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Old 7th June 2010, 08:32   #3041  |  Link
iSeries
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@ 6233638 - I'm not completely simple, I watched the movie too. I think I would have noticed any problems. Next you'll be telling me Santa doesn't exist
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Old 7th June 2010, 08:33   #3042  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing
(31ms for 24fps) for present.
Yes, I would agree with your thoughts here. 3 frames worth of time are 125ms, though.
I was actually thinking it would be vsync interval x3, which was ~31ms for 96Hz or ~25ms for 120Hz. I mistyped when I wrote 24fps, in that post it should have been (31ms for 96Hz).

Is it incorrect to think the Backbuffer queue gets emptied every by 1 every Vsync Interval?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The OSD currently only updates once per second. So such stats wouldn't be useful, unless I updated the OSD much more often (which costs performance). I also doubt that your eyes/brain work fast enough to follow 8 OSD updates for "avg present time (over the past 125ms)" per second. Or am I misunderstanding your request?
You are not misunderstanding, but that is a good point. Your eye would probably noticed a large spike (since present time usual stays quite stable), but making out what it said would indeed be difficult. For it to be useful you would probably need to have the debug build log this information as well. Possibly only being logging it if the value was higher than the Vsync/Frame interval and maybe a total for how many times that happened during playback?

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I don't seem to get this here. Can you try to find out the circumstances under which it occurs most often? Maybe it's specific kinds of video files? Maybe it only occurs with Reclock enabled (I have it disabled in the moment)? Etc...
Yeah, I'll need to look into this further as it seems to be somewhat random. Usually it seems to happen with large MKV files. The first thing that comes to mind is that maybe the madVR source filter which is querying the file information is crashing. On that build of madVR which was insta-crashing a few revisions back (which you fixed), the insta-crash appeared to be caused by long file/directory names with multiple files with long names in said directory with a long name. No clue if that is anyway related to this though. I'll have to get back to you when I have more solid info.

Another Bug
Another problem I've noticed is that I get some very minor tearing near the center of the screen, during extremely high motion scenes when resizing 1920x1080 video to 2560x1440 @72Hz. I'm not sure what is causing it, since it even happens with bilinear resizing and 3DLUT disabled.

Last edited by cyberbeing; 7th June 2010 at 09:00.
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Old 7th June 2010, 08:58   #3043  |  Link
Hypernova
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@namaiki,

I didn't do extensive testing. (Start to get sick of my testing file after watching it so many times this weekend ) But the last three options really don't do anything for me. Changing them to some flushing seem to only make thing worse if "after render steps" is not the loop. OSD make things even worse.

@madshi,

As I mentioned above, before present doesn't do any good for my setup

Info:
(1) ATi 3870 with 512mb ram
(2) Windows Server 2008 R2
(3) Aero on
(4) 2560x1600 + 60Hz (madVR stat say ~59.80).
(5) Single monitor setup.
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Old 7th June 2010, 09:18   #3044  |  Link
namaiki
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Hypernova:

I didn't do extensive testing. (Start to get sick of my testing file after watching it so many times this weekend )
......
My 3 testing files are credits and a promotional video. D:

But the last three options really don't do anything for me.
......
Same for me, unfortunately. At least the number of option combinations for 3 items is quite limited.

OSD make things even worse.
.....
I do all my testing with OSD off as I can't get smooth playback when it is enabled.

Madshi: I have no idea how the presenting frames code works, but could you try make a build with timings slightly tighter?
Like say instead of accepting numbers 22-33 inclusive, it would be accept numbers 23-32 instead.
I can't get 24fps video smooth, but it could be judder, but I don't know.. sometimes there is a bit of a constant jump in the video, but if I seek it will go away.
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Old 7th June 2010, 09:48   #3045  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by namaiki View Post
sometimes there is a bit of a constant jump in the video, but if I seek it will go away.
most likely due to Reclock and that ole' VSYNC fliptime problem. I think only hardware VSYNC control w/ FS exclusive mode can fix that...and possibly Aero too.
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Old 7th June 2010, 09:59   #3046  |  Link
noee
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Quote:
Can everybody please test whether the flush option "Before present" does any good? If not, maybe I can at least remove that one.
I see no impact one way or another with this settings options.

Code:
HD2600XT, CCC10.3, Win7 x64, Aero OFF, dual-mon (primary 60Hz, sec 24Hz, both 1920x1080)
HMS/FFDshow/Reclock/madVr/MPC-HC
3Dlut OFF|Spline64|Spline64|Spline36
flush|flush and wait(sleep)|don't|don't|don't
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Old 7th June 2010, 10:11   #3047  |  Link
namaiki
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I see no improvement when using flush before present, but I do get lag when using flush + wait.

By the way Madshi, did you change what was flushing in v0.12 to v0.13?

Last edited by namaiki; 7th June 2010 at 10:16.
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Old 7th June 2010, 12:05   #3048  |  Link
leeperry
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Smoothness is very subjective, and the humain brain is a poor measuring tool ...yet, I can't seem to be able to detect a diff between having all flush disabled or set to "flush and loop"(the latter slightly increases the CPU load, though). I think they're all equally smooth, I'm only forced to enable the "texture upload" thingie otherwise going FS>windowed is extremely laggy(this time it's not placebo!).

I'm also going to disable "write combining" again(in the XP troubleshoot config) coz I find it to make other apps(windows explorer/IE) laggy when they open for the first time. Basically, if I got it right disabling this option makes sure that XP doesn't flood the video buffer w/ asychronous data. It'd appear to be old useless legacy stuff from the W98 days(it was called "USWC" in old mobo BIOS I think)

3dmark's give the same results whether it's enabled or not. I'm just specifying it because it might be the reason for some of my test results(unchecking "texture upload" and going FS>windowed is still laggy even if it's enabled )

Last edited by leeperry; 7th June 2010 at 12:36.
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Old 7th June 2010, 12:08   #3049  |  Link
namaiki
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leeperry, try play a video with higher fps and there should be a difference.
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Old 7th June 2010, 12:11   #3050  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namaiki View Post
try play a video with higher fps and there should be a difference.
ok, but I only play 23.976/24/25/29.97 videos...I use some heavy Avisynth scripting on all my videos so I really have no use for >29.97fps videos

I'll try for troubleshooting sake's, though!
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Old 7th June 2010, 12:15   #3051  |  Link
namaiki
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It's probably because I got a weak GPU. If I play video at 1280x720 screen resolution, there generally isn't much change for flushes.


But yeah, most of my stuff is 23.976 or 29.97.

Last edited by namaiki; 7th June 2010 at 12:21.
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Old 7th June 2010, 12:28   #3052  |  Link
madshi
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@leeperry, I'm still waiting for a log from you about that synchronized frame judder stuff. Can you reproduce it (sometimes smooth playback, sometimes non-smooth playback after seeking) with the debug build? If so, can you please create a log for me, by doing this:

(1) start playback (it must be smooth) and wait 5 seconds
(2) seek until you get non-smooth playback
(3) let playback run non-smooth for 5 seconds
(4) DON'T seek another time and DON'T switch between windowed <-> FS mode
(5) quit the media player

The log only helps if (1) is smooth and after some seeking (2) isn't. (4) is important, so that I know that the end of the log shows the non-smooth situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
I started the clip, double-clicked to full, double-clicked to windowed, paused once the lag was gone and closed MPC-HC

I started the clip, skipped to a random part in the movie, double-clicked to full, double-clicked to windowed, paused once the lag was gone and closed MPC-HC
They seem to be useful. But I can see a "Pause" and "Run" before the going back to windowed mode! Maybe double clicking internally pauses video for a short time? This is probably causing the problem, I'll have to research that. At least I can see some weird things madVR is doing in the log. Try using the key shortcut for switching between windowed <-> FS. That way the problem will probably be gone for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luv View Post
I loose a few frames when I open a mkv.Normal ?
Nothing to worry about, as long as it's only during opening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luv View Post
Now the big problem is the dvds.Very little work :black screen but sound and I can't recover= I have to kill the zp process.
Madshi,I have to say that I have 100 % success with the Haali renderer.
Other pbs same symptoms and full success with the Haali renderer:
-divx in .avi doesn't work,
-avc in .m2ts doesn't work (But mpeg2 and vc1 using the Ms WMP11 decoder in .m2ts works and the quality is plain fantastic !)
What's you splitter for zp,Madshi and wich version of zp are you using,please ?
I'm using various splitter and decoder versions, depending on with which configuration people are reporting problems. It makes more sense if you tell me exactly what setup (splitter, decoder, media player) you're using and if you upload a few short samples. I need to be able to reproduce the problems, otherwise fixing them will be difficult.
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Old 7th June 2010, 13:29   #3053  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
(1) start playback (it must be smooth) and wait 5 seconds
(2) seek until you get non-smooth playback
(3) let playback run non-smooth for 5 seconds
(4) DON'T seek another time and DON'T switch between windowed <-> FS mode
(5) quit the media player

The log only helps if (1) is smooth and after some seeking (2) isn't. (4) is important, so that I know that the end of the log shows the non-smooth situation.
Your wish is my command: http://www.mediafire.com/file/mniqol...%20-%20log.rar
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Old 7th June 2010, 13:58   #3054  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Your wish is my command
Great log! It helped me find one important bug. I hope that the next build will fix this problem once and for all...
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Old 7th June 2010, 14:09   #3055  |  Link
6233638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Smoothness is very subjective, and the humain brain is a poor measuring tool ...yet, I can't seem to be able to detect a diff between having all flush disabled or set to "flush and loop"(the latter slightly increases the CPU load, though). I think they're all equally smooth, I'm only forced to enable the "texture upload" thingie otherwise going FS>windowed is extremely laggy(this time it's not placebo!).
I see +30% CPU from my settings to loop on all. More than a slight increase.

I only see a change in smoothness using loop on all when using resampling my gpu cant handle.

FS>Windowed seems to take either three frames or v-sync intervals for me.
1) Blank
2) Stretched image
3) Aspect ratio fix

Windowed>FS takes two
1) Stretched image
2) Aspect ratio fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Can everybody please test whether the flush option "Before present" does any good? If not, maybe I can at least remove that one.
If stats are right with 'after last step' set to sleep (sounded like they were) then present times are:

dont: 0.16ms
flush: 0.26ms
sleep: 1.33ms
loop: 0.56ms

Sleep reduces rendering time slightly but rendering + present total is higher than dont. Others are the same/worse for render.

Tested the rest after this, numbers are not exact (scene changes, but each 'set' had the same scene) but roughly correct to what I see from giving it some time to settle. 'After last step' always set to sleep:

After render steps:
dont: 21.5/0.16
flush: 20.8/0.17
sleep: 21.8/0.16
loop: 21.3/0.17

After backbuffer:
dont: 21.8/0.16
flush: 20.8/0.17
sleep: 20.9/0.17
loop: 19.5/0.17

After present:
dont: 21.2/0.17
flush: 21.1/0.26
sleep: 19.5/3.1
loop: 19.2/2.2


I will not use loop because of the big CPU increase, even if it means better times on something. So my recommended settings are now:

flush
sleep
flush
dont
dont

'After last step' might perform better set to something other than sleep but the stats break and I don't need more speed.


Update: using a resampler the GPU cant handle, 'after render steps' is better on dont rather than flush or present time goes in the 3+ ms range instead of 0.17ms. Flush is better when the GPU can cope though.

Last edited by 6233638; 7th June 2010 at 14:28.
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Old 7th June 2010, 15:08   #3056  |  Link
leeperry
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Great log! It helped me find one important bug. I hope that the next build will fix this problem once and for all...
Goodness gracious, awesome news! Sometimes seeking gives exactly that...jerky playback, even though Reclock's running...you're forced to reseek. But some other times, playback starts fine and it becomes likes this after 45/60 mins

It was more or less possible to overcome this issue by playing around w/ HR's jitter, but this was a major PITA...plus HR is nowhere near as smooth as mVR.

tbh this problem has more or less disgusted me of watching movies on my DLP pj....I was eagerly hoping for a D3D FS exclusive mode in mVR. If you could make this issue vanish for good(in windowed mode would be the icing on the cake ), I'd be eternally grateful
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Old 7th June 2010, 15:26   #3057  |  Link
pie1394
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Tried madVR 0.17 again under Win7 + Aero ON + 23.976 fps, and the tearing issue is gone. Yet I don't like it because the hidden task bar still shows some white lines on top of video. With EVR-sync D3D Exclusive mode, these are hidden.

Turn off Aero, and the tearing comes back again near bottom side at 23.976 Hz. Sometimes it is probably near the middle at 59.94 Hz if my eyes didn't watch it wrong. EVR-sync mode uses an interesting approach as it was discussed previously, and there is no tearing issue at 23.976 Hz for FILM contents.

So it looks like D3D Exclusive mode is still a better solution to deal with various issues.
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Old 7th June 2010, 15:32   #3058  |  Link
namaiki
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pie1394, you had tearing with Aero disabled. What were your flush settings?
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Old 7th June 2010, 15:40   #3059  |  Link
JarrettH
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Yeah a single click pauses the clip. alt+enter is the shortcut

So even though the lag is due to pausing it makes it look like it's part of the switching transition.

Last edited by JarrettH; 7th June 2010 at 16:06.
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Old 7th June 2010, 16:02   #3060  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Goodness gracious, awesome news! Sometimes seeking gives exactly that...jerky playback, even though Reclock's running...you're forced to reseek. But some other times, playback starts fine and it becomes likes this after 45/60 mins

It was more or less possible to overcome this issue by playing around w/ HR's jitter, but this was a major PITA...plus HR is nowhere near as smooth as mVR.

tbh this problem has more or less disgusted me of watching movies on my DLP pj....I was eagerly hoping for a D3D FS exclusive mode in mVR. If you could make this issue vanish for good(in windowed mode would be the icing on the cake ), I'd be eternally grateful
Well, I think it will be fixed in the next build. At least one bug responsible for the problem. Maybe there are more bugs. If so, just create another log for me with the next build. I'm sure we'll get this fixed soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pie1394 View Post
So it looks like D3D Exclusive mode is still a better solution to deal with various issues.
I've always said that exclusive mode is the best solution. It's just that I want to get windowed mode right first, before I move on to work on exclusive mode.
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