madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[yesgrey]

Originally Posted by xv

madVR does not accept my 3dlut file, it says "This 3dlut file does not match the output format required by madVR".
Output_Range 0 255

That's PC levels, and madVR wants video levels output. Try changing it to 16 235. Then, in madVR, select your display as 0-255 and it will do the stretch for you. However, madVR is not working OK with the 3DLUT. So, until he fixes it, v0.61 should be used by who wants to use their 3DLUTs.

[xv]

Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8

maybe you need to define output_format as well

Yes that´s it, if I add "Output_Format HD RGB_Video 16" it works, also files are identical except the part where the config file is stored (cause all settings of Output_Format are overridden by the other options).

Originally Posted by yesgrey

That's PC levels, and madVR wants video levels output. Try changing it to 16 235. Then, in madVR, select your display as 0-255 and it will do the stretch for you. However, madVR is not working OK with the 3DLUT. So, until he fixes it, v0.61 should be used by who wants to use their 3DLUTs.

I noticed that, but madVR doesn´t care about that. What`s wrong with madVR and 3dlut (except it is buggy in detecting correct 3dlut files)?

[Andy o]

Originally Posted by madshi

What kind of error message is? A Windows crash box? A text appearing in the madVR rendering area? Something else? What does the error message say?

It's been happening for a while, but I didn't put much thought into it cause works fine with other decoders and you were busy with more important stuff. I just mentioned it cause of the recommendation to use ffdshow-mt. I'll reproduce the problem and post logs and other info.

The gist of it: it's a message, but it's not a Windows crash message, the file mentioned is mvrsettings.dll. The video keeps playing, and the message gives me 3 options I think, close, continue and something else. Clicking on continue keeps the file playing, and the problem doesn't happen again until MPC-HC is closed and opened again.

[noee]

AndyO, I believe that is actually a runtime exception "catch", so yeah, it's probably something that needs attention. Does it give you an option to email madshi? I've seen that catch dialog before, but it's been a while, actually, IIRC, I haven't seen it since .49.

[Andy o]

Can't seem to reproduce it anymore, but it was there up till at least 0.61 I think. I didn't test again until 0.64 right now, so not sure where it got fixed. If I get it again, I'll post everything.

[luke823]

I'm a little confused on video levels. If I set madvr to tv levels, and then have rgb full selected in the catalyst control center, isn't the video card going to end up expanding the output from madvr?

[JaylumX]

Hello Madshi. Can i please request that there is an option in Display Modes in Madvr that stops Madvr switching to ones desired resolution/refresh-rate unless the Media Player is in full screen mode

Cheers

[Andy o]

Originally Posted by luke823

I'm a little confused on video levels. If I set madvr to tv levels, and then have rgb full selected in the catalyst control center, isn't the video card going to end up expanding the output from madvr?

The native RGB levels on the PC is 0-255. When you set that to "limited" on pixel format (not the video tab, that's different and does nothing with madVR), then the output is compressed to 16-235, so whenever possible you wanna stick to 0-255 "full" on pixel format.

madVR takes the native 16-235 video and expands it to 0-255, the levels of the PC, with fancy processing (which you need to avoid such things as banding). If you tell madVR to output 16-235 you're telling it not to expand, and so you will see gray blacks (16) and gray whites (235), because they already came like that on the video.

[luke823]

Originally Posted by Andy o

The native RGB levels on the PC is 0-255. When you set that to "limited" on pixel format (not the video tab, that's different and does nothing with madVR), then the output is compressed to 16-235, so whenever possible you wanna stick to 0-255 "full" on pixel format.

madVR takes the native 16-235 video and expands it to 0-255, the levels of the PC, with fancy processing (which you need to avoid such things as banding). If you tell madVR to output 16-235 you're telling it not to expand, and so you will see gray blacks (16) and gray whites (235), because they already came like that on the video.

That I understand, but this is what I'm having a hard time with. Below are comments from madshi:

No. With RGB Full, the data rendered by madVR is sent to the display 1:1 without any changes. Only this way madVR can guarantee highest quality. With RGB Limited, the GPU driver stretches the data behind madVR's back, which will damage image quality.

So if we're not supposed to use rgb limited, then what is the purpose of madvr having a tv levels setting?

[fairchild]

Originally Posted by luke823

That I understand, but this is what I'm having a hard time with. Below are comments from madshi:



So if we're not supposed to use rgb limited, then what is the purpose of madvr having a tv levels setting?

What Andy said is somewhat correct, but not entirely.

If you have an ATI card that sends unmolested 0-255 then it depends on the capability of your display. For example, on my system with my 5830 through it's HDMI port feeding the signal to my Panasonic plasma HDTV, you can have it setup two correct ways:

Pixel Format: RGB Limited
MadVR: PC Levels

or

Pixel Format: RGB Full
MadVR: TV Levels

The latter should provide the best quality and gives full BTB + WTW same as my Blu-ray player provides.

The problem for me and using RGB Full is that my desktop and games look a bit off and there is black crush going on.

[Andy o]

"the data rendered by madVR" maps 1:1 to the 0-255 levels that RGB Full gives you (native). Whatever you choose, 0 will be mapped to 0, 16 to 16, 235 to 235 and 255 to 255. Since RGB Limited pixel format messes with the levels at the latest stage, right before output to your display, then madVR can't do anything in that case.

madVR probably has the 16-235 option so you can expand to 0-255 with other filters if you wish.

[luke823]

Originally Posted by fairchild

What Andy said is somewhat correct, but not entirely.

If you have an ATI card that sends unmolested 0-255 then it depends on the capability of your display. For example, on my system with my 5830 through it's HDMI port feeding the signal to my Panasonic plasma HDTV, you can have it setup two correct ways:

Pixel Format: RGB Limited
MadVR: PC Levels

or

Pixel Format: RGB Full
MadVR: TV Levels

The latter should provide the best quality and gives full BTB + WTW same as my Blu-ray player provides.

The problem for me and using RGB Full is that my desktop and games look a bit off and there is black crush going on.

In your latter example, wouldn't madvr output 16-235 only to have it expanded by the video card on rgb full? Wouldn't you want to match up rgb limited and tv levels to stay at 16-235 all the way through? (And likewise rgb full + pc levels)? Just trying to understand.

[Andy o]

Originally Posted by fairchild

What Andy said is somewhat correct, but not entirely.

If you have an ATI card that sends unmolested 0-255 then it depends on the capability of your display. For example, on my system with my 5830 through it's HDMI port feeding the signal to my Panasonic plasma HDTV, you can have it setup two correct ways:

Pixel Format: RGB Limited
MadVR: PC Levels

or

Pixel Format: RGB Full
MadVR: TV Levels

The latter should provide the best quality and gives full BTB + WTW same as my Blu-ray player provides.

The problem for me and using RGB Full is that my desktop and games look a bit off and there is black crush going on.

But that's a display which is not designed for computer RGB signals, or has a bug. It's not how it should work ideally, and not only it doesn't work well when you use madVR, it doesn't work well when you do anything that requires good image quality on your PC, like viewing photographs.

[Andy o]

Originally Posted by luke823

In your latter example, wouldn't madvr output 16-235 only to have it expanded by the video card on rgb full? Wouldn't you want to match up rgb limited and tv levels to stay at 16-235 all the way through? (And likewise rgb full + pc levels)? Just trying to understand.

RGB full is native output. It doesn't expand anything. RGB limited compresses everything at the last step. I think you got it backwards.

[fairchild]

Originally Posted by Andy o

madVR probably has the 16-235 option so you can expand to 0-255 with other filters if you wish.

Again, this varies from display to display. On my setup if I use RGB Full pixel format in CCC and then set MadVR to PC levels (0-255) I get black crush and get no BTB or WTW (regardless of what input/output values are used in the video decoder). So obviously this is not the correct way in my setup. Once I set MadVR to TV levels, voila I get full BTB and WTW and no color clipping exactly like my set top blu-ray player.

Originally Posted by Andy o

But that's a display which is not designed for computer RGB signals, or has a bug. It's not how it should work ideally, and not only it doesn't work well when you use madVR, it doesn't work well when you do anything that requires good image quality on your PC, like viewing photographs.

I don't agree. My Sony EX400 LCD behaves in the same exact way as my plasma. To get full BTB and WTW you have to do exactly as I listed. Not every display works the same so it's up to the user to see what works best with his/her setup. I also have no idea what you meant by your second statement.

[Mikey2]

Originally Posted by noee

Uhhh, how about ffdshow (ffmpeg-mt).

I've also had the most luck using this decoder; however, I have an older graphics card (NVidia 8600 GT) and a good CPU (Q6600 ...making sure to set the decoding threads to "4" in ffdshow decoder options since it is a quad-core CPU) so it benefits me to do the decoding in software (ffdshow) thus freeing the GPU for rendering. (I have tried everything from TMT, Cyberlink (HAM and regular Video Decoder) etc...it seems to just come down to having the available processing power to do the "real" work that affects picture quality in MadVR. (I know I have mentioned this elsewhere, but I felt it worthwhile to mention/ask in this context since this recent discussion has raised some doubts...)

Am I missing anything here or losing out of anything doing it this way, or are people just trying to avoid software decoding?

also...

madshi (or anyone else) - I posted a question in another thread to not muddy up this one; however, I do not think many people saw the thread: Can any of you do me a favor and take a look?

Basically I was asking -Does GPU Anti-aliasing (or any other GPU settings, specifically those in the NVidia 3D control panel, have any affect on video-quality? (that should link to the thread...))

Thanks much! I LOVE these constant builds of this wonderful renderer! (And I look forward to a ring-less Lanczos algorithm - I always start with that for luma upscaling but often switch to Spline if the Ringing is too pronounced.)

[Andy o]

Originally Posted by fairchild

Again, this varies from display to display. On my setup if I use RGB Full pixel format in CCC and then set MadVR to PC levels (0-255) I get black crush and get no BTB or WTW (regardless of what input/output values are used in the video decoder). So obviously this is not the correct way in my setup.

Your display is clearly clipping 0-15 and possibly 236-255. I.e. it is not designed to receive computer signals, or there's a bug in the ATI driver, or there is a bug on the display's firmware. The "correct" way IMO is the way to set up madVR where everything is working as it should, within reason. Since your displays don't work with computer RGB signals then what you're doing is more strictly speaking a workaround. Semantics, I know, and your recommendation still stands but only if he's having these kinds of troubles.

Once I set MadVR to TV levels, voila I get full BTB and WTW and no color clipping exactly like my set top blu-ray player.

The BTB and possibly WTW are still being clipped by your displays. Since there is no info on BTB and very little if any on WTW, it doesn't matter and you don't miss anything. The blu-ray player probably doesn't output computer RGB levels, so it works fine with the display.

I also have no idea what you meant by your second statement.

When you're using RGB full with your display (because it clips 0-15) and madVR set to 16-235, even though that's the optimal setting for most video usage, everything else will be crushed, just like you're seeing crushed blacks with your games, it will happen with everything else, including photographs and websites (and most web video as well).

If you set RGB limited and madVR to 0-255, then RGB limited will compress all the output, so you might see banding on everything, video and photographs.

[fairchild]

Originally Posted by Andy o

When you're using RGB full with your display (because it clips 0-15) and madVR set to 16-235, even though that's the optimal setting for most video usage, everything else will be crushed, just like you're seeing crushed blacks with your games, it will happen with everything else, including photographs and websites (and most web video as well).

If you set RGB limited and madVR to 0-255, then RGB limited will compress all the output, so you might see banding on everything, video and photographs.

Yep, so that's why when I game (which is the only thing that I really care about getting black crush, I don't browse the net or do anything else where I'd notice the black crush) I usually just switch to RGB Limited or just up my Brightness on my TV. I think the best method is switch to RGB Limited when I'm going to game.

[Andy o]

FWIW, there were many (from sampling the AVS users at the ATI 5000 thread there, probably most) displays that were having trouble with ATI's RGB Full output, even though they supposedly were able to receive the 0-255 signal. I and only a handful of others had it working right, and from what I remember, we had Pioneer displays. That was a long time ago though, I don't know if those users are still experiencing it, so it could be a bug in the ATI driver.

[Andy o]

Originally Posted by fairchild

Yep, so that's why when I game (which is the only thing that I really care about getting black crush, I don't browse the net or do anything else where I'd notice the black crush) I usually just switch to RGB Limited or just up my Brightness on my TV. I think the best method is switch to RGB Limited when I'm going to game.

Wait, if you raise the brightness on the TV and gain back the black crush detail, then your display is not clipping. How did you calibrate it? Does it have an option for getting RGB 0-255 or 16-235? Mine has automatic and manual switching between both.

If you are using RGB full, and raising the brightness gains you back the black levels that you lost in the games, then you can use madVR in 0-255 in the very same way.