madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[ikarad]

Originally Posted by honai

It's not supposed to "work". If it were active then Vista's color mixer would apply all sorts of post-processing to the movie image, which we don't want. It's really only useful for still images.

No, It works with powerdvd (except with blu-ray), mpc-HC, wmp11 with xp or vista and there is not problem even with hardware acceleration.

use of color profile and use of post processing is not related and has never been related.

[leeperry]

ah, you mean the three 1D graphic card's CLUT is not taken in account?
the only renderer that doesn't care about it is Overlay indeed.

I also hope this will be worked out, as cr3dlut's tables can't embed the CLUT at this point....plus the CLUT actually works in 10-bit!

Originally Posted by ikarad

No, It works with powerdvd (except with blu-ray), mpc-HC, wmp11 with xp or vista and there is not problem even with hardware acceleration.

use of color profile and use of post processing is not related and has never been related.

That is 100% untrue.

The color management of Vista (can't speak of XP) compensates for the display, not for the graphics card. In other words, the sole reason for color management in Vista is because some people have displays with primaries so off that Vista needs to adjust the image to compensate for that defect. On a quality display (Eizo TFTs for desktop, Pioneer/Panasonic TV sets) the default settings are Good Enough (TM), and Vista's color management will do more harm than good to the image, especially since it does not operate in 32/64-bit as madVR does. That's the reason why madVR ignores all of Vista's color management and writes directly to the GPU.

Also, if madVR weren't doing that but instead use Vista's VMR9/EVR interface, in addition to the color management the GPU's "optimizations" for VMR9/EVR would kick in, i.e. colors shifted (especially flesh tones, which most GPU drivers tend to boost), unsharp masking, etc.

So in the end, for the little benefit of ICM color management you'd also get the distortions of GPU-based post-processing. You can't have the one without the other.

[lunkens]

Originally Posted by lunkens

Hello!

MadVR 0.9 worked for me but 0.10 only works in "windowed mode" because if i try to go to "fullscreen mode" i first get similar green screen as Mark0077 but when i exit MPCHC i get a system wide screen error and it gets worst for every second until i reboot but before windows shuts down it unloads Nvidia drivers and then the graphic errors go away.


MPCHC: 1.2.1111.0 x86
ffdshow rev.2895 x86
Microsoft Windows Vista SP1 X64

anyone else got system wide graphics errors?


Madshi: a direct question to you... will there be a x64 version?

follow up:

i tested it on my computer screen and i can with out a problem play the movie at 1600x1200@60Hz in fullscreen and there is no problem at all....

VGA (computer screen)
DVI (projector)
HDMI (nothing)

what could this be?

GPU gets too hot. Overclocked? Or PSU can't handle the GPU load. Or power issues on the mainboard.

Definitely sounds hardware-related.

[ikarad]

Originally Posted by leeperry

ah, you mean the three 1D graphic card's CLUT is not taken in account?
the only renderer that doesn't care about it is Overlay indeed.

I also hope this will be worked out, as cr3dlut's tables can't embed the CLUT at this point....plus the CLUT actually works in 10-bit!

I don't know but the problem is that color profile created by color calibrator (for example lacie blu eye pro) is not used with mad vr. It's like if I select overlay under mpc-Hc.

It's a very big problem and this problem is the same under xp or vista.

I expect that Madshi allow to use color profile created by calibrator if not Madvr is unfortunately useless. And like the large majority (90-95 %) of Monitors (lcd and CRT) are not calibrated and often display bad colors

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by honai

So in the end, for the little benefit of ICM color management you'd also get the distortions of GPU-based post-processing. You can't have the one without the other.

I believe what the man is saying is that a LUT created w/ the ARGYLLCMS package is not taken in account by mVR ?! I don't use mVR atm so I can't really tell.

but anyway, yeah my CRT is way off...so I use a CLUT in the graphic card to get it to D65/2.2, then I do gamut conversion on top of it(HR does let the CLUT through, only Overlay doesn't).

a simple test is to mess w/ the brightness/contrast in pstrip/graphic drivers, mVR should still reflect these changes..or cr3dlut should allow to import the data from ARGYLLCMS...but cr3dlut works in 8bit, the graphic card's CLUT is 10 bit solid(you can measure the CLUT accurary w/ ARGYLLCMS).

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by ikarad

the problem is that color profile created by color calibrator (for example lacie blu eye pro) is not used with mad vr.

I don't know if you mean strictly .ICM profile or LUT files.

HR doesn't care for .ICM files because it's not color managed..but it does care for LUT files in ARGYLLCMS(actually all the renderers do, except Overlay)

anyway, ARGYLLCMS is far more accurate than any other color calibration package, especially in "HQ" mode

Madshi already wrote that in the future he'll implement those controls (brightness/contrast/etc) directly into madVR, so no need to rely on PowerStrip or GPU drivers to do it.

And I already wrote, once you allow the GPU driver to mess with the picture (which is always the case with VRM9/EVR) you'll get all of the inherent post-processing that is invisible in the driver settings and impossible to turn off.

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by honai

Madshi already wrote that in the future he'll implement those controls (brightness/contrast/etc) directly into madVR, so no need to rely on PowerStrip or GPU drivers to do it.

nah, I think we don't understand each other.

I'm not talking about simple .ICM files, I'm talking about calibration LUT files...that are loaded in the graphic card's CLUT.

like the .cal files in ARGYLLCMS :

NUMBER_OF_SETS 256
BEGIN_DATA
0.0000 0.084634 0.0000 0.014302 
3.9216e-003 0.087533 0.0000 0.018032 
7.8431e-003 0.090470 4.8878e-004 0.021810 
0.011765 0.093444 7.9362e-003 0.025639 
0.015686 0.096457 0.015668 0.029520 
0.019608 0.099509 0.023704 0.033453 
0.023529 0.10260 0.032161 0.037440 
0.027451 0.10573 0.041201 0.041482 
0.031373 0.10891 0.050834 0.045580 
0.035294 0.11213 0.060912 0.049735 
0.039216 0.11539 0.071064 0.053957 
0.043137 0.11870 0.080893 0.058254 
0.047059 0.12207 0.090109 0.062628 
0.050980 0.12548 0.098656 0.067077 
0.054902 0.12894 0.10662 0.071598 
0.058824 0.13245 0.11408 0.076191 
0.062745 0.13601 0.12113 0.080850 
0.066667 0.13962 0.12782 0.085563 
0.070588 0.14326 0.13422 0.090308 
0.074510 0.14693 0.14032 0.095068

these are processed in 10bit by the graphic card, and allow a display that has no colorimetry option whatsoever(CRT/LCD typically) to meet D65/2.2

all the PC video renderers let it affect the picture(except Overlay), this would be most welcome that mVR does it too(if that's not already the case)

when you play w/ the contrast/brightness in pstrip, it also modifies that graphic card CLUT.

I see the point. But that is totally unrelated to the VMR/EVR and ICM/color management discussion.

If I recall correctly, madshi will implement that in a future version.

[leeperry]

well it's very much related actually...most ppl need both a 3D LUT to convert gamuts, together w/ a LUT in the 10bit graphic card's CLUT to calibrate their display to D65/2.2. one cannot go w/o the other.

ok well, if it's on the TODO list...perfect

Yes, but the LUT is not related to the color correction of Vista via ICM files, and is not related to color correction in VMR9/EVR. If the graphics card has a LUT it's active independently of the OS's color management. What ikarad wrote, namely that the color profile usage (from ICM files) should be enabled, has nothing to do with the graphics card LUT. Color correction via ICM files is done in software in Windows, not on the GPU. And I suspect that the color correction algorithms of Windows are as bad as their previous generation of sound mixing algorithms.

[Grmpf]

Originally Posted by leeperry

nah, I think we don't understand each other.

I'm not talking about simple .ICM files, I'm talking about calibration LUT files...that are loaded in the graphic card's CLUT.

like the .cal files in ARGYLLCMS :

NUMBER_OF_SETS 256
BEGIN_DATA
0.0000 0.084634 0.0000 0.014302 
3.9216e-003 0.087533 0.0000 0.018032 
7.8431e-003 0.090470 4.8878e-004 0.021810 
0.011765 0.093444 7.9362e-003 0.025639 
0.015686 0.096457 0.015668 0.029520 
0.019608 0.099509 0.023704 0.033453 
0.023529 0.10260 0.032161 0.037440 
0.027451 0.10573 0.041201 0.041482 
0.031373 0.10891 0.050834 0.045580 
0.035294 0.11213 0.060912 0.049735 
0.039216 0.11539 0.071064 0.053957 
0.043137 0.11870 0.080893 0.058254 
0.047059 0.12207 0.090109 0.062628 
0.050980 0.12548 0.098656 0.067077 
0.054902 0.12894 0.10662 0.071598 
0.058824 0.13245 0.11408 0.076191 
0.062745 0.13601 0.12113 0.080850 
0.066667 0.13962 0.12782 0.085563 
0.070588 0.14326 0.13422 0.090308 
0.074510 0.14693 0.14032 0.095068

these are processed in 10bit by the graphic card, and allow a display that has no colorimetry option whatsoever(CRT/LCD typically) to meet D65/2.2

all the PC video renderers let it affect the picture(except Overlay), this would be most welcome that mVR does it too(if that's not already the case)

when you play w/ the contrast/brightness in pstrip, it also modifies that graphic card CLUT.

Isn't that a "problem" of cr3dlut ? Are those 3x 1D LUTs not a subset of one 3D LUT ? I thought you just need 1 3D LUT to cover it all in madVR, let cr3dlut intigrate not only 3 primaries into the YCbCr to RGB convertion, but instead 3x 1D LUTs, or another 3D LUT (17x17x17 like professionals do, or smaller ones) for calibration reasons. Am i wrong that 1 3D LUT can't handle it all ?

EDIT: Just for the Microsoft ICM thing - there is a reason why everyone is using "Adobe(ACE)" in Photoshop and not the "Microsoft ICM"...

[lunkens]

Originally Posted by lunkens

follow up:

i tested it on my computer screen and i can with out a problem play the movie at 1600x1200@60Hz in fullscreen and there is no problem at all....

VGA (computer screen)
DVI (projector)
HDMI (nothing)

what could this be?

i solved it... i first tryed with a strait hdmi-hdmi cable instead of the dvi-hdmi i used before... no change.. then i tryed to update the nvidia driver from 180.xx to 185.85 and it is now FIXED!!

[cyberbeing]

Originally Posted by leeperry

all the PC video renderers let it affect the picture(except Overlay), this would be most welcome that mVR does it too(if that's not already the case)

This is already the case. madVR has always applied the graphic card luts before displaying the picture. The only renderer that doesn't is overlay like you mentioned. Whatever Ikarad is talking about, it's not the graphics card lut.

If he is talking about graphics card lut, I'm curious what graphics card he is using, since it sounds like he is the only person who has experienced this problem.

[leeperry]

oh ok, well AFAIK PowerDVD is not color managed...so I don't see how its VMR9 Renderless presenter could take simple .ICM files in account

anyway, case closed...if mVR does take the graphic card's CLUT in account, there's nothing to see here

@ikarad: I also have the Lacie BlueEyePro(rebadged i1d2), their software is awful...try ARGYLLCMS, I've discussed its usage thoroughly on HCFR w/ MLill

something like "dispcal -v -yc -t6500 -g2.3 -qh test"

@Grmpf: well ideally, if we could input the ARGYLLCMS LUT data in cr3dlut, indeed we'd get an "all in one" 3D LUT(RGB conversion/gamut conversion/display color calibration), but again the graphic card's LUT works in 10bit(you can measure its accuracy w/ ARGYLLCMS...on a CRT it gave 9bit on a HD3850 and 10bit on a GF9600) so better let the graphic card do that part of the work

[yesgrey]

Originally Posted by Grmpf

Isn't that a "problem" of cr3dlut ?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Grmpf

Am i wrong that 1 3D LUT can't handle it all ?

Yes you are.

Stay tuned...

[cyberbeing]

The more I use madVR 0.10, the more I'm starting to realize that it's still not as smooth as Haali Renderer. Haali seems silky smooth, but madVR seems to have slight micro stuttering which makes it seem not as stable on panning scenes. This is particularly noticeable on animated content with strong hard lines. With madVR the lines seem to vibrate during panning scenes more so then Haali.

In any case, madshi, I hope you still have something in mind to improve the smoothness even more to at least match Haali with exclusive mode disabled.

[tetsuo55]

We've talked about interpolation upsampling refresh rate before.

I just saw another thread about a panasonic TV that takes any signal and interpolates that to 600hz.

Now 600 is the lowest value by which all current interlaced and progressive refresh rates are devisable.

I wonder how taxing it would be to interpolate ANY > 600.
then based on the static output setting (24p/50p/60p) the best image would be selected and displayed.

So for a 60P display 1 out of 10 interpolated frames are displayed, the result should be smooth judderfree(even on diffucult pans) playback. However film effect would ofcourse be lost.

I bet a i7 with its 8 threads and a 4770 or faster GPU would be able to do this