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Old 10th October 2013, 11:53   #20281  |  Link
THX-UltraII
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Morguh Madshi,

I m thinking about getting the AMD 7950. Will this card give me perfect playback with madVR?

If so, am I right that I need to do:

1. set madVR to 0-255
2. set LAV filters to output 'same as input'
3. set nvidia output range to full range (does this need a registry fix or something or will it work with the most recent drivers 'out-of-the-box'?)
4. set nvidia input to 0-255
5. set my display to FULL RANGE

Any other things I need to config like settings in the nvidia control panel? Also, the LAV video filter has got a lot of boxes you can check with the input formats. Which do I select there? Only RGB32 and RGB24 and leave the rest unchecked?
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Old 10th October 2013, 12:17   #20282  |  Link
Zachs
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@madshi

using 86.11 i'm getting green colourspace(?) being shifted by about 32 pixels vertically. Switching back to EVR the video renders correctly.

Example here (I found it via google - no idea what the source is or whether it is a legal file):
http://www56.zippyshare.com/v/68759153/file.html

The same also happens with some of my HDTV records (one particular channel).
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Old 10th October 2013, 13:27   #20283  |  Link
StephaneM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
See? I told you...
And I was listening

Though, I'll restate that it would have been nice to know that this dependency existed

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
There are other benefits to madVR you can get with 1080p video at 1080p native res. You already mentioned smoothmotion and deinterlacing.
Speaking of deinterlacing, I have not extensively tested everything but how is done this deinterlacing? From what I can read here madVR forward the request to deinterlace to the GPU (so DXVA deinterlacing)?

I'm wondering because I still find (for my personal HTPC use) that using a Cyberlink codec + EVR + DXVA2 with DXVA deinterlacing set to auto is what gives the best result : that is you will never ever see a comb effect (Note : this is on AMD GPU for DVB Broadcasted content)

With madVR sometimes I can clearly see comb effect (mainly on things that doesn't move as sharp objects like static text on commercials). Though it is vastly superior as not having madVR handling deinterlacing and leaving it to LAV filters (for instance, I don't see major issues with tickers : they look sharp and not blurry as hell like with some other deinterlacing techniques)

So I'm wondering if it's my fault : I'm the source filter, so I'm the first filter in the graph that is giving a media type, though I do not update this media type while the graph is flowing (I always thought that the video decoder should take this responsibility)
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Old 10th October 2013, 13:30   #20284  |  Link
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drmpeg, did I really need to see that? Just a link to the file or heaven forbid a thumbnail.. My eyes..
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Old 10th October 2013, 13:49   #20285  |  Link
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drmpeg, did I really need to see that? Just a link to the file or heaven forbid a thumbnail.. My eyes..
The blocks or Miley?

Ron
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Old 10th October 2013, 14:00   #20286  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by THX-UltraII View Post
Morguh Madshi,

I m thinking about getting the AMD 7950. Will this card give me perfect playback with madVR?

If so, am I right that I need to do:

1. set madVR to 0-255
2. set LAV filters to output 'same as input'
3. set nvidia output range to full range (does this need a registry fix or something or will it work with the most recent drivers 'out-of-the-box'?)
4. set nvidia input to 0-255
5. set my display to FULL RANGE

Any other things I need to config like settings in the nvidia control panel? Also, the LAV video filter has got a lot of boxes you can check with the input formats. Which do I select there? Only RGB32 and RGB24 and leave the rest unchecked?
leave everything as it is. the worst you can do is to force rgb output in lav.

Quote:
3. set nvidia output range to full range (does this need a registry fix or something or will it work with the most recent drivers 'out-of-the-box'?)
with nvidia you mostlikly need a tweak. very easy tweak.

Quote:
4. set nvidia input to 0-255
just leave everything to "with the video player settings"

Quote:
Do you recommend to get a dedicated GPU? If so, which brand supports FULL RGB out for sure? NVIDIA or AMD?
you got a hd 2000 and it work right ?

a 7950 is a total over kill but do as you please.
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Old 10th October 2013, 14:12   #20287  |  Link
THX-UltraII
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Thanks for your reply huhn.

Ok. So no need in lav to specifically DISable any of the checkboxes?

Can you point me in the right direction for the nvidia tweak?

You told me my Intel card transforms to ycbcr which is bad. So i just picked up a amd for this reason. Also, there has been too many reports about problems with the FULL/LIMITED output of Intel and I just want to be sure all works fine.
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Old 10th October 2013, 14:12   #20288  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Are we talking about LAV Video Decoder? If so, I think it's probably nevcairiel's job to fix this. At least I'd ask him first. If he says it's my problem, then I'll look into it.
I was using LAV Video, yes. But LAV+EVR works fine, it is only the combination of LAV+madVR that does not work correctly. That to me says it's a madVR problem, especially as you have had to fix menu issues with madVR in the past. I know people have provided DVD menu samples here on Doom9 in the past, I just don't know how they do it.

Last edited by romulous; 10th October 2013 at 14:14.
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Old 10th October 2013, 14:32   #20289  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Could use some more samples with light blocking. There are 2 different cases of light blocking:

(1) Only a few artefact blocks spread over the frame, but with hard edges.
(2) Big parts of the image covered in blocks, but the block edges are only barely visible.

Could use samples for both. Thanks!
I tried to capture some scenes with lighter blocking, I hope that's what you're looking for. They're generally on the roof, the walls, the hairs or dark areas. I don't know why but the ratio on screenshots from DVD is not respected but I think it doesn't change anything for you.



















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Old 10th October 2013, 15:04   #20290  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by THX-UltraII View Post
I m thinking about getting the AMD 7950. Will this card give me perfect playback with madVR?
Generally, the 7950 sounds powerful enough to do almost anything madVR currently does, as long as your output solution is limited to 1080p. If you need 4K output, that changes a lot of things, but it also depends on the framerate. But then there are also new algorithms coming to madVR in the near and far future, so what is fast enough today might not be fast enough in the future, if you want to make use of all new algorithms. But I don't know myself.

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Originally Posted by StephaneM View Post
Speaking of deinterlacing, I have not extensively tested everything but how is done this deinterlacing? From what I can read here madVR forward the request to deinterlace to the GPU (so DXVA deinterlacing)?

I'm wondering because I still find (for my personal HTPC use) that using a Cyberlink codec + EVR + DXVA2 with DXVA deinterlacing set to auto is what gives the best result : that is you will never ever see a comb effect (Note : this is on AMD GPU for DVB Broadcasted content)

With madVR sometimes I can clearly see comb effect (mainly on things that doesn't move as sharp objects like static text on commercials).
In theory madVR should produce the same output as EVR, as long as you use the default settings. If you force madVR into film mode, everything changes, though, in that case you'll get IVTC. Which should work very nicely for all film based sources, but you will get really bad results for native video content.

With DVB content and madVR default settings, are those combing artifacts perfectly reproducable? Do they happen the same way at the same frame, every time you try? Or do they change? If you can perfectly reproduce such problems, it would be helpful to get a sample, so that I can look into it.

I'm not sure if the source filter can have an effect on deinterlacing. Normally I would expect the video decoder to decide, in combination with the video renderer. But I only see this from the view point of the video renderer, so I don't know for sure whether the video decoder might behave differently, depending on what the source filter might do. It might make sense to double check this with a different source filter. Or to make it easier, with MPC-HC, just to double check whether it's a problem with madVR or something else...

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Originally Posted by romulous View Post
I was using LAV Video, yes. But LAV+EVR works fine, it is only the combination of LAV+madVR that does not work correctly. That to me says it's a madVR problem, especially as you have had to fix menu issues with madVR in the past. I know people have provided DVD menu samples here on Doom9 in the past, I just don't know how they do it.
It's been quite a while that I looked into anything like this. But from what I remember, LAV does most of the work and madVR only very little. Whether it works with EVR or not has nothing to say. I still think it's more likely that this needs to be fixed in LAV. I might be wrong, but I think nevcairiel has more experience with DVD menu problems, so it would be better to let him look into it first.

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Originally Posted by Zachs View Post
using 86.11 i'm getting green colourspace(?) being shifted by about 32 pixels vertically. Switching back to EVR the video renders correctly.

Example here (I found it via google - no idea what the source is or whether it is a legal file):
http://www56.zippyshare.com/v/68759153/file.html

The same also happens with some of my HDTV records (one particular channel).
Works fine here with both LAV Video Decoder and the internal madVR video decoder. Which decoder are you testing with? Probably a bug with that decoder.

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Originally Posted by Werewolfy View Post
I tried to capture some scenes with lighter blocking, I hope that's what you're looking for. They're generally on the roof, the walls, the hairs or dark areas. I don't know why but the ratio on screenshots from DVD is not respected but I think it doesn't change anything for you.
This is *extremely* light blocking. These might still be useful, to check that nothing goes too much wrong. But in many of those images I have a hard time finding the blocking even when zooming in. Do you maybe have something a bit stronger? So that you can see the blocks without zooming in, but only just?

Thanks!

P.S: The Aspect ratio is good that way, if you would correct it, the blocks wouldn't be 8x8, anymore.
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Old 10th October 2013, 15:24   #20291  |  Link
Werewolfy
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
This is *extremely* light blocking. These might still be useful, to check that nothing goes too much wrong. But in many of those images I have a hard time finding the blocking even when zooming in. Do you maybe have something a bit stronger? So that you can see the blocks without zooming in, but only just?

Thanks!

P.S: The Aspect ratio is good that way, if you would correct it, the blocks wouldn't be 8x8, anymore.
Ok here it's a little easier to spot.

http://imageshack.us/a/img34/2682/qmn.png



http://imageshack.us/a/img268/5052/k8sk.png





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Old 10th October 2013, 15:36   #20292  |  Link
huhn
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Thanks for your reply huhn.

Ok. So no need in lav to specifically DISable any of the checkboxes?
no
Quote:
Originally Posted by THX-UltraII View Post
Can you point me in the right direction for the nvidia tweak?

You told me my Intel card transforms to ycbcr which is bad. So i just picked up a amd for this reason. Also, there has been too many reports about problems with the FULL/LIMITED output of Intel and I just want to be sure all works fine.
yeah intel is a big truble maker i get limited rgb with my pc monitor...

there is a file called madNvLevelsTweaker.exe in the madvr folder just use that.
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Old 10th October 2013, 15:48   #20293  |  Link
THX-UltraII
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I thought that that tool is only for nvidia.

What is THE best PQ algorithm to use for 1080p when sending out 1080p to my projector? (I ll stay with 1080p outputting for now and let my vw1000 do the 4k upscaling)
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Old 10th October 2013, 16:29   #20294  |  Link
StephaneM
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In theory madVR should produce the same output as EVR, as long as you use the default settings.
Well in this case I'm having an issue, but I'm not sure whose fault it is.

Here are my observations:

I use MPC-HC (to rule out issues with my own software), on an AMD graphic cards (fairly old on my dev machine a HD 4600) on Windows 8.
  • DVB MPEG2 SD Interlaced content with LAV Auto for deinterlacing and set to DXVA2 (native) on EVR : Deinterlacing is Ok (though LAV reports avcodec as the decoder used)
  • DVB H264 HD Interlaced content with LAV Auto for deinterlacing and set to DXVA2 (native) on EVR : Deinterlacing is Ok (LAV reporte dxva2n as the decoder used)
  • DVB MPEG2 SD Interlaced now with madVR (automatic deinterlacing selected): Deinterlacing is Ok
  • DVB H264 HD Interlaced now with madVR (automatic deinterlacing selected): Deinterlacing is not Ok (i would say it's done twice : resulting in heavy stuttering)

So there is a little issue here with deinterlacing when using madVR because I cannot choose a settings in madVR or LAV that will work for everything and use DXVA interlacing.

The same thing happens when I use my own software (which doesn't set any interlaced information on the media type, as I don't use a VIDEOINFOHEADER2 at all, I only set the avg frame rate)

Quote:
With DVB content and madVR default settings, are those combing artifacts perfectly reproducable? Do they happen the same way at the same frame, every time you try? Or do they change? If you can perfectly reproduce such problems, it would be helpful to get a sample, so that I can look into it.
Yes it is perfectly reproducable. Though I'm not always sure that DXVA deinterlacing is used. I'll send you a screenshot of the issue I'm seeing if I can verify that this is happening while madVR is using DXVA deinterlacing.

Quote:
I'm not sure if the source filter can have an effect on deinterlacing. Normally I would expect the video decoder to decide, in combination with the video renderer. But I only see this from the view point of the video renderer, so I don't know for sure whether the video decoder might behave differently, depending on what the source filter might do. It might make sense to double check this with a different source filter. Or to make it easier, with MPC-HC, just to double check whether it's a problem with madVR or something else...
It may have an effect because the source filter have to expose the media type for the video decoder. This is somehow difficult for me to provide this information as I'm using the DVB tables to identify the content of the streams and it seems that the interlacing nature of the video is not one of the thing I can found in a video stream descriptor.
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Old 10th October 2013, 16:37   #20295  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by THX-UltraII View Post
I thought that that tool is only for nvidia.

What is THE best PQ algorithm to use for 1080p when sending out 1080p to my projector? (I ll stay with 1080p outputting for now and let my vw1000 do the 4k upscaling)
rules: Do not ask "what's best" because this question cannot be answered objectively.
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Can you point me in the right direction for the nvidia tweak?
yeah ...

Last edited by huhn; 10th October 2013 at 16:39.
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Old 10th October 2013, 16:47   #20296  |  Link
THX-UltraII
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My bad: i bought a AMD (7950) and not a NVIDIA card.

Ok, so what you recommend for algo for 1080p content?
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Old 10th October 2013, 16:58   #20297  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Werewolfy View Post
Ok here it's a little easier to spot.
Thanks, these should help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StephaneM View Post
I use MPC-HC (to rule out issues with my own software), on an AMD graphic cards (fairly old on my dev machine a HD 4600) on Windows 8.
  • DVB MPEG2 SD Interlaced content with LAV Auto for deinterlacing and set to DXVA2 (native) on EVR : Deinterlacing is Ok (though LAV reports avcodec as the decoder used)
  • DVB H264 HD Interlaced content with LAV Auto for deinterlacing and set to DXVA2 (native) on EVR : Deinterlacing is Ok (LAV reporte dxva2n as the decoder used)
  • DVB MPEG2 SD Interlaced now with madVR (automatic deinterlacing selected): Deinterlacing is Ok
  • DVB H264 HD Interlaced now with madVR (automatic deinterlacing selected): Deinterlacing is not Ok (i would say it's done twice : resulting in heavy stuttering)
There are 3 possible causes that are coming to my mind right now:

(1) Maybe deinterlacing is not activated, for some reason? Please activate the madVR debug OSD (Ctrl+J). It should tell you whether deinterlacing is active or not. If it's not active, you can force it active by pressing Ctrl+Alt+Shift+D multiple times.

(2) Maybe the field order is detected incorrectly? You can change it by pressing Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F.

(3) Maybe your GPU is too slow for the settings you've chosen? In the madVR debug OSD look at the number of dropped frames. Does it increase all the time? If so, try using "Bilinear" for chroma and image scaling as a quick test.

If the problem is not any of these things, maybe you can upload a sample for me to look at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THX-UltraII View Post
My bad: i bought a AMD (7950) and not a NVIDIA card.
Actually, unlike Intel and NVidia, AMD usually offers a limited/full switch in the GPU driver control panel. So AMD does this better than NVidia and Intel, and that's why the madNvLevelsTweaker tool isn't even needed for AMD users. I think the switch is called "pixel format" or something like that. Set it to full range (0-255) or whatever it is called.
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Old 10th October 2013, 17:42   #20298  |  Link
StephaneM
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(1) Maybe deinterlacing is not activated, for some reason? Please activate the madVR debug OSD (Ctrl+J).
It is active. If I deactivated in madVR video is Ok (it is deinterlaced and playing smoothly)

Quote:
(2) Maybe the field order is detected incorrectly? You can change it by pressing Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F.
No doesn't change anything

Quote:
(3) Maybe your GPU is too slow for the settings you've chosen? In the madVR debug OSD look at the number of dropped frames. Does it increase all the time? If so, try using "Bilinear" for chroma and image scaling as a quick test.
There is indeed an impact when changing the downscaling (when I do tests, it's always windowed and so HD video is downscaled).

When I use Nearest Neightbor / Bilinear nothing changes : video stutter badly and madVR reports dropped frames (GPU load 70%), but it doesn't feels like dropped frames.

When I use DXVA2 : video is fine (GPU load 40%)

When I use anything from Mitchell-Netravali to SoftCubic : video is fine (GPU load from 50% to 90%)

When I use anything from Lanczos to Spline : video is not fine (GPU load 90%++), though I think it's because the GPU is clearly overloaded (it looks like normal dropped frames)

Changing chroma upscaling does nothing.

Note : Deinterlacing add approx. 40% of GPU load.

So GPU load explains some of it. Though I do not understand why the video IS deinterlaced even if I turn off deinterlacing in madVR (I can confirm that the video is interlaced)... It's confusing to say the least...
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Old 10th October 2013, 18:22   #20299  |  Link
madshi
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How did you confirm that the video is interlaced? And did you disable deinterlacing in LAV Video Decoder, too?
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Old 10th October 2013, 18:32   #20300  |  Link
StephaneM
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How did you confirm that the video is interlaced?
I load the video into VLC and disable any deinterlacing in VLC and I see comb effect.
Quote:
And did you disable deinterlacing in LAV Video Decoder, too?
Yes in LAV for AMD there is no options to turn on / off hardware interlacing (And of course I do not turn on YADIF software interlacing). Field order is set to Auto / deinterlacing mode is set to Auto

Note : if I set deinterlacing mode to Disabled (progressive) in LAV it doesn't change anything for H264 HD (they seems deinterlaced), while for MPEG2 SD video are not deinterlaced when played back

Oh and I can also confirm that there is no other filters in the graph that would deinterlace without notice (graph = source / splitter / video decoder / renderer)
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