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Old 7th November 2015, 14:25   #34081  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Wouldn't it make more sense to try and perfect the detection so that it "always" works? Then you wouldn't ever have to switch it off. I don't really like if algos are unstable, so that you have to manually enable/disable them. I want madVR you to be able to configure madVR once and then never touch the settings again.
I agree, but I wonder if it's possible. I was watching a stream of Undertale the other day, a game that has a lot of black in it (the palette during battles is mostly black and white), and the algorithm seemed to get confused, occasionally cropping out even non-black areas. On another occasion, it cut off part of someone's webcam, which was partially overlaid on the game.

These videos aren't readily available since I had to download them off twitch and Youtube, but maybe I can make a reduced sample. Unfortunately that might involve large parts of the video to find where it goes wrong, which I'm not sure I have time for.

Last edited by Ver Greeneyes; 7th November 2015 at 14:27.
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Old 7th November 2015, 14:43   #34082  |  Link
madshi
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Umm... If this is my wish realization - it's work not as expected. In my case this variable always equal to the name of first device in devices list, not actual device of player window
Seems to work fine here. Are you sure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
I agree, but I wonder if it's possible. I was watching a stream of Undertale the other day, a game that has a lot of black in it (the palette during battles is mostly black and white), and the algorithm seemed to get confused, occasionally cropping out even non-black areas. On another occasion, it cut off part of someone's webcam, which was partially overlaid on the game.

These videos aren't readily available since I had to download them off twitch and Youtube, but maybe I can make a reduced sample. Unfortunately that might involve large parts of the video to find where it goes wrong, which I'm not sure I have time for.
Hmmmm... How about setting up a profile then which enables black bar detection for videos which have a typical movie resolution (use "uncroppedSrcWidth" and "uncroppedSrcHeight"), e.g. for 1920x1080, 720x480 and 720x576 videos? That would cover PAL DVD, NTSC DVD and HD.
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Old 7th November 2015, 14:49   #34083  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm wondering whether I should remove the SuperRes sharpness setting again and hard code it to 2, since it seems to be the one which produces the most faithful reconstruction of the "ground truth"?
My real world tests also made me prefer St4/Sh2 from the get-go but in cases when sxbr25 is too soft and sxbr50 too sharp it seems somewhat reasonable to go St4/Sh1, of course I'd far prefer a sxbr strength slider.

It would also be great if chroma SR could get the same update as luma SR if any possible please.
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Old 7th November 2015, 14:52   #34084  |  Link
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How to improve image quality?

Hello, anyone have any suggestions to improve my settings?

LAV filter decoder=software.
madVR DX11 FSE (1080P24/1080P60)
Output: 10 bit madVR + 12 bit Nvidia control panel -> Sony Bravia XBR-46HX929.

SD:
Chroma: Jinc + AR
Image: Jinc + AR
Double Luma: 1.2x or greater - NNEDI3 64 Neurons
Double Chroma: 1.2x or greater - NNEDI3 32 Neurons
Quadruple Luma: 2.4x or greater - NNEDI3 64 Neurons
Quadruple Chroma: 2.4x or greater - NNEDI3 32 Neurons
Downscaling: Catmull-Rom + AR + LL
Upscaling Refinement: Adaptive Sharpen (strength: 0.2)
Artifact Removal - Debanding: Low/High
Image Enhancements: Off
Dithering: ED2 + Use Colored Noise

720P:
Chroma: Jinc + AR
Image: Jinc + AR
Double Luma: 1.2x or greater - NNEDI3 64 Neurons
Double Chroma: Off
Downscaling: Catmull-Rom + AR + LL
Upscaling Refinement: Adaptive Sharpen (strength: 0.2)
Artifact Removal - Debanding: Low/High
Image Enhancements: Off
Dithering: ED2 + Use Colored Noise

1080P:
Chroma: Jinc + AR
Image: Jinc + AR
Double Luma: Off
Double Chroma: Off
Downscaling: Catmull-Rom + AR + LL
Upscaling Refinement: Adaptive Sharpen (strength: 0.2)
Artifact Removal - Debanding: Low/High
Image Enhancements: Off
Dithering: ED2 + Use Colored Noise


There is some advantage in using Super-xbr in Chroma?

What is better NNEDI3 + Adaptive Sharpen or NNEDI3 + SuperRes?
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Old 7th November 2015, 14:52   #34085  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hmmmm... How about setting up a profile then which enables black bar detection for videos which have a typical movie resolution (use "uncroppedSrcWidth" and "uncroppedSrcHeight"), e.g. for 1920x1080, 720x480 and 720x576 videos? That would cover PAL DVD, NTSC DVD and HD.
That would work for DVDs, but I watch a lot of 1080p Youtube videos (1080p and 720p are both very common for Youtube and twitch). Anyway, I think it would be of more use to you if I just got you samples where it unexpectedly fails - I'll enable it and keep an eye out
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Old 7th November 2015, 14:53   #34086  |  Link
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madshi
My config: W7, AMD 15.2 driver
The problem: When source is video (29,97) and "force video mode' option is on, display does not switch to 59 rate, but swtches to 23.
If I set to 'video mode' using keyboard shortcut display switches.
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Old 7th November 2015, 15:03   #34087  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Does EVR behave differently? Switching DXVA deinterlacing on/off is a complicated thing in madVR. Doing it all the time when the video switches those flags on/off could introduce a small stutter every time that happens. So I'm not sure if that's a good idea. How often does your stream switch back and forth?
It was Intel QS decoding in LAV filters. Switching to DXVA2 or disabling hardware decoding solves the problem.
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Old 7th November 2015, 16:24   #34088  |  Link
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madshi, quick question, could Error Diffusion be doubling the cpu usage? Thanks!
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Old 7th November 2015, 18:03   #34089  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Are you sure you used the same strength in both? I've double checked and compared and if I setup the same strength, I get a similar increase in brightness in madVR's version and the latest experimental shaders. Please note that madVR runs the shaders in TV levels instead of PC levels, which means you may have to fine tune strength a bit to get the same effect. I think I used 1.0 strength in the shaders, and 0.9 in madVR, and got pretty much identical results.

The brightness increase totally vanishes if I run AdaptiveSharpen in linear light. So my impression is that the fix implemented by bacondither is not sufficient yet.

If you have a different opinion then please post comparison screenshots where using the shader HLSL files shows less brightness increase than madVR's implementation, although you've carefully matched sharpeness strength.
Gonna send you results via PM.

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The last part is very important: "if the source isn't optimal". It's true that super-xbr "enhances" ringing artifacts that are already in the source, while NNEDI3 instead reduces them. That's one of the very nice things about NNEDI3. super-xbr should not introduce new ringing artifacts if the source is clean. But already existing ringing artifacts are enhanced the same way valid lines and details are enhanced. I'm not sure if it's fair to fault super-xbr for that.

Today many Blu-Rays are relatively clean with only low amount of ringing. I think for those super-xbr should work pretty well. If you are watching a lot of low quality content with strong ringing in it, then obviously NNEDI3 is the much better choice for that.
Yeah, I said that super-xbr is mostly fine for BDs.
However, "mostly" is not "always" though. I don't know from what medium the Lighthouse example, which Warner306 posted, originates, but it shows some nasty haloing with super-xbr and it doesn't seem to be a crappy web video.

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I wouldn't say that. Using sharpness values over 75 should not introduce artifacts. But it might enhance already existing artifacts. Which is a quite important difference.
With a sharpness of 100, you get very fat lines compared to NNEDI3, which is less of a case with a sharpness of 75 (which is mostly softer than NNEDI3). Due to the line thickening, aliasing gets more visible with cartoons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
With this test image (which you found, IIRC), SuperRes does introduce a certain amount of aliasing:

http://madshi.net/SuperResTest.png
This source however is already a bit aliased without any scaling (it has some ringing too).
I don't know about such fines structures. Maybe it is correct that they look aliased when they are upscaled, since this could be how the image would look like if it was created in that size in the beginning?
Maybe it's just a problem with very tiny pictures (or huge scaling factors).

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I've been using this test image to do some more SuperRes related tests. Here are my conclusions:

1) Linear light vs gamma light: If you downscale the image in LL, and then use SuperRes with GL, the lines get too thin. If you downscale the image in GL, and then use SuperRes with LL, the lines get too thick. The only way to reproduce the proper line thickness is to use either GL or LL for both downscaling and SuperRes. Which means that unfortunately I will probably not be able to remove the "linear light" SuperRes option, because the optimal value will not be the same for all sources.
Yeah, I did a ground truth comparison with a game screenshot with bright and dark fonts which lead me to the same conclusion.
However, with content "in the wild", I've found the thickening of LL SR more annoying than the brightness increase of gamma light in the meantime. Image gets brighter, but unlike traditional sharpen filters, it doesn't look "bleached" to me. And white fonts hardly become thicker with GL SR unless they are really on a very dark to black background, unlike black letters with LL SR.


Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
2) Using linear light, different SuperRes sharpness values produce different artifacts. It seems that a sharpness value of 2 produces the least amount of artifacts.
Yes. For this reason, I now use SR with the default values instead of strength 2 and sharpness 3. They end up mostly with the same sharpness and thanks to your optimizations, 3 passes are affordable now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
3) A radius of 0.66 produces some aliasing. A radius of 1.00 means SuperRes adds no aliasing, but SuperRes also loses some of its effectiveness/sharpness. Values between 0.66 and 1.00 show some aliasing and some sharpness loss. I'm not sure which radius I should use. Maybe a compromise would be 0.80 or something like that?
0.8 looks already blurrier to me.
This can make sense however with very low-res content or high scaling factors. What about simple heuristics that decide the radius depending on the scaling factor? With a high scaling factor, the effect of SuperRes is much more perceivable, so the slight regression of sharpness wouldn't hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm wondering whether I should remove the SuperRes sharpness setting again and hard code it to 2, since it seems to be the one which produces the most faithful reconstruction of the "ground truth"?
Sharpness of 2 is definitely most useful.
Hm, but there could be the case when you want to use SuperRes, but can only afford 2 passes, and still you don't want to miss out on some additional sharpness. In this case, a sharpness of 3 could still make sense. Would probably still look better than additional LumaSharpen.
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Old 7th November 2015, 20:26   #34090  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Seems to work fine here. Are you sure?
Yes.
With 3 devices in list (in that order):

Samsung LE40B530 HDMI
LG Display LP156WF4-SPB1
Dell 2707WFP

when attached 1 and 2 - variable display="Samsung LE40B530 HDMI" always
when attached 2 and 3 - variable display="LG Display LP156WF4-SPB1" always

this script (in group created for dithering):
if (display = "Samsung LE40B530 HDMI") "Samsung"
elseif (display = "LG Display LP156WF4-SPB1") "LG"
elseif (display = "Dell 2707WFP") "Dell"
else "None"

when only one device is active - variable is set right ("None" profile is never set actual)

madVR right to detect actual device (devices use different bitdepth in Exclusive FS so it's easy to check in debug OSD, correctly detect exact display rate, etc), but not set right variable.
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Old 7th November 2015, 22:27   #34091  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
My real world tests also made me prefer St4/Sh2
Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Sharpness of 2 is definitely most useful.
Good to hear we're all on the same page. So I've removed the sharpness option now and set it to the algo which produced the best results in my test (near to sharpness value 2, but not identical).

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
With a sharpness of 100, you get very fat lines compared to NNEDI3
Maybe the new line thinning algorithm in v0.89.14 helps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
This source however is already a bit aliased without any scaling (it has some ringing too).
I don't know about such fines structures. Maybe it is correct that they look aliased when they are upscaled, since this could be how the image would look like if it was created in that size in the beginning?
Maybe it's just a problem with very tiny pictures (or huge scaling factors).
I'm not sure. Of course we could just stick to a 0.66 radius and wait for users to complain about aliasing problems with real world material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
However, with content "in the wild", I've found the thickening of LL SR more annoying than the brightness increase of gamma light in the meantime.
Yes, same here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Yes. For this reason, I now use SR with the default values instead of strength 2 and sharpness 3. They end up mostly with the same sharpness and thanks to your optimizations, 3 passes are affordable now.

[...]

Hm, but there could be the case when you want to use SuperRes, but can only afford 2 passes, and still you don't want to miss out on some additional sharpness. In this case, a sharpness of 3 could still make sense.
Strength is not the same as passes. Strengths 2 and 3 have the same performance in madVR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onyx76 View Post
Hello, anyone have any suggestions to improve my settings?

Double Luma: 1.2x or greater - NNEDI3 64 Neurons
Double Chroma: 1.2x or greater - NNEDI3 32 Neurons
Quadruple Luma: 2.4x or greater - NNEDI3 64 Neurons
Quadruple Chroma: 2.4x or greater - NNEDI3 32 Neurons
Chroma doubling/quadrupling is almost useless. I'd disable it, to save performance for other processing algorithms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onyx76 View Post
What is better NNEDI3 + Adaptive Sharpen or NNEDI3 + SuperRes?
I prefer SuperRes, but you decide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
That would work for DVDs, but I watch a lot of 1080p Youtube videos (1080p and 720p are both very common for Youtube and twitch). Anyway, I think it would be of more use to you if I just got you samples where it unexpectedly fails - I'll enable it and keep an eye out
Oh, ok. Well, for weird PC games with lots of black in them, there's a good chance my black bar detection might not work reliably. If I try to optimize for that, I might end up dramatically slowing down detection speed for normal movies, in order to avoid false positives with PC game recordings. Is there maybe some other way you can identify those Youtube/twitch videos via profiles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nlnl View Post
The problem: When source is video (29,97) and "force video mode' option is on, display does not switch to 59 rate, but swtches to 23.
If I set to 'video mode' using keyboard shortcut display switches.
Hmmmm... Which decoder? Software decoding? DXVA copyback? Native DXVA? Does this problem occur with all videos or just some?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markanini View Post
It was Intel QS decoding in LAV filters. Switching to DXVA2 or disabling hardware decoding solves the problem.
Oh, good to hear it was (seemingly) not my fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agustin9 View Post
madshi, quick question, could Error Diffusion be doubling the cpu usage? Thanks!
I don't know for sure. If madVR is spending that CPU usage then it's done in a way that (although it pushes CPU consumption higher) doesn't stop other tasks from being executed. So it's probably not a big problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetLow View Post
when only one device is active - variable is set right
Ah, I understand. I only ever tested with 1 active device. Will add this to my to do list, maybe for next week end, not sure.
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Old 7th November 2015, 22:31   #34092  |  Link
madshi
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madVR v0.89.14 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* added new "sharpen edges" algorithm
* added new "crispen edges" algorithm (tamed FineSharp)
* added new "thin edges" algorithm
* added new "enhance detail" algorithm
* removed SuperRes "radius" option (set to 0.66)
* removed SuperRes "sharpness" option (set near to 2)
* removed LumaSharpen "radius" option (set to 1.0)
* removed LumaSharpen "clamp" option (set to 0.035)
* removed "apply SuperRes first" option (set to true)
* updated AdaptiveSharpen to 2015-11-05 (experimental) version
* optimized "video size has changed" notifications to media player
* optimized aspect ratio overriding API behaviour
You know, I was planning to slow down development for a while, but I just couldn't hold back, so here you go. Maybe I'll manage to concentrate on commercial work now, we'll see...

Try the 4 new algos and let me know what you think, and how they compare in your opinion to SuperRes/AdaptiveSharpen/LumaSharpen. FineSharp lovers, don't cry, the new "crispen edges" algo is a tweaked FineSharp version which doesn't ring and isn't as sensitive to noise, anymore. FineSharp haters, give the "crispen edges" algo a chance, maybe you'll like it now.

Do we still need AdaptiveSharpen and/or LumaSharpen?
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Old 7th November 2015, 22:37   #34093  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Maybe the new line thinning algorithm in v0.89.14 helps?
Sounds like a wonderful thing.
Edit: Oh, there it is already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm not sure. Of course we could just stick to a 0.66 radius and wait for users to complain about aliasing problems with real world material.
I can see some tiny bits of aliasing with SR & leeperry's lighttower image when quadrupling it from 540p to WQHD. However, this seems to be again because the structure is so thin. With LL SR, the dark railing is bigger and shows as good as no aliasing.
But even without SuperRes and just NNEDI3 64, some aliasing can be "guessed", it just seems blurrier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Strength is not the same as passes. Strengths 2 and 3 have the same performance in madVR.
Oops, then I maybe made one mistake in the past when testing around different settings. Weird, but shit happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I prefer SuperRes, but you decide.
I agree, SuperRes takes away that "oil painting" look of NNEDI3 to a more naturalistic one (like super-xbr, but without the drawbacks).
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Old 7th November 2015, 23:05   #34094  |  Link
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Thx for the new version.

I have used finesharp up til now. Can I use the strength-setting from finesharp with the "crispen edges" algorithm (tamed FineSharp)? Meaning setting it to 1 og 1,5 or 2 i will get roughly the same amount of sharpening as I got from finesharp with the same setting.
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Old 7th November 2015, 23:16   #34095  |  Link
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BTW is there any consensus now on the best sharpening settings? I have a fast system and pretty much only watch blu-ray quality material.
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Old 7th November 2015, 23:25   #34096  |  Link
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Fantastic new features.
"sharpen edges" even doesn't increase brightness with a strength of 4 and "thin edges" is a great addition for SuperRes LL or super-xbr.
Very impressive, madshi. Kudos!
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Old 7th November 2015, 23:32   #34097  |  Link
JarrettH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.89.14 released

* added new "sharpen edges" algorithm
* added new "crispen edges" algorithm (tamed FineSharp)
* added new "thin edges" algorithm
* added new "enhance detail" algorithm
Let the madness and testing begin
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Old 7th November 2015, 23:44   #34098  |  Link
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loving the "enhance detail" does wonders for those old xvid files
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Old 7th November 2015, 23:48   #34099  |  Link
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@madshi

- Is there madvr presets like on mpdn? Too much options for noobs.
- Could we get hlsl shader version of your tamed finesharp?
- I think you can remove lumasharpen and adaptive-sharpen too.

Thanks.
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Old 7th November 2015, 23:48   #34100  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
I can see some tiny bits of aliasing with SR & leeperry's lighttower image when quadrupling it from 540p to WQHD. However, this seems to be again because the structure is so thin. With LL SR, the dark railing is bigger and shows as good as no aliasing.
But even without SuperRes and just NNEDI3 64, some aliasing can be "guessed", it just seems blurrier.
So - should we stick with 0.66 for now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budtz View Post
I have used finesharp up til now. Can I use the strength-setting from finesharp with the "crispen edges" algorithm (tamed FineSharp)? Meaning setting it to 1 og 1,5 or 2 i will get roughly the same amount of sharpening as I got from finesharp with the same setting.
I've changed the settings range so that 1.0 is default everywhere (for the 4 new algos). FineSharp had a default of 2.0. So basically with the same "strength" the new algo is twice as strong. However, due to the anti-ring filter and noise modifications, the new algo loses some strength, so you have to try for yourself which new strength you need/like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budtz View Post
BTW is there any consensus now on the best sharpening settings? I have a fast system and pretty much only watch blu-ray quality material.
I've *just* released 4 new sharpening algos, and you're already asking for a consensus? How would that be possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Fantastic new features.
"sharpen edges" even doesn't increase brightness with a strength of 4 and "thin edges" is a great addition for SuperRes LL or super-xbr.
Very impressive, madshi. Kudos!
Glad to hear your first impression is positive. Hope to hear more detailed feedback when you've had some time to do some in depth testing. E.g. since you're an AdaptiveSharpen user, do you prefer AdaptiveSharpen over "sharpen edges"? Or the other way round? And do you like super-xbr better now, in combination with "thin edges"?

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Originally Posted by truexfan81 View Post
loving the "enhance detail" does wonders for those old xvid files
Glad to hear that - but isn't there too much noise/artifacts in those xvid files? The "enhance detail" algo has the side effect of enhancing noise/artifacts together with image detail, so I thought it would mostly be suitable for clean HD sources, only.

-------

Forgot to mention: The new algos are not fully performance optimized yet. So don't put too much weight on their performance. Performance will probably improve at some point in the future.
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