playing those 2 in Hardware Mode on Nvidia via Cyberlink for both the FPS slows down after 7 seconds of playback (it drops suddenly from 24 down to 17 and goes lower and lower) i don't like that. Have to check more carefully whats couseing this. (Useing MPCHC standard MP4 Parser gonna try Haalis).

Drag and Drop into PowerDVD shows the same deacerllerating playback speed problems after 7 seconds so it seems no parser problem @ all. (I would guess level is wrong it looks like the same problem as the continuis 20 fps playback problem just that the fps is constantly droping down over time (maybe when hitting b-frames?). (Or Mp4box is buggy and does something wrong, wouldn't suprise me really :P) gonna check the bitstream.

Bitstream alone shows no playback Problems in Hardware Mode. Muxing with Mp4creator and Mp4box with and without sound and gonna check again


I:\test>mp4creator -create=logo.h264 -rate=23.976 test.mp4
Error decoding sei message

hmmm

ok worked anyways but still decreasing the fps, looked @ the bitstream and the only thing i can see is that their are 2 pp following after a sequence of pbpbpbpbpbpb but could be also pure accident that it slowdown @ the same time as those 2 pp appear in the stream, as the bitstream alone has no playback problems inside of PowerDVD with Hardware accelleration

@UsedUser could you confirm this Problem with your Nvidia Card and Cyberlinks Decoder in combination with Atak_Snajperas Samples please, i also wrote something allready about this decreasing fps problem when i still had my 7600 GS and i think i found a strange workaround @ that time for it , note the decreasing fps also happens with this stream in any other container.
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Old 23rd January 2008, 20:54   #154  |  Link
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Playing those 2 in Hardware Mode on Nvidia via Cyberlink for both the FPS slows down after 7 seconds of playback (it drops suddenly from 24 down to 17 and goes lower and lower) i don't like that. Have to check more carefully whats couseing this. (Useing MPCHC standard MP4 Parser gonna try Haalis).
I have this problem only when i use wrong level. For example when i use level higher than 3.1 for SD (720x576)
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Old 23rd January 2008, 21:19   #155  |  Link
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Nope the problem is another and i found a workaround i think allready for this @ the time it had todo with direct_pred mode

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=124945
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=127712

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EDIT: OK i hope once and forall i found it, it seemes to be the direct_pred option that couses trouble with Cyberlink and PV1 DXVA i found a workarround by useing temporal but after creation of the .mp4 in either avidemux or mencoder it is damaged even if you use temporal prediction you have to first extract the raw stream (from the corrupted .mp4 you get from avidemux/mencoder (it might look ok but it isn't not for the combination of Haali Spliter and Cyberlink Decoder)) with yamb (mp4box) for example and create a new .mp4 this fixes the slowdown problem with Cyberlink once and for all if your stream was set on direct_pred=none/spatial/auto then you won't be able to mux the demuxed raw stream correctly with mp4box again it will end with a damaged .mp4 (not finished) direct_pred=temporal is the only way that i found that avoids this slowdown and remuxing problems with mp4box (FINALY)
Im not sure if that really was the problem but @ that time it fixed those slowdowns and i know it was a PAL sequence that i had problems with so the resolution of the stream is not the problem

@Atak_Snajpera
could you redo this sample useing --direct temporal
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Old 23rd January 2008, 21:41   #156  |  Link
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The result is even worse in this clip. At the end you will see nice dancing blocks

http://www.mediafire.com/?a0j0tgqzbid
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Old 23rd January 2008, 22:30   #157  |  Link
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Nope the problem is another and i found a workaround i think allready for this @ the time it had todo with direct_pred mode
I am not sure, because i saw this problem first time when i encode with Elecard Converter Studio 2.0. When i do a single pass VBR everything was fine, but when i do two passes, clip got 20fps bug. I dont know how to change prediction mode in elecard.

btw in Ateme Digital Serie by default is temopral selected, and with ateme i don't have any problems with DXVA
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Old 23rd January 2008, 22:43   #158  |  Link
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No no the problem isn't the 20fps bug its much much worse then that, the Framerate is decreasing constantly after about 5 seconds of playback with Cyberlinks Decoder, that's much much worse then if it would just playback constantly @ 20 fps , but only in .MP4 .MKV useing Cyberlinks Decoder over Directshow not with the Bitstream itself in Cyberlinks PowerDVD. But also with Mainconcepts Bitstream parser via Directshow and Cyberlinks Decoder (only allways in Hardware Decoding Mode).

@Atak_Snajpera
Yep and it's still decreasing so that isn't the problem (i slowly belive this is either an VBV problem or Cyberlinks Decoder is somehow bugged with this kind of streams when reading them from a container but dunno why this is the case, but it's really the worst case scenario for Hardware Playback via Cyberlinks Decoder and DXVA) Looking @ the stream again i see this 2 pp frames exactly @ the time the problem seems to beginn hmmm (could be also just pure coincidence tough).




Could you please post the complete encoding settings and all stuff you used to create this stream (Encoding/Muxing)

Also i would really like to know if ATIs UVD Decoder shows the same problems with Cyberlinks Decoder in Hardware Mode with this clip.

Could you also please cut a longer version it's hard to see what's happening in Cyberlinks PowerDVD with the MP4 i think it's not the same whats happening in a Directshow Player tough i can see that some Frames go missing, but i can't see the extreme FPS decrease it's going to fast black and i can't be sure that the fps would decrease over the whole time of the playback as it does in a Directshow Player. In MPCHC i'ts very obvious to identify that the FPS is constantly decreasing as playback is very fast slowdowned.

With Hardware Decoding Enabled (Cyberlink Decoder,VMR9 Renderless)



The FPS is constantly decreasing from 23-24 fps after around 5 secs

Hardware Decoding Disabled (Cyberlink Decoder,VMR9 Renderless)



Everything is fine

I tried it with all Mp4 Splitter (Internal Mp4 Splitter,Mainconcept Mp4 Demultiplexer, Haali, Cyberlink-7 Mpeg-4 Splitter) allways the same result in Hardware Mode
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Old 24th January 2008, 01:29   #159  |  Link
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I was talking about playback on PSP not PC.
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Old 24th January 2008, 01:53   #160  |  Link
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Yes but this is also Hardware Playback and that problems are visible here means there could be problems visible on other Devices (in wich form they showup is another thing).
If X264 is not full hardware compatible then you will get errors in many forms on many devices and those don't have to be the same problems.

So please post your settings and the exact way you created this stream also wich tool you used for muxing, and if possible a longer sample that has some other frames where you could see slowdowns visually , also try to use VBV and see if that fixes your problems on the PSP (im gonna test on my PSP as soon as i have updated it with the latest M33 firm, didn't used it for a long time now)

But yeah i suspect that this decreasing FPS problem is more a Cyberlink Decoder in combination with Splitter problem than a X264 hardware problem, but i wan't to know wich settings causeing this decreasing fps behaveiour with Cyberlinks Decoder and certain X264 streams
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