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Old 29th July 2007, 23:34   #481  |  Link
honai
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Wow, that's amazing! Thank you so much!
 
Old 30th July 2007, 05:39   #482  |  Link
Rectal Prolapse
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Nice work madshi and the rest of you!
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Old 30th July 2007, 08:03   #483  |  Link
ACrowley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Good news!!

http://madshi.net/eac3to.zip

The latest eac3to version 1.10 now detects if E-AC3 tracks have Dialog Normalization activated (most tracks have) and removes it automatically! As a result by using eac3to Dialog Normalization with E-AC3 decoding is no longer a problem. (Thanks to tebasuna51 for the helpful tips!)

Furthermore I've found a way to talk the Nero E-AC3 decoder into not applying DRC, even though we're using it outside of ShowTime. That means: With the help of the Nero decoder we now have near perfect E-AC3 decoding. Enjoy!!

Finally, the Surcode automation was slightly improved. It now outputs some more messages. If it still fails for some people, please post the full eac3to output here. Thanks.

Because of the latest information about DRC and Dialog Normalization and the latest improvements in eac3to for the Nero decoder, I've now made Nero the default E-AC3 and TrueHD decoder. So the flag "/nero" is no more. There is a flag "/sonic" now to force the use of the Sonic filters. I do not recommend the Sonic filters, though, cause they still apply DRC and I don't know how to disable that.

@ACrowley, I hope you'll find some time to test the new version to make sure that E-AC3 decoding is really without faults now. Thanks!
Test Sample EAC3 640kbps 5.1 (300HDDVD)


you can see ec3to 1.10 works now without DRC AND without DialogNorm (for EAC3). TrueHD is still with DialogNorm.
Madshi....nice work!

SO the new Conclusion is :

TrueHD ,always, with NeroDecoder : DRC OFF ,Dialog ON
EAC3 "only" via "eac3to" with NeroDecoder : DRC OFF DialogN OFF

Later Today when im have Time i will show you that the Dynamics are as like as the AC3 640kbps from BluRay ! Nice

Last edited by ACrowley; 30th July 2007 at 08:08.
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Old 30th July 2007, 08:25   #484  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by ACrowley View Post
Test Sample EAC3 640kbps 5.1 (300HDDVD)


you can see ec3to 1.10 works now without DRC AND without DialogNorm (for EAC3).
Thanks for confirming!
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Old 30th July 2007, 08:51   #485  |  Link
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Heres a Comparison from AC3 640kbps Bluray and decoded EAC3 640kbps HDDVD (Nero eac3to 1.10) from 300



Its obvious.
Thew 1.10 Version works perfect . No DRC ,No DialogNorm. anymore with NeroAudioDecoder

Last edited by ACrowley; 30th July 2007 at 08:58.
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Old 30th July 2007, 09:15   #486  |  Link
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Excellent!

I have observed an interesting effect.

I just encoded the English DD+ track from Batman Begins to DTS (w/ Surcode) and muxed the track alongside the DD track from the R1 DVD. With the DTS track dialog is considerably "louder" than the DD version. I route audio to my receiver over SPDIF (bit-perfect), and the receiver displays "DIAL. NORM +4" for the DTS track (Pioneer 1014). So it seems that DD+ -> DTS yields dialog loudness that is stronger than the "reference" from the DVD. Not that it sounds unpleasant. I'm just wondering if we aren't running into unintended consequences by ignoring the Dialog Normalization in the source DD+ track ...
 
Old 30th July 2007, 09:40   #487  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honai View Post
I just encoded the English DD+ track from Batman Begins to DTS (w/ Surcode) and muxed the track alongside the DD track from the R1 DVD. With the DTS track dialog is considerably "louder" than the DD version. I route audio to my receiver over SPDIF (bit-perfect), and the receiver displays "DIAL. NORM +4" for the DTS track (Pioneer 1014). So it seems that DD+ -> DTS yields dialog loudness that is stronger than the "reference" from the DVD. Not that it sounds unpleasant. I'm just wondering if we aren't running into unintended consequences by ignoring the Dialog Normalization in the source DD+ track ...
As far as I understand it, the DD+ dialnorm stuff changes the volume of the whole track (all 6 channels). It doesn't just change the center channel. So I don't think that ignoring the DD+ dialnorm should have any specific effect on the center channel. But that's just AFAIK. Are you sure that it's not the whole track which is louder? That could be easily explained, because the original DD track will have dialnorm in it, but DTS has not. The the original DD track volume will be lowered by your receiver, while the DTS track should not be lowered. Maybe the receiver even raises volume for DTS tracks. That would result in even more loudness. But all this should affect all channels and not just the dialog (center).
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Old 30th July 2007, 09:59   #488  |  Link
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You're right, picked a few more listening spots, all channels are louder. The receiver doesn't do anything other than adhere to the standard. Maybe Surcode embeds some additional data?

In comparison I can say that the transcoded DTS is indeed louder than reference DTS tracks from retail DVDs.

EDIT:

On my receiver DTS tracks are typically less loud than DD tracks from the same DVD. I suspect that's because due to the algorithmic nature of DTS vs DD the DTS version allows for a greater dynamic range and thus needs more headroom, resulting in an overall lower volume. However, with Batman Begins the transcoded DTS is much louder than the original DD track.

Quote:
Maybe the receiver even raises volume for DTS tracks.
Yes, that's what seems to be happening as indicated by the "+4" in "DIAL. NORM +4". For DD tracks the receiver doesn't indicate any volume adjustment.

Last edited by honai; 30th July 2007 at 10:14.
 
Old 30th July 2007, 10:08   #489  |  Link
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So, should I add a switch to allow dialnorm to happen instead of always defeating it? Probably it makes sense to defeat dialnorm if you reencode in AC3, because then you can tell the AC3 encoder to reuse the original dialnorm value (eac3to 1.10 output the original dialnorm value for your information). But maybe when reencoding to DTS it would be better to let dialnorm happen during decoding? However, I think when decoding 16bit TrueHD tracks it would be better to defeat dialnorm to make lossless reencoding easier without quality loss and with small file sizes.
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Old 30th July 2007, 10:11   #490  |  Link
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Yes, make it an option, that'd be perfect!

EDIT:

Hm, come to think of it - maybe there is indeed something in the DTS header (from the Surcode encoder) that tells the DTS encoder in the receiver if Dialog Normalization should be applied. Perhaps we should ask someone who's familiar with the DTS standard. Using Google I found conflicting information, i.e. that DTS has/has no facilities for Dial. Norm. information in the stream.

EDIT2:

http://www.laaudiofile.com/images/dtsencoder.jpg

Seems to follow the DD standard of 27..31dB Dialog Normalization. Surcode doesn't expose that parameter, but the resulting DTS stream should definitely receive the Dial. Norm. value obtained from the original EAC3 stream.

Last edited by honai; 30th July 2007 at 10:29.
 
Old 30th July 2007, 12:31   #491  |  Link
ACrowley
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I havent any Problems with reencoded AC3 when the DialogNorm was ignored through Source decoding

Always reencoded with -31db ,no DRC Profile

Should be no Problem
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Old 30th July 2007, 12:37   #492  |  Link
madshi
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Here's a thread about DialNorm which I find worth reading:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...d.php?t=230926
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Old 30th July 2007, 15:23   #493  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honai View Post
Yes, make it an option, that'd be perfect!

EDIT:

Hm, come to think of it - maybe there is indeed something in the DTS header (from the Surcode encoder) that tells the DTS encoder in the receiver if Dialog Normalization should be applied. Perhaps we should ask someone who's familiar with the DTS standard. Using Google I found conflicting information, i.e. that DTS has/has no facilities for Dial. Norm. information in the stream.

EDIT2:

http://www.laaudiofile.com/images/dtsencoder.jpg

Seems to follow the DD standard of 27..31dB Dialog Normalization. Surcode doesn't expose that parameter, but the resulting DTS stream should definitely receive the Dial. Norm. value obtained from the original EAC3 stream.
Of course DTS format have also a DialNorm field in the header (also have DRC support) but the solution isn't suply the original attenuated to the DTS encoder, the original must be at full dynamic and you can set the DialNorm in your DTS encoder if you want.

@madshi
Instead a option to apply or not the patch to override the DialNorm attenuation I think honai need a way to pass the original ac3 DialNorm value to the DTS encoder like parameter.
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Old 30th July 2007, 15:33   #494  |  Link
madshi
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@madshi
Instead a option to apply or not the patch to override the DialNorm attenuation I think honai need a way to pass the original ac3 DialNorm value to the DTS encoder like parameter.
Unfortunately the Surcode DTS encoder doesn't seem to have an option to specify the DialNorm value.

Maybe I should manipulate the final DTS file to fill in the right DialNorm value?
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Old 30th July 2007, 17:07   #495  |  Link
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Unfortunately the Surcode DTS encoder doesn't seem to have an option to specify the DialNorm value.

Maybe I should manipulate the final DTS file to fill in the right DialNorm value?

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Minnetonka Audio Software\Surcode DTS\OPTIONS

Theres Value for DialogNorm and DRC

Looks like default applies DialogN, maybe you should leave its on default...i never had Problems with Surcode encoded dts and DialogNorm and Dynamic Compress etc. Not with full Dynamic Sources and not with pre Dynam. compressed Sources

.mhh

@honai
I think DTS should sound louder as like as DD on most Receivers..not lower Volume.
On my Pioneer dts is always louder

Last edited by ACrowley; 30th July 2007 at 17:11.
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Old 30th July 2007, 17:09   #496  |  Link
hristoff2
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Thanks once again, awesome.


Source: Shooter eac3 5.1 (1536kbps), English

top: eac3to 1.9 / Nero / Center CH
bottom: eac3to 1.10 / Nero / Center CH


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Old 30th July 2007, 17:20   #497  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by ACrowley View Post
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Minnetonka Audio Software\Surcode DTS\OPTIONS

Theres Value for DialogNorm and DRC
I don't have these values there? How are they named exactly? Thanks...

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Originally Posted by ACrowley View Post
Looks like default applies DialogN, maybe you should leave its on default...
I agree with tebasuna51 that I should forward the original E-AC3's DialNorm value to the DTS encoder. That makes more sense to me than letting the encoder use a default DialNorm value.

Why are you saying "applies"? There's nothing about DialNorm that the encoder "applies". The encoder does not do any DialNorm processing. All it does is writing a specific DialNorm number to the header of every encoded frame. DialNorm is "applied" by the decoder, not by the encoder!
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Old 30th July 2007, 17:32   #498  |  Link
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I don't have these values there? How are they named exactly? Thanks...


I agree with tebasuna51 that I should forward the original E-AC3's DialNorm value to the DTS encoder. That makes more sense to me than letting the encoder use a default DialNorm value.

Why are you saying "applies"? There's nothing about DialNorm that the encoder "applies". The encoder does not do any DialNorm processing. All it does is writing a specific DialNorm number to the header of every encoded frame. DialNorm is "applied" by the decoder, not by the encoder!

Thats what i mean.. i told you my English is bad. I should better say the encoder applies the DialogNorm Info into the encode..better ?

Do you know how a DTS encoder handles Dialog Norm value ?
I dont if the dts encoder handles the encoding/decoding off DialogN as like as AC3,when -27db is in EAC3/AC3 if -27db is correct for a reencoded dts too? I really dont know the DTS tech Specs

But when you plan to set the DialogNorm from EAC3 into dts,it should be done for a TrueHD Source DialogNorm too ?
Mhhh i never thought about..all my dts reencodes are at default without any special DialogNorm Setting because theres simply no Option in Surcode/Nuendo

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Minnetonka Audio Software\Surcode DTS\OPTIONS

Last edited by ACrowley; 30th July 2007 at 18:06.
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Old 30th July 2007, 17:43   #499  |  Link
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Ok...Do you knw how a "Studio" DTS encoder handles Dialog Norm value ? Surcode is a certified DTS Encoder too..however, but more semi Pro
Maybe the Manual from DTS (HD) Master Suite shows how to do. I dont if the dts encoder handles the encoding/decoding with DialogN s like as AC3,when -27db is in EAC3 if -27db in dts is correct too? I really dont know
I don't know, either, but I would guess so...

P.S: You can test it out. Just set different DialNorm values in the Surcode registry keys. Then test encode in DTS. Then decode again and check the WAV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACrowley View Post
But when you plan to set the DialogNorm from EAC3 ,it should be done for a TrueHD Source DialogNorm too ?
For TrueHD sources I would set DialNorm to -31dB in the DTS encoder because we currently can't turn DialNorm off during decoding.

So, how is the exact names of these registry values?
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Old 30th July 2007, 22:02   #500  |  Link
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@ACrowley: Wow, you have many more values in your registry than I have! Which Surcode version are you using? The Dialnorm value in your registry is "-27". I wonder what effect (if any) the "3db Attenuation" registry value has? Do you have time to test that? Would be interested if it has any effect! Unfortunately I'm currently very short on time, so I can't test that myself right now...
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