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Old 1st December 2016, 10:19   #41061  |  Link
burfadel
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Originally Posted by Backflash View Post
Well yeah, but it's drivers+windows 10 that does this, madvr may trigger it more often but it happens with everything else anyway.
I started a new thread here for specific issues like this:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1788137

I do call it an issue because it does not affect the R9-280X with all other things equal. It seems to only affect newer cards from Nvidia and AMD. If it is driver related then tracking down the cause will allow it to be reported via driver reporting .
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Old 1st December 2016, 10:34   #41062  |  Link
ashlar42
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Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Exactly.

Here you can see a comparison between Jinc, Lanczos3, Bicubic150 and SSim1D100 for downscaling after 2x supersampling with NGU:



And zoomed:



Make your choice. For me it is Lanczos3 because Bicubic150 has too much aliasing and Jinc is a little bit too soft.
I don't find Bicubic150 to be aliased at 100% zoom, I just find it pleasantly sharper.
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Old 1st December 2016, 11:48   #41063  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Looking at Neo-XP's zoomed in comparison, there are some spots where SSIM seems to preserve the structure of the upscale better, like a spot on the edge of the woman's face between her eyebrow and eye (on the right side). Other than that it actually seems slightly softer than Bicubic150, but I think the sharpness overall is somewhat more consistent. So I do think this proves that SSIM can make a visible difference, even if the number of pixel differences for a given image are small. Whether the trade off between letting people use all the power of their GPUs and keeping them from wasting power on inconsequential things is worth it is another question.
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Old 1st December 2016, 12:17   #41064  |  Link
Backflash
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Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
Looking at Neo-XP's zoomed in comparison, there are some spots where SSIM seems to preserve the structure of the upscale better, like a spot on the edge of the woman's face between her eyebrow and eye (on the right side). Other than that it actually seems slightly softer than Bicubic150, but I think the sharpness overall is somewhat more consistent. So I do think this proves that SSIM can make a visible difference, even if the number of pixel differences for a given image are small. Whether the trade off between letting people use all the power of their GPUs and keeping them from wasting power on inconsequential things is worth it is another question.
There is a weird dot on the left eye(if looking at picture) center with SSIM though. just a glitch?
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Old 1st December 2016, 12:17   #41065  |  Link
Neo-XP
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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
I don't find Bicubic150 to be aliased at 100% zoom, I just find it pleasantly sharper.
I could live with Bicubic150 for downscaling, it just accentuate the sharpening of Lanczos3 (but the dark halos are increased too). Lanczos3 is just sharp enough for me.

I will test all the algorithms with a bad source material. It should be easier too see all the qualities and defaults of each one.
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Old 1st December 2016, 13:01   #41066  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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There is a weird dot on the left eye(if looking at picture) center with SSIM though. just a glitch?
Do you mean around the bottom right corner of the highlight (the window reflection) in her pupil? Yeah that looks a little weird, might be there in the upscale too though.
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Old 1st December 2016, 15:33   #41067  |  Link
clsid
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Originally Posted by Dodgexander View Post
If the PC does go to standby and return the video is always green and I have to restart the player for it to work again.

With mpc-hc using the EVR it doesn't happen.
I think this is probably something that madshi can fix.

EVR-CP has similar issues after sleep/hibernate, which can be solved by turning on this option:
options > playback > output > reinitialize when changing display

Relevant code:
https://github.com/mpc-hc/mpc-hc/blo...rPresenter.cpp (starts at line 1627)
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Old 1st December 2016, 16:19   #41068  |  Link
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Hi madshi, since you are now also working on simplifying the settings GUI, I have some ideas regarding the presets/profiles.

1) Get rid of the profile groups. It is just unnecessarily complex. Just let presets cover the whole group in each section.
2) On the main level in the GUI (e.g. scaling algorithms page) show a list of all presets in that section. Have buttons to remove and duplicate a preset.
3) Always have at least one preset. For example called "default". This one can't be removed. It is used as a fallback.
4) Display all settings pages just once. Have a dropdown box somewhere at the top to select the "current" preset. Simpler GUI and one can quickly compare settings of different presets. Have an entry called "new" at the bottom of the list. When selected, this takes the user to the preset creation page of that section.
5) Don't use a profile selection script, but instead give each preset a boolean statement that determines if it should get loaded. This has two benefits. First of all, presets become fully independent, making them easy to share/exchange. So we can start making "Doom9 community approved (TM)" optimized presets in the near future. Secondly, it is much easier to have a large number of presets. Non-programmers are often already struggling with relatively simple profile selection scripts. Given the increasing popularity of 4k and 60fps video, plus the availability of HDR and 3D functionality in madvr, the amount of presents can be significant in case of the true enthusiasts.
6) Add buttons to import/export a preset. Preferably in a (human readable) text-based format (xml/ini) for easy sharing.
7) Add a right-click menu to the boolean statement field of the preset. This is used to quickly insert commonly used variables (srcWidth, deintFps, etc) and could even have submenus for stuff like "(deintFps > 31)".
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Old 1st December 2016, 16:22   #41069  |  Link
Uoppi
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Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
Otherwise, if you can run it, I find NGU high (the new high, old medium) is a breakpoint where the image becomes noticeably better.
Do you mean for luma? Or also for chroma? I tend not want to "waste" resources on chroma by going all-out without visible benefit.

I like NGU a lot but not so much for SD -> 1080p. The picture is too "frizzy" or oversharp. I'll need to play with soften edges, I guess.
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Old 1st December 2016, 16:34   #41070  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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5) Don't use a profile selection script, but instead give each preset a boolean statement that determines if it should get loaded. This has two benefits. First of all, presets become fully independent, making them easy to share/exchange. So we can start making "Doom9 community approved (TM)" optimized presets in the near future. Secondly, it is much easier to have a large number of presets. Non-programmers are often already struggling with relatively simple profile selection scripts. Given the increasing popularity of 4k and 60fps video, plus the availability of HDR and 3D functionality in madvr, the amount of presents can be significant in case of the true enthusiasts.
I'm not opposed to this, but it does mean the order in which the profiles are listed becomes significant - the first profile to match a rule would be loaded. Right now the profile selection script determines this ordering; that would need to be replaced with something less generic (like a configurable box listing the profiles in the order they will be tried).
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Old 1st December 2016, 16:47   #41071  |  Link
clsid
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Yes, of course, the order of the list of presets should preferably be customizable. That is easy to implement (with up/down button for moving a selected preset).

But ideally the loading rule of a preset is specific enough to avoid multiple matches. At least when we start creating presets for others.

The idea is to eventually have a few presets for each common type of situation (e.g. 720p23 -> 1080p23) with increasing quality/complexity. Plus a fixed set of sample files for testing. Plus a dedicated topic for testing results. So everyone can compare rendertimes and pick the most suitable preset for their hardware. Ultimately a little tool that automatically sets proper presets. Unless madshi beats us with some kind of automated performance based magic.

Last edited by clsid; 1st December 2016 at 16:58.
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Old 1st December 2016, 16:57   #41072  |  Link
nevcairiel
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As a programmer, I like the profile selection scripts. I have one single view where I can see which rules determine which profiles are used. Having to check every single profile and only seeing one line at a time would be quite a step back, imho.
As a compromise it could offer an "advanced" and "simple" mode, where in simple mode it just constructs the script from the individual lines, and in advanced mode, let me write it.
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Old 1st December 2016, 17:09   #41073  |  Link
clsid
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Yes, that would be a reasonable compromise.

Perhaps additionally (at a later stage) a preset "test" function could be added? A test button that open a dialog where you can specify the various parameters such as srcwidth/srcheight (textbox), fps (dropdown), filename, HDR (checkbox), etc. That then shows which preset(s) matches the chosen values.
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Old 1st December 2016, 17:10   #41074  |  Link
JarrettH
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How do you even tell what is what at 800% zoom?
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Old 1st December 2016, 18:01   #41075  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
I don't find Bicubic150 to be aliased at 100% zoom, I just find it pleasantly sharper.
Same here. I like Bicubic150 and SSIM.

That's for downscaling. Although, the difference is so small I don't really care.

Last edited by Warner306; 1st December 2016 at 18:04.
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Old 1st December 2016, 19:42   #41076  |  Link
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Same here. I like Bicubic150 and SSIM.

That's for downscaling. Although, the difference is so small I don't really care.
Here is another test with an upscaling to UHD :

Mitchell-Netravali / Catmull-Rom / Bicubic150 / Lanczos3 / Jinc



Zoom 100% on FHD screen and lossless quality :



And the source (saved by MPC) :



Once again, Lanczos3 wins for me.
You can easily see there that Bicubic150 produce a lot of aliasing and other ugly artifacts.
That is why I use Lanczos3 after luma doubling with NGU and why it should be available in madVR's new versions, for upscaling and downscaling.

Last edited by Neo-XP; 1st December 2016 at 21:04.
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Old 1st December 2016, 20:04   #41077  |  Link
pose
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That is why I use Lanczos3 after luma doubling with NGU and why it should be available in madVR's new versions, for upscaling and downscaling.
Literally no logic there.
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Old 1st December 2016, 20:19   #41078  |  Link
Neo-XP
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Literally no logic there.
Maybe I wasn't explicit enough. I used a bad source material to highlight the defaults of each algorithm. When used for luma doubling, NGU will produce some artifacts that will be increased by the algorithm that you put after it, for upscaling and downscaling. Jinc is also very good if you want a clean result, but the rendering times make it not relevant for me.

Last edited by Neo-XP; 1st December 2016 at 20:23.
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Old 1st December 2016, 20:50   #41079  |  Link
har3inger
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Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Here is another test with an upscaling to UHD :

Mitchell-Netravali / Catmull-Rom / Bicubic150 / Lanczos3 / Jinc



Zoom 100% on FHD screen and lossless quality :



Once again, Lanczos3 wins for me.
You can easily see there that Bicubic150 produce a lot of aliasing and other ugly artifacts.
That is why I use Lanczos3 after luma doubling with NGU and why it should be available in madVR's new versions, for upscaling and downscaling.
You need to show us the source. Something is definitely weird here, as the aliasing "block" size is much larger than a single pixel, if you compare to native resolution in the OSD. It's like the source is nearest-neighbor doubled/tripled or something.

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Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
Do you mean for luma? Or also for chroma? I tend not want to "waste" resources on chroma by going all-out without visible benefit.

I like NGU a lot but not so much for SD -> 1080p. The picture is too "frizzy" or oversharp. I'll need to play with soften edges, I guess.
Sorry, should have specified. I meant luma. I don't use NGU for chroma, because it's almost invariably filled with compression artifacts which the algorithm thinks is real detail a lot of the time. For very clean sources, it's quite nice, but similar results can be achieved for faster using Recon Soft or bilateral.

NGU is best for source content 720p and up scaled to either 1080p or 1440p. I don't have 4k and cannot comment. For SD and lower, nnedi3 is still king (with SR off if source is dirty enough), and could be improved with Add Grain if madshi decides to allow the combination.

Last edited by har3inger; 1st December 2016 at 20:56.
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Old 1st December 2016, 21:04   #41080  |  Link
kalston
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Originally Posted by Neo-XP View Post
Here is another test with an upscaling to UHD :

Mitchell-Netravali / Catmull-Rom / Bicubic150 / Lanczos3 / Jinc



Zoom 100% on FHD screen and lossless quality :



Once again, Lanczos3 wins for me.
You can easily see there that Bicubic150 produce a lot of aliasing and other ugly artifacts.
That is why I use Lanczos3 after luma doubling with NGU and why it should be available in madVR's new versions, for upscaling and downscaling.
Pretty sure that bicubic150 is bugging out here - there is no way in hell it should look that bad. Dunno if it's your setup or the algo though. Maybe you can share a short sample?
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