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Old 7th December 2017, 16:10   #1261  |  Link
Groucho2004
 
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Furthermore, all those cards do is add room heat, as well as fan noise.
Do you think if you offload your filtering needs to the CPU it will create less heat?
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Old 7th December 2017, 16:42   #1262  |  Link
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Hardly surprising with 4 calls to the filter and d=3, a=8. Even a GTX1080 would struggle.
Not to mention that you're running it in 6 threads which just consumes GPU memory and probably slows it down even further.
Correct. Sometimes filters need to be stacked to be useful. Doing so makes them unusable. Been there, done that. But time changes that, and eventually stacking is negligible. Been there, done that too.

I deal with videos that others consider impossible. But sometimes "impossible" is merely a temporary state.

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Do you think if you offload your filtering needs to the CPU it will create less heat?
Since I'd rarely use the card's GPU, yes. The CPU isn't running 100% 24/7/365, as I'm not encoding constantly. But a video card would be on 24/7/365, thus heat and noise, neither of which are needed or wanted.
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Old 7th December 2017, 16:43   #1263  |  Link
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KNLMeansCL will make the script crawl at about 1fps.

It's an ugly nth gen video with horrible chroma errors. I wrote a script that will suffice, with about 10fps, but the above is better -- but only in quality, not speed. The 1-hour video would take 165+ hours to process, which is not reasonable.
You may look at my short tutorial to how to tweak the settings. Your D and A settings are insane. Not even the dragon ball z level set need that high of an A.
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Old 7th December 2017, 16:57   #1264  |  Link
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The CPU isn't running 100% 24/7/365, as I'm not encoding constantly. But a video card would be on 24/7/365, thus heat and noise, neither of which are needed or wanted.
What do you mean by "a video card would be on 24/7/365"? What applies to the CPU also applies to the graphics card. If they're idle (at least with modern devices), they consume very little power. Your logic is flawed.
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Old 7th December 2017, 17:59   #1265  |  Link
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This was my same conclusion. It has a lot of potential -- but in the next decade sometime, when CPU and/or GPU is faster. I've already been through this -- 90s filtering not usable until 2000s, 00s filter not until 10s. Right now, it's little more than a tease.

Goodbye KNLmeansCL, may we meet again!

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Old 7th December 2017, 18:00   #1266  |  Link
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I agree that the D & A settings are a major contributor to the slow speed. I've done a lot of performance checks, and setting either of these much above the defaults will slow things to a crawl. Setting them both above the defaults, and you definitely are going to be taking the proverbial slow boat to China.
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Old 7th December 2017, 18:25   #1267  |  Link
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What do you mean by "a video card would be on 24/7/365"? What applies to the CPU also applies to the graphics card. If they're idle (at least with modern devices), they consume very little power. Your logic is flawed.
The computer is on 24/7/365, thus so would be a graphics card.

I have no graphics card, and am using the Intel 530 HD graphics built into i7-6700 using Asrock motherboard.

The CPU is extremely cool when idle -- much lower than graphics cards. Right now, it has mild load, and is only at 25. I have a Noctua on it. I think the TDP of an average fancy graphics card is something like 2x-3x that of a CPU. At best, a graphics card would be in the 30s or 40s when "idle", maybe higher. And I put that in quotes because there's really no "idle" on graphics cards, compared to CPUs, it just gets hot or hotter.

It gets worse when you pay extra for a graphics card to heat the room, then pay again to have the AC cool the room, plus all the fan noise from BOTH the graphics card fan and the AC. When I built this rig, cooling and noise was the priority, with an i7-6700K being required for horsepower.

BTW: The Intel 530 does seem to use GPU on KNLmeansCL, even if the OpenCL must be 0 in the script. The GPU is still 3x faster than pure CPU with the above script. GPU is about 15% CPU on 4 threads, while 100% CPU on 8 threads is 3x slower.

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You may look at my short tutorial to how to tweak the settings. Your D and A settings are insane. Not even the dragon ball z level set need that high of an A.
Insane values for insanely bad nth gen VHS. That wasn't my script, but I'll continue to play with it. So far, trying to lower values would just disable the good it was doing on the video.

Not sure what the Dragonball reference is to.
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Old 7th December 2017, 18:39   #1268  |  Link
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Right now, it has mild load, and is only at 25. I have a Noctua on it. I think the TDP of an average fancy graphics card is something like 2x-3x that of a CPU. At best, a graphics card would be in the 30s or 40s when "idle", maybe higher. And I put that in quotes because there's really no "idle" on graphics cards, compared to CPUs, it just gets hot or hotter.
TDP is mostly irrelevant for the idle/load power consumption, it just tells you how much the chip can handle.
Idle consumption of a 1060/70 for example is about 5-7 W, see here.

Anyway, I give up. I suggest you try to gather some facts before posting.
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Old 7th December 2017, 18:54   #1269  |  Link
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TDP is mostly irrelevant for the idle/load power consumption
I disagree. It's a pretty good guide for what temperatures you can expect, both at idle and 100%. Again, I get 25 from a CPU with mild load, but an "idle" GPU would easily be in the 30s-40s or more, at least doubling my system heat output. TDP suggested it. TDP of that CPU is about 90, while TDP of most fancy graphics cards are well into the 100s-200s.
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Old 7th December 2017, 19:14   #1270  |  Link
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I disagree. It's a pretty good guide for what temperatures you can expect, both at idle and 100%. Again, I get 25 from a CPU with mild load, but an "idle" GPU would easily be in the 30s-40s or more, at least doubling my system heat output. TDP suggested it. TDP of that CPU is about 90, while TDP of most fancy graphics cards are well into the 100s-200s.
I can see that measurements and facts are not your thing. Good luck with your future endeavours.
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Old 7th December 2017, 20:00   #1271  |  Link
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The CPU is extremely cool when idle -- much lower than graphics cards. Right now, it has mild load, and is only at 25. I have a Noctua on it. I think the TDP of an average fancy graphics card is something like 2x-3x that of a CPU. At best, a graphics card would be in the 30s or 40s when "idle", maybe higher. And I put that in quotes because there's really no "idle" on graphics cards, compared to CPUs, it just gets hot or hotter.

It gets worse when you pay extra for a graphics card to heat the room, then pay again to have the AC cool the room, plus all the fan noise from BOTH the graphics card fan and the AC. When I built this rig, cooling and noise was the priority, with an i7-6700K being required for horsepower.
If your computer can cook a room so hot that you need an AC to counter it, there's something wrong with your cooling solution. My computer sits right next to my mouse-using hand and my hand was ice cold during winter time.

TDP are more correlated to watt usage, it has no relationship whatsoever as to temperature Celsius, your information is wrong. Running 100% of a 250 TDP graphic card does not mean the card goes to 250 degrees Celsius. Most modern cards stayed in the 70s on full loaded.

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Originally Posted by lordsmurf
Insane values for insanely bad nth gen VHS. That wasn't my script, but I'll continue to play with it. So far, trying to lower values would just disable the good it was doing on the video.

Not sure what the Dragonball reference is to.
Something like this.
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Old 7th December 2017, 20:18   #1272  |  Link
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If your computer can cook a room so hot that you need an AC to counter it, there's something wrong
You must not live in the south, where it's hot almost year round. It was 80 F just 2 days ago, and the AC started running (thermostat set to 79). When you have a computer pumping out heat, and heat outside, life is miserable. A computer does make the AC kick on, and run so much that it can seize. So the goal is to limit heat output as much as possible. A computer can make a room a good 5 degrees hotter minimum, and I've seen it as much as 10 in years past.

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TDP are more correlated to watt usage, it has no relationship whatsoever as to temperature
Direct correlation, no. But indirect, yes, absolutely. TDP is a statement about thermal output. There is data to extrapolate there. It's not 100% divorced from heat output.

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Running 100% of a 250 TDP graphic card does not mean the card goes to 250 degrees Celsius.
I never said it did.

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Most modern cards stayed in the 70s on full loaded.
I've seen cards run well in the 80s or 90s.

I think you're missing my point: Whether it's 70 or even 35, it's more than 0, which is what the computer has now. And I'm better for it. The atypical GPU video filter won't sway me on iota into "upgrading". If really needed, I can borrow one from a gamer I know.

This filter looks great, but no amount of GPU will really give it a usable boost if the filter is being pushed beyond default minimums.

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Something like this.
That video is absolutely flawless compared to the mess I'm working on.

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2005 IEEE Computer Society Conference on Computer Vision and Pattern Recognition.
I refer to the Avisynth filter, not the algorithm. You've made a great filter, ahead of its time. But we lack the horsepower to really push it. Please take that as the compliment it is.
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Old 8th December 2017, 00:01   #1273  |  Link
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I disagree. It's a pretty good guide for what temperatures you can expect, both at idle and 100%. Again, I get 25 from a CPU with mild load, but an "idle" GPU would easily be in the 30s-40s or more, at least doubling my system heat output. TDP suggested it. TDP of that CPU is about 90, while TDP of most fancy graphics cards are well into the 100s-200s.
I realize that historically I have had absolutely zero success in convincing the various doom9 forums nutjobs I've encountered over the years of anything, but for the record... I currently have, in the computer right next to me, a top of the line graphics card powering my 4k monitor. It's 300mm long, it's got 8GB VRAM, it's got three big honking fans on it, and it'll clock up to somewhere north of 1.9GHz if it needs to. It's got more than twice the TDP of my CPU, at an impressive 180W. As you can see, this monster is turning the room into a sauna even when idling:



oh. uh. well.
The fan readout isn't bugged by the way, the card has a ginormous heatsink on it and the fans are intentionally stopped when the GPU is near idle.

Compare this to the old faithful i5 CPU which is actually using more power (almost a whole watt more! what a waste!) and running its fan at a few hundred RPM:



Also, lol at the idea of even trying to measure the heating effect the dissipation of these monstrous 30-ish watts of energy has on an entire room. An oldschool light bulb in a desk lamp would put out more heat! Even 300 watts is pretty much peanuts when it comes to space heating. It's an absolutely trivial amount of heat in relation to the thermal inertia of even a small apartment.

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Old 8th December 2017, 00:20   #1274  |  Link
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what about new high-end laptops? it will not use the dedicated gpu and use the one in the cpu when idle or even using light things
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Old 8th December 2017, 00:49   #1275  |  Link
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heating effect the dissipation of these monstrous 30-ish watts of energy has on an entire room. An oldschool light bulb in a desk lamp would put out more heat!
It's all additive. This is a main reason we keep lights off when possible, quiet ceiling fans on low/silent. The CFL are supposedly cooler, but some bulbs seem to output just as much heat. Replacing TVs with LCD in the past decade has helped.

After I built this Skylake, it was the first winter where the room actually got chilly a few times.

The 47-C vs 39-C somewhat illustrates my point. It's 20% hotter, even understanding the older Intels weren't all that cool (though AMD was worse). Additively speaking, it's 120% hotter, for both CPU and GPU. With no graphic cards, it'd be 50% cooler. Newer CPU would probably cool that even more, especially if using a Noctua.

TDP of that GPU = 180
TDP of that CPU = 77
Not direct correlation for heat output, but not unrelated. Give both mild load, and that GPU will be curve up far quicker than the CPU. At some point in the graph, it probably will run almost twice as hot.

GPUs would probably run a bit cooler at idle if fans didn't stop at idle, which I've never understood.

It's just a penalty of having a card. I don't need one. I don't need to upgrade for video encoding. Almost nothing takes advantage of GPU encoding, and never did, and has mostly been hype to date.

It is what it is.

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what about new high-end laptops? it will not use the dedicated gpu and use the one in the cpu when idle or even using light things
I like stuff like this. There when needed, not when not. That's the future. We have V8s that cut off 4 cylinders (Chargers), and it'd be nice to see desktop have similar switching abilities. No idea how that'd be engineered.

Another neat item for next decade.
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Old 8th December 2017, 01:11   #1276  |  Link
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I don’t think you understand how any of this works. Thermodynamically speaking almost all the electrical energy going into the computer will be converted to thermal energy. If the GPU and the CPU are using the same amount of energy but one is hotter than the other because it’s not running its fans, then that means it’s actually transferring less energy to the surrounding air (and by extension, heating your room less). The temperature of the silicon really isn’t interesting at all here. An incandescent 40W light bulb has a wire heated to over 2000 degrees Kelvin in it, and yet it’s sure as heck not putting out more than 40W of heat. Physics!

Here’s a topical but completely pointless bit of trivia: an average human body dissipates an average of around 100W of energy as heat. Slow your metabolism and eat less to make your room less hot!

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Old 8th December 2017, 01:52   #1277  |  Link
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You may look at my short tutorial to how to tweak the settings. Your D and A settings are insane. Not even the dragon ball z level set need that high of an A.
Update:

So I pulled back KNLmeansCL settings as much as possible, attacking only the worst of the video. It still needs a lot of work, but I'm getting about 10fps using the Intel GPU with MT in x64 Avisynth+.

I can attack the remaining issues with faster filters. None are as good as the pure KNLmeansCL in terms of end result quality, but will suffice.

Thanks for the tips.

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I don’t think you understand how any of this works. Thermodynamically speaking almost all the electrical energy going into the computer will be converted to thermal energy.
As far as TDP/heat/etc:

A 40W bulb also has no fan, but the heat emanates into the room. The computer has ventilation, the computer is a conductor, the card has ventilation, heat emanates out the card, thus into the room. Also science.

And you're still missing my point. Having no card = 0, any card = more than 0. The card will expel heat, be it passively or actively (fan). I want a compute to compute, not double as a room heater in the summer. Because it does raise a room by at least 5 degrees here, if not more. If you're in New York or Colorado or Canada or somewhere, you may not run into that problem.

Again, TDP isn't a direct measure of heat expelled by a given system. But it's also not a measurement of mere power consumption. For example, given the TDP numbers against your heat measurement, I have to wonder if the CPU heatsink is inadequate, or needs a re-seat/re-paste. That's what the numbers tell me. It also tells me to expect the GPU to run hotter, though probably not 2x hotter realistically. Those are why the numbers exist.

Anyway, whatever... I have encoding to do now.
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Old 8th December 2017, 12:44   #1278  |  Link
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lordsmurf!
Some time ago I am spoken author about paper also. After some test and try I am found that for interlaced source (fields) better value for s=1, for s=2 (default value) filtered image will be more softer.
Decreasing s from 2 to 1 increasing speed. Also for color planes (not luma) can using easy setting.
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Old 8th December 2017, 13:10   #1279  |  Link
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The 47-C vs 39-C somewhat illustrates my point. It's 20% hotter,
Never divide temperature values in Celsius, if necessary, do it in Kelvins. You'll get a 2,5% instead. (But what really counts, the excessive heat, it is the deltaT)
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Old 8th December 2017, 16:13   #1280  |  Link
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lordsmurf!
Some time ago I am spoken author about paper also. After some test and try I am found that for interlaced source (fields) better value for s=1, for s=2 (default value) filtered image will be more softer.
Decreasing s from 2 to 1 increasing speed. Also for color planes (not luma) can using easy setting.
yup.
Thanks. I'll remember that.

Unfortunately, this time, it didn't make any noticeable difference on quality or speed. It may simply be due to this clip and the longer 4x call script.

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Never divide temperature values in Celsius, if necessary, do it in Kelvins. You'll get a 2,5% instead. (But what really counts, the excessive heat, it is the deltaT)
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