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Old 15th November 2015, 21:43   #34261  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Well, 2X SR improves edges clarity so how about another extra pass on top of it for instance? Most users here don't care about increased GPU load if PQ improves.
Are you sure you wouldn't achieve a 99% identical result with sharpen edges on top of current SR?
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Old 15th November 2015, 21:44   #34262  |  Link
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When next file in a directory is played then the audio is played only. The video freezes at the previous file.
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Does the media player still react to mouse and keyboard events? E.g. can you press the stop button and it reacts?
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Originally Posted by ace960 View Post
The media player reacts. When I press stop button then it is pressed and the sound of the actual file stops playing. The video remains frozen until I close mpc-hc.
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Please activate debug mode, then reproduce the problem, let the media player stay frozen for 20 seconds, then please terminate it with the task manager. Then please zip and upload the log somewhere (not here) for me to look it. Please also create 2-3 freeze reports (Ctrl+Alt+Shift+Pause/Break). Thanks.
I uploaded zipped log and the freeze reports to http://ulozto.net/xPtByEpB/madvr-zip.
note: I generated the files with mpc-hc 1.7.10.5 and madvr 0.89.17.
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Old 15th November 2015, 21:47   #34263  |  Link
rodrigo081089
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Originally Posted by edigee View Post
LAV filters ,DXVA copyback should work with no problems. Of course ,it depends of the HEVC decoding capabilities of the GPU.
AFAIK the only cards that can do that are GTX 960/950. Maybe there are other platforms( integrated GPU/CPU) ,laptops that can do hevc hardware decoding.
Thanks, that fixed my problem. Now it works awesome
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Old 15th November 2015, 22:29   #34264  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Could be worth a try. It does look like it tends to produce heavy aliasing in some situations, but maybe it could be improved by running some sort of smoothing filter. I don't have time for this atm, though.
fair enough. I also created a thread in the avisynth development area for it, if anyone feels up to the task. I'm not an avisynth dev so I can't do it myself but at least I shared the word. maybe it's possible to implement it as an avisynth script though. like I said, pseudocde does look rather easy.
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Old 15th November 2015, 22:42   #34265  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Are you sure you wouldn't achieve a 99% identical result with sharpen edges on top of current SR?
Well, there currently isn't any version that would allow me to A/B 2X SR Vs 1X SR + edges sharpening but anyway it's all subjective, 2X does improve PQ as proven by my screenshots comparison and at the end of the day I like what SR does to motion-blur. All this said, I didn't see any regular sharpening filter competing with a second pass of SR in .16.

And I'd love to try 2X SR + "thin edges"

Last edited by leeperry; 15th November 2015 at 23:26.
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Old 16th November 2015, 00:29   #34266  |  Link
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Amazing results Madshi, thank you! Looking forward to testing the optimized filters tonight.
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Old 16th November 2015, 00:36   #34267  |  Link
Magik Mark
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.89.17 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* significant speedups for "sharpen edges" and "thin edges" algos
* small quality change (hopefully improvement?) for "thin edges"
* fixed: repeated frames were reported although smooth motion FRC was on
Some benchmarks on my development PC:

Code:
AMD HD7750 1080p24:
AdaptiveSharpen: 6.34ms
sharpen edges v0.89.16: 17.15ms
sharpen edges v0.89.17: 9.87ms
thin edges v0.89.16: 25.62ms
thin edges v0.89.17: 5.41ms

Intel HD4000 720p24:
AdaptiveSharpen: 9.92ms
sharpen edges v0.89.16: 36.2ms
sharpen edges v0.89.17: 15.9ms

NVidia GTX650 1080p24
AdaptiveSharpen: 15.51ms
sharpen edges v0.89.16: 27.59ms
sharpen edges v0.89.17: 11.69ms
And yes, the results are weird on the NVidia compared to AMD and Intel. But I've double checked, the results are correct. So "sharpen edges" is now about 50% slower than AdaptiveSharpen on my AMD & Intel GPUs, but 25% faster than AdaptiveSharpen on my NVidia GPU.
It definitely made rendering faster by at least 10ms. All new enhancements running
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Old 16th November 2015, 00:42   #34268  |  Link
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played around with the new version and some settings. I don't really get the negative feedback for the biliteral chroma upscaling. I tried it with some real world movies and TV shows and it does a great job. using the luma information as a guidance seems to me is the best way to do it, so yeah.. it's a good chroma scaler in my eyes.

another thing. can it be that the nnedi3 implementation in madvr doesn't correct the center shift that the algorithm introduces? if I pause a frame and activate luma doubling with nnedi3 (neuron number doesn't matter) I can cleary see that the image content slightly moves.
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Old 16th November 2015, 01:59   #34269  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Sp00kyFox View Post
anyways, I wanted to draw some attention to a new developed downscaling algorithm by ETH Zurich which is called "Perceptually Downscaling" which gets pretty amazing results:
https://graphics.ethz.ch/~cengizo/imageDownscaling.htm

I think that could be a gread addition to madvr. according to the paper the performance of is pretty good (they implemented it with matlab) and it should be possible to execute it in realtime. it seems that they didn't publish the code though but the algorithm is explained in the paper and presented in pseudo code, it only consists of convolutions and sums.
That looks interesting, bit worried about the 'patent pending' though.

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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
not sure about this downscaler. is sharper than bicubic but terrible aliased at the same time.

just look at the hair.

the comparison algorithm are pretty weak to say it friendly.
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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
I concur, if I have to limit myself at the images displayed on that page, the algorithm seems pretty terrible, to be honest. I like a sharp image, but judging from these images one is supposed to watch a Minecraft game, not a movie.

Edit: pictures here are better, though https://graphics.ethz.ch/~cengizo/Fi...ralImages.html

Aliasing is still there, but at least I can see a reason for taking it into consideration. They really ought to change the pics in the homepage.

Edit 2: these https://graphics.ethz.ch/~cengizo/Fi...udyImages.html are even better. Interesting...
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Could be worth a try. It does look like it tends to produce heavy aliasing in some situations, but maybe it could be improved by running some sort of smoothing filter. I don't have time for this atm, though.
The aliasing you're seeing seems to be because they've upscaled the images using point sampling. Presumably to make it easier to see differences (otherwise you'd have to look at a really small image). The other algorithms are simply too blurry to make the aliasing noticeable.

Last edited by Shiandow; 16th November 2015 at 02:26.
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Old 16th November 2015, 02:33   #34270  |  Link
har3inger
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Originally Posted by Sp00kyFox View Post
played around with the new version and some settings. I don't really get the negative feedback for the biliteral chroma upscaling. I tried it with some real world movies and TV shows and it does a great job. using the luma information as a guidance seems to me is the best way to do it, so yeah.. it's a good chroma scaler in my eyes.
Bilateral scaling can be really really good, but also runs into some exceptions that make it look like trash. Any time you have solid red shapes on solid black, Bilateral has zero luma information to draw on and gets ugly at all the edges (happens on logo/studio sequences before films, rare scenes from certain movies, anime) Furthermore, it sometimes "fills to edges" inappropriately, giving a dramatically different image (chroma bleed) from what ground truth is.

It's just not consistent enough to be left on for all video content. 80-90% of the time it's great, the other 10% it looks so bad I think something's corrupted or broken.
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Old 16th November 2015, 08:26   #34271  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.89.17 released
* small quality change (hopefully improvement?) for "thin edges"
Looks a lot more accurate to the source now, I'm seeing less haloing and overall better picture quality. The lines are thicker now at the same settings so people may wish to revisit them.

FWIW, applying thinning after upscaling at a setting of 2.0 seems to look basically identical to doing it @ 1.0 every 2x upscale, you save some rendering time doing it this way also.
Crispen edges almost does nothing (certainly nothing good) when refining after upscaling though.

Madshi, do you think crispen edges goes a little too far? > 2.0 starts to look quite bad. > 3.0 makes me wonder why it's even there.

Last edited by ryrynz; 16th November 2015 at 09:52.
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Old 16th November 2015, 09:46   #34272  |  Link
Anima123
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Originally Posted by Shiandow View Post
The aliasing you're seeing seems to be because they've upscaled the images using point sampling. Presumably to make it easier to see differences (otherwise you'd have to look at a really small image). The other algorithms are simply too blurry to make the aliasing noticeable.
Shiandow, it make me curious if it helps with the overall quality once a good downscaler was adopted into SuperRes.
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Old 16th November 2015, 09:52   #34273  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Thanks for the performance optimizations.
With GTX 980, now Adaptive Sharpen and sharpen edges roughly seem to be equally fast. Adaptive Sharpen is still slightly faster, I get a little lower GPU usage and rendering time with it. So there seems to be a difference to Kepler.
Yep, but roughly equally fast is still different to Intel & AMD, where sharpen edges is still 50% slower than AdaptiveSharpen.

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Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Regarding SuperRes again:
I read here that SR would produce an overly sharp picture to some when doing 1080p -> WQHD. However, I can hardly believe this. I made a sharpness comparison with a game screenshot rendered in WQHD, and despite of SR with strength of 3 on top of Jinc AR scaling, it's still noticeably softer than the original (and much closer to ground truth than just Jinc AR without SR)
Yes, I agree. The only thing that sometimes bothers me is that SuperRes makes the edges sharper but leaves textures untouched. That can make the image look comic like sometimes. But I hope adding a bit of "enhance detail" in the latest madVR build might help there. (Should probably only be used on good sources, though.)

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Well, 2X SR improves edges clarity so how about another extra pass on top of it for instance? Most users here don't care about increased GPU load if PQ improves.
You can't run SuperRes without upscaling first. So this would have to be done by using SuperSampling. I'm not sure if doing that would be worth the extra performance hit. I'd rather try the 4 new sharpening algos instead.

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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Thanks a lot for .17 but apparently 2X is still disabled for SR only? Based on my screenshots comparison, you seemed to agree that 2X SR improves PQ so why not? I got no use for 1X only SR
Do you have the power to make my days have 30 hours instead of 24? If not, then please try to have a bit of patience.

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The CPU is a i7 4790K (HD4600 iGPU), and the discrete GPU is a GTX 980. OS is Win 8.1 64 bit.

What I looked for was to have QS doing the decoding and deinterlacing, and having the GTX 980 doing the resizing. But decoding + deinterlacing on QS was not working properly when using the dGPU for output (as soon as I skipped in the file, playback started grinding), so I tried to debug what was going on, and connected the TV directly to the motherboard HDMI port. That's how I encountered all of the above.
Ok. The combination of Intel GPU with newer OSs and DX11 is known to sometimes cause this frame jumping in madVR. Unfortunately I can't reproduce it on my development PC with my HD4000. I hope this will change once I upgrade to win10, but I don't know for sure yet.

I'll try to reproduce the QS specific problems later, when I find some time.

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is it certain that the bat file really resets all the settings? And that it does not have to be run as administrator?
It works for me, but there's no guarantee. You can double check yourself: The bat file should delete the "settings.bin" file in the madVR folder (if there is one), and it should delete the settings in "HKCU\Software\madshi\madVR". So if you want to be certain, double check that the bat file does all that correctly.

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The frame jumping back and forth is still there though, as are the issues when using the GTX 980 for output and QS for decoding and deinterlacing.
A quick guess on my part: I once had a user reporting problems and after some digging we found out that uploading to the GPU was extremely slow for him, when uploading to RGB textures, but was much faster when uploading to NV12 surfaces. In order to test this, please activate DXVA scaling and zoom into the image a bit, so that DXVA scaling actually gets active. This forces madVR to upload the frames as NV12. When doing that, do the QS problems go away? The subtitle positions are probably a completely different topic.

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Originally Posted by ace960 View Post
I uploaded zipped log and the freeze reports to http://ulozto.net/xPtByEpB/madvr-zip.
note: I generated the files with mpc-hc 1.7.10.5 and madvr 0.89.17.
Thanks, will have a look at this later...

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Originally Posted by Sp00kyFox View Post
can it be that the nnedi3 implementation in madvr doesn't correct the center shift that the algorithm introduces? if I pause a frame and activate luma doubling with nnedi3 (neuron number doesn't matter) I can cleary see that the image content slightly moves.
Fixing the center shift costs performance and quality, and you would never notice the shift when you don't compare to a different algorithm, so that's why madVR does *not* fix the center shift. The situation changes when you use SuperRes because SuperRes requires the center to be unshifted. So in that case madVR does correct the center shift. Also, when using quadrupling, madVR uses NNEDI3 in such a way that quadrupling shifts the center into the opposite direction, so the overall center shift after quadrupling is still there, but smaller than when just using doubling.

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Originally Posted by Sp00kyFox View Post
played around with the new version and some settings. I don't really get the negative feedback for the biliteral chroma upscaling. I tried it with some real world movies and TV shows and it does a great job. using the luma information as a guidance seems to me is the best way to do it, so yeah.. it's a good chroma scaler in my eyes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
Bilateral scaling can be really really good, but also runs into some exceptions that make it look like trash. Any time you have solid red shapes on solid black, Bilateral has zero luma information to draw on and gets ugly at all the edges (happens on logo/studio sequences before films, rare scenes from certain movies, anime) Furthermore, it sometimes "fills to edges" inappropriately, giving a dramatically different image (chroma bleed) from what ground truth is.

It's just not consistent enough to be left on for all video content. 80-90% of the time it's great, the other 10% it looks so bad I think something's corrupted or broken.
If it were just the problems with a flat luma channel, I might invest the work to detect that situation and switch to a different algo in that case. But the inappropriate "edge filling" which sometimes occurs is a problem that I don't know how to solve. Which is why I haven't tried to improve Bilateral chroma upscaling yet. Maybe Shiandow has some ideas there? I'm not sure if anything can be done there, though. Maybe it's not possible to solve the inappropriate "edge filling" without removing all the benefits Bilateral has in other situations.

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Originally Posted by Shiandow View Post
That looks interesting, bit worried about the 'patent pending' though.
Yep, noticed that, too. Was planning to wait until they have code available (website says "soon") and then to email them to ask about the license/patent situation.

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Originally Posted by Shiandow View Post
The aliasing you're seeing seems to be because they've upscaled the images using point sampling. Presumably to make it easier to see differences (otherwise you'd have to look at a really small image). The other algorithms are simply too blurry to make the aliasing noticeable.
Oh, that could be an explanation. In any case, it's worth a try, if the license situation allows it.

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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Looks a lot more accurate to the source now, I'm seeing less haloing and overall better picture quality.
Glad to hear that!

So how does it compare to warpsharp now?

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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
FWIW, applying thinning after upscaling at a setting of 2.0 seems to look basically identical to doing it @ 1.0 every 2x upscale, you save some rendering time doing is this way also.
Yes, I just wish the other algos had the same properties, but they don't. Which makes it hard for me to streamline all the options into something less complex.

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Madshi, do you think crispen edges goes a little too far? > 2.0 starts to look quite bad. > 3.0 makes me wonder why it's even there.
I haven't really done full comparisons myself yet. crispen edges has a somewhat different look to it which I generally like, but with high settings it does start to fall apart. Maybe I can improve it in the future, I don't know...
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Old 16th November 2015, 11:22   #34274  |  Link
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Glad to hear that!
So how does it compare to warpsharp now?
It's looking like a pretty good alternative, there's some line warping properties from the last version that look closer to the original source so I think it could still use a little tweaking but this was a step in the right direction. I'll send you some screenshots etc.
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Old 16th November 2015, 12:33   #34275  |  Link
hubblec4
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Hi madshi

I have posted in the LAV thread an issue.

With the new madVR0.89.17 play the DVD Aliens(test dvd without the big-vobs) with 4:3 format (menu and video), but it should be 16:9. With EVR it plays fine with 16:9 format.
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Old 16th November 2015, 13:13   #34276  |  Link
leeperry
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The only thing that sometimes bothers me is that SuperRes makes the edges sharper but leaves textures untouched. That can make the image look comic like sometimes. But I hope adding a bit of "enhance detail" in the latest madVR build might help there.
That's especially what I like about it I think as edges are sharper but not the picture itself, that does wonderful things to fast motion but yes you're right as it gives a "comic-like" look indeed but it's sooo smooth and it's not like NNEDI3 didn't look artificial on its own so at some point you have to find an acceptable compromise between sharpness and naturalness I think and as much as the thin look of the latter kinda bothers me SR appears right up my alley

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
You can't run SuperRes without upscaling first. So this would have to be done by using SuperSampling. I'm not sure if doing that would be worth the extra performance hit.
Ouh, wet dreaming of SS SR now and I need an excuse to buy a new GPU anyway ^^

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Do you have the power to make my days have 30 hours instead of 24? If not, then please try to have a bit of patience.
Yeah so sorry I figured afterwards that a checkbox on the end-user side could mean a lot of changes in the back with those four new options and all

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Yep, noticed that, too. Was planning to wait until they have code available (website says "soon") and then to email them to ask about the license/patent situation.
Ouh, this would be most promising in mVR if any possible.
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Old 16th November 2015, 13:15   #34277  |  Link
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the perceptual downscaling image comparisons look interesting!
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Old 16th November 2015, 13:28   #34278  |  Link
Shiandow
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Shiandow, it make me curious if it helps with the overall quality once a good downscaler was adopted into SuperRes.
It's kind of difficult to predict what effect a different downscaler will have, especially a non-linear one. It might also be the wrong way to go about it, I think there's a better way to use their ideas in SuperRes.

Basically, the basis of their algorithm is similar to SuperRes; they generates a resized image which is in some way 'similar' to the input. In their case they generate a smaller image, instead of a bigger image (which means that there's a unique solution). But they also use a different way to measure similarity. It would make more sense to see if SuperRes could use their method to measure similarity, which would actually remove the need to use a downscaling algorithm at all.

Coincidentally, if you use SuperRes's method for measuring similarity to downscale an image you'd get the 'box' downscaling algorithm, which isn't that bad, but Mitchell-Nertavalli is easily better.
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Old 16th November 2015, 18:42   #34279  |  Link
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Will SuperRes for Chroma Upcaling be updated any time soon? Last I heard SuperRes was updated only for Upscaling Refinement, not Chroma Upscaling.
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Old 16th November 2015, 19:48   #34280  |  Link
avinab
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@madashi in the latest build nnedi3 is not working.even if nnedi3 is selected in chroma upscaling or image doubling,it is showing JINC3.
But super-xbr is working.please look into it.
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