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Old 11th January 2009, 15:31   #21  |  Link
Sophocles
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No disrespect, but I could care less what the article says. I know what I hear in my home theater and yes I hear a difference.
No disrespect taken. I realize that there will be some who insist on keeping HD audio tracks, and I am certain that feature jdobbs intends to add it at one point or another.

Audio quality debates have been going on for decades. Remember when people insisted that good old vinyl was better than CD audio? In the early days of CD they were probably right, and that debate is still in progress. The problem with making comparisons is the quality of equipment, the ability to A/B test, and soundtracks that often involves completely different mixes of the same audio content. I posted the article because I've worked with audio most of my life, and I understood the point being made in the article clearly since I've been in the position to perform similar tests. I do however support your choice, because it is a matter of preference. The point of posting the article was to insure early BD RB adopters that a 640kbs soundtrack is pretty darned good if mixed right.
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Old 11th January 2009, 15:50   #22  |  Link
laserfan
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Originally Posted by Sophocles View Post
The point of posting the article was to insure early BD RB adopters that a 640kbs soundtrack is pretty darned good if mixed right.
The predominate message of the article was "Dolby and DTS compression methods are virtually indistinguishable from the original masters" but if lower bitrates being as good as the "HD" versions of DD and DTS was in there too then I'll take your word for it.

Regardless, it seems awfully silly to me that some folks want to make "backups" of BD discs, from 50Gb to DVD-5 or -9, and retain the best audiotrack and at the same time have no deterioration of the video.

If the program has such outstanding audio quality that it's noticeable (and I have one such that certainly IS, despite that my hearing ain't what it used to be), then play the friggin' original disc and archive the audio & video separately if you think you might destroy the original some day (or you can't afford to buy another disc)!

"Backups" indeed! Ha, ha!
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Old 11th January 2009, 16:50   #23  |  Link
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I wasn't implying that AC3 640kbs is as good as HD audio formats because I know that's not true. The point that I was trying to make is that home surround systems can't reproduce any real qualitative difference, and what differences that most people hear might not have anything to do with sound quality. Some years ago I setup an A/B test between a DBX recorded cassette tape and a CD, and to make things interesting I used an equalizer to boost hi and low frequencies, and without fail everyone chose the cassette recording. Their perception of what was better was hearing bright hi's and booming bass.

Here are the points made in the article that makes good sense.

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The shocker came when we compared the lower 448 kbps Dolby Digital DVD bitrate to the original. There was an audible difference, but it was only ever-so-slightly noticeable (and this is with a high end audio system in an acoustically controlled environment that is so far beyond what typical home theater systems are capable of resolving). There was just the slightest decrease in presence with the DD version, not exactly a softening of the sound, but just a tad less ambience and a similarly small tightening of the front soundstage’s depth. Quite a remarkable result, I thought, and I was highly impressed with how much fidelity can be packed into such a relatively small amount of bitspace. If I was doing actual scoring, I would have awarded a 4.8 grade to the results I heard – the audible difference was that subtle.
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that said, I could definitely pick out the difference between the lesser (or perhaps it’s more accurate to say “better”) compressed versions and the higher compressed versions. The difference is mostly in the presence, or ambience. The lossless, Dolby Digital Plus, and DTS-HD High Resolution compressed tracks were just a little more open and airy. I hate to say it, but they just sounded more realistic and transparent. The 448 kbps Dolby Digital and standard DTS tracks were less so, a little more closed off. Between the 640 kbps Dolby Digital and the uncompressed, the difference was even less noticeable. Enough so that most people, even those trained to listen for it, probably won’t be able to hear the difference.
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If you’ve been listening at home and are sure you can hear a difference on your favorite discs, be wary. There is absolutely no way to tell that compressed and uncompressed tracks on any disc have anything to do with each other. They could come from different masters, they could be mixed differently, or any number of other variables that makes an in-home test, unfortunately, impossible.

In time jdobbs will no doubt add HD audio options to BD RB and for those that might have chosen a single layer backup can always to the dual layer option to keep HD audio on many discs. For me it's like you stated.
Regardless,
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it seems awfully silly to me that some folks want to make "backups" of BD discs, from 50Gb to DVD-5 or -9, and retain the best audiotrack and at the same time have no deterioration of the video.
That becomes even more true if any qualitative differences that individuals hear has nothing to do with audible quality.
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Old 11th January 2009, 19:06   #24  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Sophocles View Post
Some years ago I setup an A/B test between a DBX recorded cassette tape and a CD, and to make things interesting I used an equalizer to boost hi and low frequencies, and without fail everyone chose the cassette recording. Their perception of what was better was hearing bright hi's and booming bass.
Yep. When I was a much younger man I learned that you could almost always get a listener to prefer Speaker A over Speaker B just by cranking the level up a touch!
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Old 11th January 2009, 21:27   #25  |  Link
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Yep. When I was a much younger man I learned that you could almost always get a listener to prefer Speaker A over Speaker B just by cranking the level up a touch!
I think that we're showing our years. LOL I was musician from 1969 to 1976 and then became a high end AV salesmen (AV consultant). From the sounds of things you've been there too. I then left and studied Recording Engineering for studio work, and then back to AV for a while. You are absolutely correct about cranking speaker volum just a bit because that's enough to increase audible highs and lows.

Still there are a number of requests for HD audio and I suspect that jdobbs will in time add it, but for me AC3 640kbs 5:1 is as good as I will ever need it.
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Old 12th January 2009, 00:07   #26  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Sophocles View Post
Before anyone decides to add HD audio to their reencodes read this article and then decide how much difference it's actually going to make. Take note that the comparisons are being made on ultra high quality very expensive systems in a well designed sound room.

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby...PCM?page=0%2C0
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So by all means go for the new codecs, as they definitely sound better than what was on DVD.
To me, this is the whole point of the article. I'm not saying there is a HUGE difference, but if you have higher end equipment, it's definitely there.

I liked the fact that the DTS lab was using the same receiver I have in my living room.

With many BDs, the HD audio track has 6.1 or 7.1 channels.
When you extract the core, it downgrades to 5.1. Although XMen 3 came out as DTS-ES 6.1 when I extracted the DTS core.

Then again, maybe some of use just like it when DTS-HD Master or True-HD lights up on our receivers.
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Old 12th January 2009, 03:30   #27  |  Link
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I'll add HD options -- but right now I'm more concerned about bugs...
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Old 12th January 2009, 12:14   #28  |  Link
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The differences betwenn the audio formats are details. Example: Enchanted (German).

I've watched this movie in DD and DTS.

DD: In some parts with effects and/or music it was very difficult, up to impossible, to understand, what the people are talking or singing.

DTS: In the same parts, the voices and effects are hearable more discrete. It was much easier to understand what they are talkling and it was possible to understand that words, I didn't understood with AC3 track.

I've only a low end equipment (Onkyo TX-SR 606 AV Receiver with actually only 2x"Heco Victa 700" speakers), but I can hear that difference between these two formats and I think, the differences between DTS and HD Formats is a similar difference, but I coundn't test this theory because nearly no Blu-Ray Disk has got German HD Sound.

Last edited by KarstenS; 12th January 2009 at 12:32.
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Old 12th January 2009, 15:15   #29  |  Link
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The differences betwenn the audio formats are details. Example: Enchanted (German).

I've watched this movie in DD and DTS.

DD: In some parts with effects and/or music it was very difficult, up to impossible, to understand, what the people are talking or singing.

When there are two different surround tracks on a single disc the differences are often more in the mix down than in the actually quality. There's no question that DTS is superior to 448kbs DD but there should be no audible differences between 640kbs DD and DTS unless they are mixed differently.

To be the "Devil's advocate" that would also mean that if 640kbs is the superior mix then it is going to sound better than DTS. In the end however I think that one should be able to reencode to their preference for the final outcome.
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Old 12th January 2009, 16:01   #30  |  Link
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I think the differences you guys are hearing are likely because the DD tracks all come with dialog normalization and the DTS tracks don't. You could try to remove the normalization (e.g. with eac3to) and compare the tracks afterwards. Maybe there will be no audible difference then.
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Old 12th January 2009, 18:53   #31  |  Link
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With the last EBU multichannel ABX test, shows that the DTS 1.5mbps, AC3 448kbps, 160kbps HE-AAC, E-AC3 320kbps have tied scores, which automatically means that the AC3 640kbps is certainly higher quality than DTS 1.5mbps, from same source.
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Old 12th January 2009, 19:44   #32  |  Link
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HD DVD output option
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Old 12th January 2009, 19:56   #33  |  Link
shon3i
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HD DVD output option
Haha, your newer get that , but HDDVD as input will be more interesting.
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Old 12th January 2009, 20:10   #34  |  Link
yonexsp
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when BD Rebuilder runs it creates a x.264 file & the AC3 file. What is needed to make these files compatible with HD DVD? I have tried hddvdmux but it crashes at 10.5%
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Old 12th January 2009, 21:12   #35  |  Link
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HD DVD output option
I'll be honest guys... I really don't see much chance of my spending hours and hours to provide support for a standard that is dead. I wouldn't hold my breath for HD DVD support.

Sorry.
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Old 14th January 2009, 19:47   #36  |  Link
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Mr. Dobbs,

HD DVD or Blu Ray INPUT

OUTPUT: sd dvd aka 720x480, one dd5.1 audio and one subtitle jammed packed to the hilt with bits...just like the SUPERBIT.

The funding's on its way if it is affirmative .

I scavanged about 100 cheap hd dvd titles recently. Don't plan to buy more than ONE blu player but already have 3 sd players in the house.
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Old 14th January 2009, 20:58   #37  |  Link
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I'll be honest guys... I really don't see much chance of my spending hours and hours to provide support for a standard that is dead. I wouldn't hold my breath for HD DVD support.

Sorry.
Not even movie only PLeeeasee lol!!
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Old 16th January 2009, 16:48   #38  |  Link
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Just wonder if you can get the program to run without having to change the language of non-unicode programs in the control panel.
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Old 16th January 2009, 18:26   #39  |  Link
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Good point. I waited too long before looking at that in DVD-RB and decided it wasn't worth the work...
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Old 18th January 2009, 18:29   #40  |  Link
DaMacFunkin
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Definatley needs a Power Off Function.
Keep HD Audio streams too, virtually all my new disks have HD audio of one flavour or another and obviousley having a 7.1 system i am loave to spend 24 hours+ re-encoding any titles with more than 5.1 channels.
Thanks.
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