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Old 25th February 2009, 00:41   #8381  |  Link
zeropc
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can someone please explain to me why the '"full range" flag should be removed or kept?

thanks
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Old 25th February 2009, 06:23   #8382  |  Link
VonZippa
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When I run "eac3to -test", one of the things I keep seeing is:

Quote:
Haali Matroska Muxer (2009-01-10) is installed
There's a new version (2009-01-11) available
http://haali.net/mkv
The problem is, I have the latest download from that webpage installed, yet I keep getting the same message. I've tried completely uninstalling the old version and then installing, but it does the same thing. What am I missing?
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Old 25th February 2009, 07:48   #8383  |  Link
Snowknight26
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Nothing. The issue is with Haali's website.
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Old 25th February 2009, 08:57   #8384  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit View Post
Awhile back I saw clipping audio when transcoding MP2->AC3. You mentioned it was due to internal bit depth restrictions in libavcodec, which could probably be overcome with a more recent build of libavcodec. Did you ever integrate this?
Not yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeropc View Post
can someone please explain to me why the '"full range" flag should be removed or kept?
This is a flag in the h264 stream which tells the decoder where black and white level are set in the source. Basically with the flag set, black and whites are at PC level. With the flag cleared they are at video level. It's not 100% correct what I'm saying, I think, but you get the picture. Now if you have a video stream where the flag is set incorrectly, and if you have a decoder which honors this flag, you'll either get washed out blacks/whites or you'll get clipped shadow/white detail.

Now virtually all movie and TV sources are encoded to video levels. So the flag should always be turned off. However, some broadcasters (especially some European HDTV broadcasters) have this flag accidently set. Now the sat/cable receiver decoders usually ignore this flag, so the problem doesn't show. But if you play such a stream on e.g. an NMT media player, you'll get wrong black/white level, because the NMT actually honors the flag.

eac3to checks if the flag is set and complains, because the thread is normally supposed to be not set. eac3to can remove it, and even does so by default. If you have a stream where the flag actually needs to be set, you can tell eac3to not to remove it. But I've yet to see such a stream...
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Old 25th February 2009, 10:21   #8385  |  Link
GZZ
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Did you get my file Madshi ?

/GZZ
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Old 25th February 2009, 11:39   #8386  |  Link
Atak_Snajpera
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Quote:
Nothing. The issue is with Haali's website.
haali's website shows correct date because he lives in Russia (Different time zone!)
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Old 25th February 2009, 15:56   #8387  |  Link
laserfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atak_Snajpera View Post
haali's website shows correct date because he lives in Russia (Different time zone!)
That's right--all one has to do to make that Haali error go away is to edit the file date to some time within 11-Jan.

Not sure how many different ways there are to do this but I used Attribute Changer iirc.
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Old 25th February 2009, 17:34   #8388  |  Link
TinTime
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madshi, I feel kind of picky reporting this but anyway, I think I've found a very, very minor bug. If I run...

Code:
eac3to.exe 1.eac3 1.dts -core
...then it causes eac3to to crash. No points for spotting the pointless switch I accidentally used! If I drop the -core it works fine of course, so it's not like there isn't a workaround (i.e. use the tool correctly ). I thought I'd better report it though.

I've tried it with a few eac3 files (all from HDDVD) and it always crashes, so you should be able to replicate it (unless it's a problem with my pc). Let me know though if you want a sample, bug report, etc.
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Old 25th February 2009, 17:46   #8389  |  Link
jmonier
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There appears to be a problem converting RAW/PCM 3.0 (Vicky Cristina Barcelona) to WAV. The center channel ends up being tagged as LFE. eac3to does correctly identify it (although PowerDVD identifies it as LPCM 3.0) but then doesn't seem to handle it as such.

Using -down2 also seems to have a similar problem and apparently throws away what it thinks is the LFE channel.

Last edited by jmonier; 25th February 2009 at 17:49.
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Old 26th February 2009, 07:00   #8390  |  Link
SomeJoe
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madshi,

Thanks for your tool, it works incredibly well.

I'd like to ask (and you would seem to be the best person to answer this) -- why is it that Dolby Digital Plus (.eac3) tracks from HD-DVD cannot be muxed to Blu-Ray and played on a Blu-Ray player? Is there that much of a fundamental difference between the .eac3 used on HD-DVD and what should/could be used on BD?

I own several HD-DVDs and would like to (in some instances) use the HD-DVD .eac3 track directly on a BD back-up, but I've never been able to get it to work. I always have to change the audio to something else (DTS, PCM, or standard AC3).
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Old 26th February 2009, 10:30   #8391  |  Link
73ChargerFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laserfan View Post
That's right--all one has to do to make that Haali error go away is to edit the file date to some time within 11-Jan.
Or... eac3to is updated 50 times each year, and Haali's is only once, or maybe twice. An exception would work for the next 49 weeks.
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Old 26th February 2009, 11:59   #8392  |  Link
xkodi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Don't know why. Maybe the DVD-Audio Explorer does some weird audio processing? I've no idea...
last time i checked "DVD-Audio Explorer" produces the same PCM output, i.e. bit by bit identical, to "DigiOnAudio2 Professional", which is reference DVD-Audio Player/Decoder/Encoder.

p.s. "DVD-Audio Explorer" also supports "SMART" (System Managed Audio Resource Technique) for DVD-Audio: http://patches.sonic.com/pdf/white-p..._dvd_audio.pdf

Last edited by xkodi; 26th February 2009 at 12:18.
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Old 26th February 2009, 22:53   #8393  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeJoe View Post
madshi,

Thanks for your tool, it works incredibly well.

I'd like to ask (and you would seem to be the best person to answer this) -- why is it that Dolby Digital Plus (.eac3) tracks from HD-DVD cannot be muxed to Blu-Ray and played on a Blu-Ray player? Is there that much of a fundamental difference between the .eac3 used on HD-DVD and what should/could be used on BD?

I own several HD-DVDs and would like to (in some instances) use the HD-DVD .eac3 track directly on a BD back-up, but I've never been able to get it to work. I always have to change the audio to something else (DTS, PCM, or standard AC3).
DD+ on HD DVD and on Blu-ray have very little in common and it's unlikely you'll ever get it to work, as a Blu-ray player expects never to see HD DVD-style DD+ tracks and won't know what to make of them.

I wonder whether a dual-format player might have better luck, though? I don't know how separate the HD DVD/BD sides are to these things.
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Old 26th February 2009, 23:40   #8394  |  Link
SomeJoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterjcat View Post
DD+ on HD DVD and on Blu-ray have very little in common and it's unlikely you'll ever get it to work, as a Blu-ray player expects never to see HD DVD-style DD+ tracks and won't know what to make of them.

I wonder whether a dual-format player might have better luck, though? I don't know how separate the HD DVD/BD sides are to these things.
Well, yes, that's what I've read. But it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Why would DD+ be so fundamentally different on HD-DVD compared to Blu-Ray?

No other audio codec for the two formats is different. AC3 is interchangeable, as is all flavors of DTS, PCM, and even TrueHD. (The one small difference on TrueHD is that on HD-DVD, TrueHD can exist without a lossy AC3 core because HD-DVD has TrueHD as a mandatory-support codec, whereas on Blu-Ray, TrueHD is an optional-support codec, and therefore the lossy AC3 core is required).

Why would only DD+ be so fundamentally different that it would be the only audio codec that's not at all interchangeable?

I'm just looking for a bit more insight and explanation than "they're too different", because I'm not sure I can believe that.

Perhaps it's just a question that we don't know enough about the specifications of the format on Blu-Ray (I believe there's only one commercial Blu-Ray disc that uses DD+), or some other knowledge-block that would prevent us from currently being able to do it. But I highly doubt that the two incarnations of DD+ are just fundamentally different.
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Old 27th February 2009, 01:03   #8395  |  Link
nwg
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My Sony S350 BD player is supposed to do DD+. I have done HD DVD to Blu Ray and kept the DD+. I can't actually play DD+, but it comes out as standard DD ok. I can't imagine why it wouldn't come out as DD+ if I had the capability.
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Old 27th February 2009, 02:25   #8396  |  Link
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what is the latest version of the ArcSoft DTS Decoder? and what is the recommended version if any, for use with eac3to?
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Old 27th February 2009, 03:30   #8397  |  Link
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Latest version of dtsdecoder.dll is 1.1.0
Latest version of asaudiohd.ax is from 2/5/2008.

(I'm not sure what eac3to looks for)

Both come with the latest version of tmt, which can be updated for for free with any modern version. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work for some people. I still can't get it to work on Vista64; see my post @ the bottom of this thread:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=139946&page=2
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Old 27th February 2009, 05:43   #8398  |  Link
peterjcat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeJoe View Post
Well, yes, that's what I've read. But it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Why would DD+ be so fundamentally different on HD-DVD compared to Blu-Ray?

No other audio codec for the two formats is different. AC3 is interchangeable, as is all flavors of DTS, PCM, and even TrueHD. (The one small difference on TrueHD is that on HD-DVD, TrueHD can exist without a lossy AC3 core because HD-DVD has TrueHD as a mandatory-support codec, whereas on Blu-Ray, TrueHD is an optional-support codec, and therefore the lossy AC3 core is required).

Why would only DD+ be so fundamentally different that it would be the only audio codec that's not at all interchangeable?

I'm just looking for a bit more insight and explanation than "they're too different", because I'm not sure I can believe that.

Perhaps it's just a question that we don't know enough about the specifications of the format on Blu-Ray (I believe there's only one commercial Blu-Ray disc that uses DD+), or some other knowledge-block that would prevent us from currently being able to do it. But I highly doubt that the two incarnations of DD+ are just fundamentally different.
Well, FWIW here's what Wikipedia has to say:

Quote:
On HD DVD, DD+ is designated a mandatory audio-codec. An HD DVD movie may use DD+ as the primary (or only) audio track. An HD DVD player is required to support DD+ audio by decoding and outputting it to the player's output jacks. As stored on disc, the DD+ bitstream can carry for any number of audio-channels up to the maximum allowed, at any bitrate up to 3.0 Mbit/s.

On Blu-ray Disc, DD+ is an optional codec, and is deployed as an extension to a "core" AC-3 5.1 audiotrack. The AC-3 core is encoded at 640 kbit/s, carries 5 primary channels (and 1 LFE), and is independently playable as a movie audio track by any Blu-ray player. The DD+ extension bitstream is used on players that support it by replacing the rear channels in the 5.1 setup with higher fidelity versions, along with providing a possible channel extension to 6.1 or 7.1. The complete audio track is allowed a combined bitrate of 1.7 Mbit/s: 640 kbit/s for the AC-3 5.1 core, and 1 Mbit/s for the DD+ extension. During playback, both the core and extension bitstreams contribute to the final audio-output, according to rules embedded in the bitstream metadata.
So that sounds pretty different to me. On BD it's a core+extension model similar to DTS-HD but using a legacy DD core; on HD DVD it's a whole new codec with different compression and no core.

I think it's just another historical gift of the format war. Clearly the BD group wanted the studios to include legacy audio so the core+extension or interleaved codecs made sense, Toshiba had control over playback so didn't mind all-new codecs with internal decoding. Dolby developed a lossy codec for each format and called them both DD+.

I'm not saying that they've got nothing in common, but I don't think we can assume they can be easily interchanged.

That said, it's entirely possible that all or most DD+ decoders are in fact capable of decoding both kinds of DD+ but the tools we're using do something bad to DD+ like they have with TrueHD for so long. (eg tsMuxeR flags DD+ as AC3, which can't help). So I definitely think it's worth investigating that.

Last edited by peterjcat; 27th February 2009 at 05:56.
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Old 27th February 2009, 16:24   #8399  |  Link
Thunderbolt8
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what does the message mean which eac3to sometimes gives with some captures "this video track contains the (probably incorrect) 'full range' flag" and what does eac3to do then by default (or how can I see what eac3to does by default and if this is correct?)
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Old 27th February 2009, 17:56   #8400  |  Link
nwg
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Originally Posted by peterjcat View Post
Well, FWIW here's what Wikipedia has to say:



So that sounds pretty different to me. On BD it's a core+extension model similar to DTS-HD but using a legacy DD core; on HD DVD it's a whole new codec with different compression and no core.

.
If HD DVD has no AC3 core, then why would the HD DVD to Blu Ray I did come out as AC3 5.1? It also comes out as AC3 5.1 when I play the EVO files from the pc through the same amp. I am using the original DD+ audio from the HD DVD's and muxed with TsMuxer to make a BD.
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