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Old 14th November 2019, 13:26   #7201  |  Link
Forteen88
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Originally Posted by Barough View Post
x265 v3.2+15-04db2bfee5d6 (32 & 64-bit 8/10/12bit Multilib Windows Binaries) (GCC 9.2.0)
Is this version newer than x265-3.2.1+1?
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Old 14th November 2019, 13:28   #7202  |  Link
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Yes it is, this is compiled from the default branch and not the stable one.

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Last edited by Barough; 15th November 2019 at 21:21.
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Old 15th November 2019, 20:51   #7203  |  Link
benwaggoner
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How is that any different from physical film grain on actual film stock? That x264 and x265 completely neglected it because it was hard to test doesn't mean a little noise generation isn't valuable.
The grain generation is often done in wrong ways that make it much harder to encode than real world grain. I especially see this in 4K and HDR, where grain gets rendered at the pixel level with SDR code values and so comes out way too bright and too fine-grained. I've seen synthetic film grain that made content impossible to encode at even vaguely acceptable quality at 40 Mbps.

We're also seeing silly amounts of film grain in restored rescans of movies. It isn't creative intent to preserve all kinds of noise that wouldn't have been visible on the perf screens and foot lamberts that the creatives actually approved the content on.
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Old 15th November 2019, 20:55   #7204  |  Link
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I hear you on the remastering, Ben.

Home Alone is an astounding example of this.
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Old 15th November 2019, 20:57   #7205  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nghiabeo20 View Post
I encode my clip in 5 parts, using -ss and -t to seek to cut position. Now mkvmerge refuses to merge the file, warning that "codec private data doesn't match". After checking the encoding settings, I found that only the --numa-pool change in the first 2 file. How can I edit SPS/PPS data to fool mkvmerge into merging my files? Thanks!
Also maybe try --hrd-concat if you are using HRD?
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Old 15th November 2019, 22:56   #7206  |  Link
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Watch the 4k77 UHD release of Star Wars if you want to see overdone grain. MCTD is calling its name when I build my new Zen 2 system in the next month or two.

Last edited by Stereodude; 15th November 2019 at 22:59.
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Old 17th November 2019, 15:59   #7207  |  Link
markiemarcus
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Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit View Post
I hear you on the remastering, Ben.

Home Alone is an astounding example of this.
Something definitely looked off with Home Alone. The pitch of the grain was both far too fine and too bright; it didn't gel at all with the image.

I must say though, I like the way the UHD release of Predator looks and it's pretty damn grainy. It looks right to me. Was shaky film stock from the outset IIRC.
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Old 18th November 2019, 04:07   #7208  |  Link
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The original Predator, in my view, is the PERFECT example of what a transfer and remaster should look like. I'm old enough to have seen it in the cinema, and watching that 4k copy was everything I remembered. And we all know how we view the past with rose coloured glasses.
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Old 18th November 2019, 08:28   #7209  |  Link
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Film grain ... I witnessed an attempt to preserve a sensible amount of it while trying to remove the majority that only distracts the MPEG-2 encoder of a "Kinowelt" DVD production. Source: Die Feuerzangenbowle (1944) – too much denoising, and the trees on the schoolyard look like forged of concrete.
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Old 19th November 2019, 14:45   #7210  |  Link
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The original Predator, in my view, is the PERFECT example of what a transfer and remaster should look like. I'm old enough to have seen it in the cinema, and watching that 4k copy was everything I remembered. And we all know how we view the past with rose coloured glasses.
Was quite a treat to watch it again I must say. I wonder what the difference in process was, because it obviously wasn't an easy source to work with.

It's a nice encode too. I've noticed that a number of grainy UHD Blu-rays have issues from time-to-time in that regard. There are a handful of scenes in both Blade Runner and The Fog that completely fall apart. Seems inexcusable given how much space there is to play with. In the case of The Fog, the bit rate actually plummets in the affected scenes.
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Old 19th November 2019, 17:24   #7211  |  Link
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Originally Posted by markiemarcus View Post
Was quite a treat to watch it again I must say. I wonder what the difference in process was, because it obviously wasn't an easy source to work with.

It's a nice encode too. I've noticed that a number of grainy UHD Blu-rays have issues from time-to-time in that regard. There are a handful of scenes in both Blade Runner and The Fog that completely fall apart. Seems inexcusable given how much space there is to play with. In the case of The Fog, the bit rate actually plummets in the affected scenes.
Grain is essentially uncompressible random noise. It's random spatially and temporally, includes chroma, and is typically very high frequency. So it can use the vast majority of bits encoding a frame, is sensitive to QP differences between I, P, B, and b frames, and is otherwise a worst-case nightmare.

While encoding 4K content might take only 2x the bitrate as 1080p, doing grain is much more linear. 80 Mbps 4K is only twice that of Blu-ray 1080p. There are cases of grain that is quite literally impossible to encode without perceptible artifacts. Heck, just encoding a flat gray slide with JUST grain on it can be very challenging.

And that grain, even in lossless, can be quite distracting to a viewer. There's certainly way more fine detail grain on the Blade Runner Blu-ray than Ridley Scott ever saw when he was working on it, due to perf screens, dimmer projectors, etcetera. And in HDR, it's also way brighter grain than would have been seen before. One risk with SMPTE 2100 HDR is that any filters that assume gamma instead of linear light will do weird high contrast things in high luma, since the code values have much bigger jumps in luma than 709 gamma had. Conversely, low luma might not get enough filtering if processed assuming 709.
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Old 20th November 2019, 11:50   #7212  |  Link
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i have a strange problem backuping my Hobbs and Shaw UHD... It has HDR10+ and when i extract HDR10+ metadata (tried all version of hdr10plus_parser, extracting from raw HEVC stream) and use it for encode mediainfo is like this...

source:

Code:
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L5.1@High
HDR format                               : SMPTE ST 2094 App 4, Version 1, HDR10+ Profile B compatible
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0 (Type 2)
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics                 : PQ
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries        : Display P3
Mastering display luminance              : min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level              : 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level        : 419 cd/m2
encoded mediainfo (no info about HDR10, HDR10+) weird, json metadata file us about 139MB:

Code:
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L5.1@High
HDR format                               : SMPTE ST 2094 App 4, Version 1
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0 (Type 2)
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics                 : PQ
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries        : Display P3
Mastering display luminance              : min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level              : 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level        : 419 cd/m2
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Old 20th November 2019, 20:34   #7213  |  Link
mini-moose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpsvk View Post
i have a strange problem backuping my Hobbs and Shaw UHD... It has HDR10+ and when i extract HDR10+ metadata (tried all version of hdr10plus_parser, extracting from raw HEVC stream) and use it for encode
You should read and post on the hdr10+ thread:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=175947&page=5

I think this happens when the hdr10+ json isn't quite right.

Last edited by mini-moose; 20th November 2019 at 20:42.
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Old 20th November 2019, 20:36   #7214  |  Link
markiemarcus
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Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
Grain is essentially uncompressible random noise. It's random spatially and temporally, includes chroma, and is typically very high frequency. So it can use the vast majority of bits encoding a frame, is sensitive to QP differences between I, P, B, and b frames, and is otherwise a worst-case nightmare.

While encoding 4K content might take only 2x the bitrate as 1080p, doing grain is much more linear. 80 Mbps 4K is only twice that of Blu-ray 1080p. There are cases of grain that is quite literally impossible to encode without perceptible artifacts. Heck, just encoding a flat gray slide with JUST grain on it can be very challenging.
I hadn't really considered the HDR component, that makes sense! Grain compressibility is definitely something I've run into when playing around with x265 on very grainy animation. Assuming semi-transparency as a goal, you're lucky to see a 30-40% reduction at 1080p over x264. That's still pretty good (on the otherwise flat cells the difficulties with grain retention are more obvious). I find live action easier in that regard. You can definitely get there, it just requires some care. I've started leaning towards slightly elevated Psy-rd values (in the range of 2.5 to 3.0), but greatly reduced Psy-RDOQ values (typically below 0.5). I discovered that by accident, but reading through the documentation, it seems that RDOQ by design is less accurate.

With very grainy animated sources, it's quite apparent that RDOQ exaggerates grain coarseness even at the default value of 1.0. It serves a purpose for sure (it's great at maintaining/approximating the motion), I'm just careful with it; it can make a right mess of flat scenes if the grain is intermittent. I've had really good results with CTU 64 and QG 64 in most animated content, grainy or otherwise. I can absolutely see why CTU 64 is the default; I don't find it to cause any difficulties whatsoever with grain retention. Quite the opposite.

The curious thing with The Fog is that the bit rate falls drastically in the troublesome scenes. Seems like an authoring error.
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Old Yesterday, 02:52   #7215  |  Link
redbtn
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Originally Posted by markiemarcus View Post
I've started leaning towards slightly elevated Psy-rd values (in the range of 2.5 to 3.0), but greatly reduced Psy-RDOQ values (typically below 0.5).
What about turning psy-rdoq off? It gives worse results than 0.5? And what values you use for grainy movies? I use psy-rd 2.0 psy-rdoq 1.2 for movies, but I'm still not sure about that, still looking for optimal values.

Last edited by redbtn; Yesterday at 02:55.
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