madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) - Page 2224

ryrynz · 29th July 2017, 03:10

Ya know, I always thought the higher the hz the more likely it was to have more blended frames.. Would if be wise to allow madvr the ability at higher refresh rates to change the ratio?

Asmodian · 29th July 2017, 03:32

Change which ratio?

ryrynz · 29th July 2017, 04:04

The amount of blended frames so its smoother. Couldn't you do approx half blended half repeated for example?

huhn · 29th July 2017, 04:18

where do you get this info it is the % of blended frames goes down with higher refresh rates.

Asmodian · 29th July 2017, 06:11

I just spent a long time attempting to quantify exactly how much less blending happens as the refresh rate increases.

24.00000 Hz = 99.80% blended, 50% average blend
30.00000 Hz = 79.82% blended, 40% average blend
48.00000 Hz = 49.85% blended, 25% average blend
59.94006 Hz = 40.03% blended, 20% average blend
60.00000 Hz = 39.86% blended, 20% average blend
75.00000 Hz = 31.87% blended, 16% average blend
120.0000 Hz = 19.88% blended, 10% average blend
144.0000 Hz = 16.62% blended, 8% average blend

My Excel Spreadsheet if anyone is interested or wants to check my work.

Q-the-STORM · 29th July 2017, 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryrynz

The amount of blended frames so its smoother. Couldn't you do approx half blended half repeated for example?

The point of madVRs smooth motion is to make it as smooth as 24Hz, not even more smooth than 24Hz. If you want it smoother, look into things like SVP...

ddjmagic · 29th July 2017, 13:07

When using FSE mode with seek bar enabled, should I see a pointer once I move the mouse to the bottom of the screen bringing up the seek bar?
I see the seek bar but I don't know where the pointer is to actually click and seek, or is the seek bar just intended as a reference point to look at?

burfadel · 29th July 2017, 13:20

Cursor should show, try updating your display driver. Latest are 17.7.2 for AMD and 384.94 for Nvidia.

ryrynz · 29th July 2017, 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Q-the-STORM

The point of madVRs smooth motion is to make it as smooth as 24Hz, not even more smooth than 24Hz. If you want it smoother, look into things like SVP...

24Hz is not smooth though. The point of smooth motion is to make things more smooth and it was my opinion based on madshi's post about it that higher refresh rates lead to more blends which meant better motion resolution and smoothness.. but if Asmodian's calculations are correct then what madshi said about higher refresh rates being better is actually linked to the fact that's only because smooth motion is doing less.

Anyway, don't recommend SVP as an alternative to smooth motion, they're quite different and IMO not comparable with one another, also I dislike its results.

vivan · 29th July 2017, 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryrynz

24Hz is not smooth though. The point of smooth motion is to make things more smooth

"Smooth motion" emulates 24hz refresh rate on a screen with a different refresh rate. It does so by blending adjacent frames, which is basically pixel response time increased by 1/refresh rate (for some frames, not all).

Does watching video on a screen with 16ms response time makes it smoother? Kinda, but it's a very questionable thing to do.

ddjmagic · 29th July 2017, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by burfadel

Cursor should show, try updating your display driver. Latest are 17.7.2 for AMD and 384.94 for Nvidia.

I've tried 384.94 (I was a version behind) but same thing. I actually don't get a mouse cursor at all in FSE.

bcec · 29th July 2017, 22:07

Anybody having issues with 3D playback? When fullscreen, my 1080@24p frame-packed playback is playing as if contrast is cranked up 1000%. Only chroma upscaling is enabled.

EDIT: Turning off OS level HDR setting solved the issue. For some reason, Full Screen exclusive 3D (1080@24) + OS HDR turned on causes extreme contrast and clipped highlights and shadows with madVR. Maybe a bug?

Q-the-STORM · 29th July 2017, 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryrynz

24Hz is not smooth though. The point of smooth motion is to make things more smooth and it was my opinion based on madshi's post about it that higher refresh rates lead to more blends which meant better motion resolution and smoothness.. but if Asmodian's calculations are correct then what madshi said about higher refresh rates being better is actually linked to the fact that's only because smooth motion is doing less.

Anyway, don't recommend SVP as an alternative to smooth motion, they're quite different and IMO not comparable with one another, also I dislike its results.

The point of smooth motion is to make 24fps video at 60Hz smoother than it is, but not smoother than 24Hz would be... the point of smooth motion is to get as close to what 24Hz looks like on any given Hz (assuming your video is 24fps)...
Yes, 24fps is not smooth and smooth motion is not there to make it smoother than the framerate of the video...

at 60Hz it might look/feel a bit smoother because the alogrithm can't perfectly mimic 24Hz (which is impossible), but if madshi could code something that would perfectly show 24Hz at 60Hz, that is exactly what smooth motion would do.... it's not there to make 24fps video smoother, it's there to remove the additional jerkiness that 24fps video at 60Hz (or other Hz mismatches) produces, to get as close to the "perfect" 24Hz as possible... that's why smooth motion doesn't do anything if you play 24fps video at 48Hz, 72Hz, 96Hz or 120Hz, because in those cases, you see every frame the exact same amount of time you would see them at 24Hz (assuming your display doesn't fuck something up)

That's why I brought up SVP, because it is doing what you are expecting from smooth motion, to make it smoother than the original framerate....

SVP and smooth motion have very different objectives and are not alternatives for each other....
what you are expecting from smooth motion is the exact goal of SVP - video that is smoother than the original framerate.... it's just that SVP doesn't do it by frame blending...
though if I remember correctly, you can set SVP to frame blend instead of using it's regular algorithm, which seems to be exactly what you are after, frame blending as much as possible, to get the smoothest video, without getting the artefacts that motion interpolation algorithms introduce...

ryrynz · 29th July 2017, 23:53

My point is that anything other than frame blending is doing more than just making presentation smoother. I'm happier with the TV's interpolation rather than SVP.

ryrynz · 29th July 2017, 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Q-the-STORM

Yes, 24fps is not smooth and smooth motion is not there to make it smoother than the framerate of the video...

And yet this is exactly what it does.. There is a night and day difference between me running at near perfect 24hz (1 frame drop per 8hrs etc) and running at 60hz with SM.

pirlouy · 30th July 2017, 01:39

I doubt it. I did not see differences between 24Hz and 60Hz SM. I think 60Hz SM is still better for 60Hz panel (it's not sure they can do real 24 or 48 Hz).
For 120Hz panel TV, "near perfect 24Hz" + TV interpolation (not too much to avoid soap opera) is so perfect: no soap opera + no "24fps judder".

ryrynz · 30th July 2017, 02:35

I can clearly see it on my TV regardless, it's obvious on pans.

digitech · 30th July 2017, 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryrynz

And yet this is exactly what it does.. There is a night and day difference between me running at near perfect 24hz (1 frame drop per 8hrs etc) and running at 60hz with SM.

and which do you like the most?

ryrynz · 30th July 2017, 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by digitech

and which do you like the most?

Depends on the content. For normal films I prefer the extra movement resolution so I go with 24hz, for Anime it'll vary but generally I'd go 60hz with older animated stuff as I have this sharpened and thinned so the resolution loss is mitigated but I get the much smoother object movement.

Dorohedoro · 30th July 2017, 08:05

Ok I'm really happy right now and I want to give my thanks to madshi for this amazing rendered.

Finally I was able to emulate the motion I see on the theaters and it was really easy at the end. I'm using a custom 23.974hz refresh rate but with my projector (x5000) I can still see a distracting flicker/judder on bright scenes if there is panning, on fast motion scenes or in some actor close up scenes, I've solved the problem using madvr smooth motion "only if there is judder" option. Now the flicker is gone, but also with this refresh rate there is no visible ghosting and the motion is flawless just like in my local theater, thank you so much and thank good I had enough patience to keep triying different combinations in the options because I hate 60hz and also the ugly ghosting smooth motion has in 60hz, and I really hate frame interpolation.... but if you try that option in 24p the outcome is amazing (remember to use "If there is judder" option under smooth motion settings).

Thank you so much madshi for giving us so many options to play with.

29th July 2017, 03:32	#44462 \| Link
Asmodian Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: San Jose, California Posts: 4,407	Change which ratio? __________________ madVR options explained

29th July 2017, 06:11	#44465 \| Link
Asmodian Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: San Jose, California Posts: 4,407	I just spent a long time attempting to quantify exactly how much less blending happens as the refresh rate increases. 24.00000 Hz = 99.80% blended, 50% average blend 30.00000 Hz = 79.82% blended, 40% average blend 48.00000 Hz = 49.85% blended, 25% average blend 59.94006 Hz = 40.03% blended, 20% average blend 60.00000 Hz = 39.86% blended, 20% average blend 75.00000 Hz = 31.87% blended, 16% average blend 120.0000 Hz = 19.88% blended, 10% average blend 144.0000 Hz = 16.62% blended, 8% average blend My Excel Spreadsheet if anyone is interested or wants to check my work. __________________ madVR options explained

29th July 2017, 22:07	#44472 \| Link
bcec Registered User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 81	Anybody having issues with 3D playback? When fullscreen, my 1080@24p frame-packed playback is playing as if contrast is cranked up 1000%. Only chroma upscaling is enabled. EDIT: Turning off OS level HDR setting solved the issue. For some reason, Full Screen exclusive 3D (1080@24) + OS HDR turned on causes extreme contrast and clipped highlights and shadows with madVR. Maybe a bug? Last edited by bcec; 30th July 2017 at 05:41.

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29th July 2017, 03:10	#44461 \| Link
ryrynz Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,650	Ya know, I always thought the higher the hz the more likely it was to have more blended frames.. Would if be wise to allow madvr the ability at higher refresh rates to change the ratio?

29th July 2017, 04:04	#44463 \| Link
ryrynz Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,650	The amount of blended frames so its smoother. Couldn't you do approx half blended half repeated for example?

29th July 2017, 04:18	#44464 \| Link
huhn Registered User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7,923	where do you get this info it is the % of blended frames goes down with higher refresh rates.

29th July 2017, 13:07	#44467 \| Link
ddjmagic Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 110	When using FSE mode with seek bar enabled, should I see a pointer once I move the mouse to the bottom of the screen bringing up the seek bar? I see the seek bar but I don't know where the pointer is to actually click and seek, or is the seek bar just intended as a reference point to look at?

29th July 2017, 13:20	#44468 \| Link
burfadel Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,229	Cursor should show, try updating your display driver. Latest are 17.7.2 for AMD and 384.94 for Nvidia.

29th July 2017, 23:53	#44474 \| Link
ryrynz Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,650	My point is that anything other than frame blending is doing more than just making presentation smoother. I'm happier with the TV's interpolation rather than SVP.

30th July 2017, 01:39	#44476 \| Link
pirlouy _ Join Date: May 2008 Location: France Posts: 692	I doubt it. I did not see differences between 24Hz and 60Hz SM. I think 60Hz SM is still better for 60Hz panel (it's not sure they can do real 24 or 48 Hz). For 120Hz panel TV, "near perfect 24Hz" + TV interpolation (not too much to avoid soap opera) is so perfect: no soap opera + no "24fps judder".

30th July 2017, 02:35	#44477 \| Link
ryrynz Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3,650	I can clearly see it on my TV regardless, it's obvious on pans.

30th July 2017, 08:05	#44480 \| Link
Dorohedoro Registered User Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 79	Ok I'm really happy right now and I want to give my thanks to madshi for this amazing rendered. Finally I was able to emulate the motion I see on the theaters and it was really easy at the end. I'm using a custom 23.974hz refresh rate but with my projector (x5000) I can still see a distracting flicker/judder on bright scenes if there is panning, on fast motion scenes or in some actor close up scenes, I've solved the problem using madvr smooth motion "only if there is judder" option. Now the flicker is gone, but also with this refresh rate there is no visible ghosting and the motion is flawless just like in my local theater, thank you so much and thank good I had enough patience to keep triying different combinations in the options because I hate 60hz and also the ugly ghosting smooth motion has in 60hz, and I really hate frame interpolation.... but if you try that option in 24p the outcome is amazing (remember to use "If there is judder" option under smooth motion settings). Thank you so much madshi for giving us so many options to play with.