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Old 11th August 2019, 18:22   #1  |  Link
ThunderFi
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madVR with LG OLED C8

Hey all!

I'm new to this forum and new to all of this basically. I've been doing my best to find information on my own but I wanted to ask a couple of things here.

I'm using my LG C8 when I watch movies from my PC, usually 4K HDR movies. I'm using MPC-HC + madVR. I've read a lot about different options and algorithms and I feel like my setup is mostly good, but there are a couple of things I'm uncertain about. I'm using the correct HDMI cable as well.

It all began when I started noticing some really bad color banding in my 4K HDR movies. I started testing different things and trying to find information from the web. It would seem that the color banding is not that severe when I haven't chosen the PC mode from my TV. If the HDMI input is just 'HDMI' the banding is very small but I still see it certain scenes. The downside is that the picture seems to be less sharp when the HDMI input is not in PC mode. I have enabled HDMI ultra deep color.

In madVR I have selected my TV's native bitdepth as 10 bit (or higher) since the C8 has a 10 bit panel. I have checked with the debug console that the D3D11 fullscreen says 10 bit. My video card settings are at default, which means 8 bit RGB. I have an RTX 2080.

I have chosen the 'passthrough HDR to display' and 'send HDR metadata to the display' in madVR.

Here are the questions:

1. I know my TV's PC mode forces chroma sub sampling 4:4:4. Is this why movies in PC mode seem to be sharper? My 4K HDR movies are 4:2:0 so the 4:4:4 shouldn't come into play, right? Should I use PC mode or just the basic 'HDMI' or something else?

2. RGB output levels in madVR. This is something I just recently figured out to try. When I select TV levels (16-235) and from my TV select black level as low the picture seems to look much better than PC levels (0-255) with black level as high. With PC levels and black level low the picture is way too dark. The gamma setting on my TV is 2.2 and I have selected pure power curve 2.20 in madVR calibration settings. So the question would be, should I keep the TV levels in madVR or is there something weird in my setup? Which one should look better?

3. My TV is not properly calibrated because I don't own the necessary equipment and I haven't bought the services of a professional calibrator. I have tried a lot of different settings in my TV settings based on recommendations from RTINGS from example. Then I have done some tweaking based on what looks better to my eye. Anyway, I read somewhere that most modern TV's are calibrated to BT.2020 and that's why I should choose that in madVR's calibration settings? Or should I choose something else or disable calibration controls entirely?

4. HDR settings in madVR. Is it better to passthrough HDR to the display or should I be using pixel shader tone mapping or external 3DLUT tone mapping?

Like I said I'm still new to all of this. Hopefully someone can answer my questions, I would appreciate it a lot!

Last edited by ThunderFi; 11th August 2019 at 18:25.
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Old 11th August 2019, 20:22   #2  |  Link
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Hey, and welcome to doom9!

1. yes, that's why. 4:4:4 can be relevant, it's all up to you to decide, I personally like it and can live with hdr banding.
But it just recently turned out (at least for me) that it's not ture 4:4:4 (altough really close to it), see below.

2. 3. 4. read through this post and all the provided links in it, after that you can ask

Enjoy!
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Old 11th August 2019, 22:28   #3  |  Link
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chros… not sure what you are seeing or if the B8's older processor is to blame, but on my C8 RGB 4:4:4 is 100% perfect with any and all tests.

QB

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Old 11th August 2019, 22:39   #4  |  Link
Klaus1189
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Do you really see horizontal red and blue lines in the 2s in 4:2:2? Your picture is to blurry.
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Old 12th August 2019, 00:02   #5  |  Link
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I do on my C9. There is crosstalk or similar on LG OLEDs but I wouldn't characterize it as an issue with 4:4:4, simply pixel level panel artifacts that exist in various forms on all available screen techs.
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Old 12th August 2019, 00:24   #6  |  Link
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there are some monitor with no issue with that but that's a far more advanced topic then 4:4:4.
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Old 12th August 2019, 01:54   #7  |  Link
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I have never seen one that didn't do something odd with at least one test pattern that was designed to trigger crosstalk, but it is true that some are very very good. Much better than these OLEDs is common. These OLEDs take a decent amount of power, it is probably hard to electrically isolate every pixel from every other pixel.
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Old 12th August 2019, 02:19   #8  |  Link
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WRGB doesn't make it easier.
it's really unimportant as long as it is not terrible for movies anyway.

this one does really really good: https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/lg/27uk650-w
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:28   #9  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QBhd View Post
not sure what you are seeing or if the B8's older processor is to blame, but on my C8 RGB 4:4:4 is 100% perfect with any and all tests.
No, it isn't, that's what I thought at first as well. As @Asmodian said even C9 is the same, and C8/C7 also. (I was told that maybe 2016 models were different.)
Anyway, you haven't read the first section in the post I linked, have you? (And I linked a potential explanation for it as well.)
Just test with the mentioned image and you'll see what we mean.
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:46   #10  |  Link
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I read it and still can't see what the problem is supposed to be. Anyway, it is what it is.

I just realized that my post in the madVR thread earlier should be here. So I will add my request here as well (I know, bad forum etiquette):

I need a little help. I have a R9 270X that is still kicking (even after it died and I baked it in the oven to bring it back to life), It was more than enough when I had my 1024x768 rectangular pixel "720p" Plasma. When That TV died and I replaced it with a 55" LG C8, I tried playing 4k HDR though the PC, but it didn't work and I just chalked it up to a GPU with only 2GB RAM and HDMI 1.4 so since then I played the 4k HDR content using the TV's built in player.

But today I was farting around with a 4k HDR Blu-ray and it worked on the PC. I can even do HDR.... It took a little tweaking to work in super high bitrate scenes. I cranked CPU and GPU queues to the max (48/24) which makes no sense since queues that big make normal playback of 1080p or less a choppy mess, but the 4k HDR plays like silk (and turns into a choppy mess with 16/8 queue default queue depths) plus queues that big should cause serious RAM shortages shouldn't they? This card has just 2GB... it's odd, but I digress.

Now that I realize can "tone map HDR using pixel shaders", I am curious what should I set "target peak nits" to... I read the C8 can do 820 nits, but I don't have a meter to verify. I know there are a few C8 users here, just trying to pick your brains



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Old 12th August 2019, 12:06   #11  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QBhd View Post
I read it and still can't see what the problem is supposed to be. Anyway, it is what it is.
Take a good look at it (SDR or HDR10 mode, doesn't matter):
"this can be easily visible on the yellow and the bottom row text of Quick brown fox image"

E.g. on the yellow text you'll see red pixels around the yellow ones.
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Old 12th August 2019, 14:24   #12  |  Link
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Okay.. I looked but didn't see anything odd last night... I'll check again when I get home from work, maybe your post should specify what to look for. Stating a test image failed is not enough when the failure is so hard to spot.

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Old 12th August 2019, 19:52   #13  |  Link
ThunderFi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
Hey, and welcome to doom9!

1. yes, that's why. 4:4:4 can be relevant, it's all up to you to decide, I personally like it and can live with hdr banding.
But it just recently turned out (at least for me) that it's not ture 4:4:4 (altough really close to it), see below.

2. 3. 4. read through this post and all the provided links in it, after that you can ask

Enjoy!
Hey and thank you for your reply. How exactly does the 4:4:4 work when the movie itself is 4:2:0? This seems a bit confusing to me but what I suspected apparently is the case then.

I checked the post and read through it. Didn't go through all of the links yet though. A couple of things I want to ask about:

1. The RGB output levels. In the post you linked it was said that 0-255 should be selected from video card control panel. If this is the case, should I then also choose PC levels in madVR's RGB output settings?

2. Okay so I chose DCI-P3 in madVR calibration settings. I haven't created a 3DLUT and I haven't even really read about those yet. There's still so much for me to go through and understand.

3. The color gamut settings. In the post you linked it was said that 'wide' should be selected for SDR content. This contradicts so many other people that have said that 'auto' should be the best option.
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Old 12th August 2019, 20:04   #14  |  Link
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I would say no on the Wide for SDR. I think Extended is closer to what DCI-P3 uses. Color Bars with the Blue Filter get out of whack with wide + DCI-P3. Which to my understanding indicates over blown colors

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Old 13th August 2019, 03:58   #15  |  Link
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@ chros:

So I just re-checked the Quick Brown Fox image... there is no red pixels around the yellow ones... And I think I just blinded myself a little bit since I got right up in there... I will say again, I'm not sure what your are seeing in these 4:4:4 tests. I should also repeat the fact that I have a C8 and it does have a different processor than the B8. And if it does in fact turn out to not be 100% perfect 4:4:4 then it's so damn close as to be perfect.

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Old 13th August 2019, 10:40   #16  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QBhd View Post
And if it does in fact turn out to not be 100% perfect 4:4:4 then it's so damn close as to be perfect.
Yes, it's pretty close to 4:4:4. There are some "crazy" people out there who pointed out this "problem" and I couldn't believe it either, but this is what it is

Quote:
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I would say no on the Wide for SDR. I think Extended is closer to what DCI-P3 uses.
Have you checked with a meter? I did.
And it's "known" out there that the Wide settings is the closest to the native DCPI-P3 gamut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderFi View Post
Hey and thank you for your reply. How exactly does the 4:4:4 work when the movie itself is 4:2:0? This seems a bit confusing to me
madVR has great chroma upscalers: they create 4:4:4 out of the 4:2:0.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderFi View Post
1. The RGB output levels. In the post you linked it was said that 0-255 should be selected from video card control panel. If this is the case, should I then also choose PC levels in madVR's RGB output settings?
That's correct, thanks, I've updated my post with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderFi View Post
2. Okay so I chose DCI-P3 in madVR calibration settings. I haven't created a 3DLUT and I haven't even really read about those yet.
That's a good starting point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderFi View Post
3. The color gamut settings. In the post you linked it was said that 'wide' should be selected for SDR content. This contradicts so many other people that have said that 'auto' should be the best option.
You are right but: those people don't use hardware/software (in our case madVR) that will do color gamut conversion on-the-fly if it's needed
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Old 13th August 2019, 11:20   #17  |  Link
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Just to clarify... those last 3 quotes were NOT quotes of mine

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Old 13th August 2019, 11:29   #18  |  Link
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Just to clarify... those last 3 quotes were NOT quotes of mine
Oh, crap, corrected, thanks!
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Old 13th August 2019, 11:49   #19  |  Link
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@ThunderFi:

I have recently settled into disabled madVR calibration and the technicolor Expert setting for SDR content. I only change three settings OLED up to 56 since my room is not super dark, sharpness up to 20 since I read that is neutral for PC input... and Gamma to 2.2 (again room is not a dark cave). I still want to calibrate at some point, but for now with no gear this seems to be as good as it gets,

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Old 13th August 2019, 13:15   #20  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
Yes, it's pretty close to 4:4:4. There are some "crazy" people out there who pointed out this "problem" and I couldn't believe it either, but this is what it is


Have you checked with a meter? I did.
And it's "known" out there that the Wide settings is the closest to the native DCPI-P3 gamut.


madVR has great chroma upscalers: they create 4:4:4 out of the 4:2:0.


That's correct, thanks, I've updated my post with it.


That's a good starting point.


You are right but: those people don't use hardware/software (in our case madVR) that will do color gamut conversion on-the-fly if it's needed
So, about the DCPI-P3 gamut. Should color gamut 'wide' be selected only for movies? As an example I've been playing Witcher 3 on my TV (the game is running on my PC) and I've noticed that I can't use the game mode because the colors are oversaturated. The game mode forces color gamut to the 'wide' option. I've been using the Expert Bright room/dark room settings when playing. I read somewhere that the input lag should be at least almost the same when I have not enabled any extra picture processing options.

About madVR chroma upscaling. Are you trying to tell me that if my TV is not using PC mode the maximum chroma of 4:2:2 restricts the upscaling of madVR? What I mean is that if my TV is not on PC mode I then madVR can't upscale the picture as good? If that makes sense.

Thanks, I'll change to the PC levels both in NVIDIA Control Panel and in madVR. In NVIDIA CP should I leave everything else at default? I read somewhere that I should leave it at 8 bit RGB full range and let applications do their thing in fullscreen when watching HDR?

Are you saying that because we use madVR the 'Wide' color gamut option for SDR content is just the best option? Why isn't 'Auto' a better option?

Quote:
Originally Posted by QBhd View Post
@ThunderFi:

I have recently settled into disabled madVR calibration and the technicolor Expert setting for SDR content. I only change three settings OLED up to 56 since my room is not super dark, sharpness up to 20 since I read that is neutral for PC input... and Gamma to 2.2 (again room is not a dark cave). I still want to calibrate at some point, but for now with no gear this seems to be as good as it gets,

QB
I see. I've been using the ISF expert dark room/bright room when watching SDR content. With HDR content I've been using the Cinema option. This is based on the recommendations of RTINGS. With SDR content I've also used OLED light 56 and sharpness 20 as well. I think it was RTINGS who claimed that sharpness 20 should be neutral when watched from PC. I also use gamma 2.2.

Do you prefer the technicolor expert over the ISF expert dark room/bright room?

Last edited by ThunderFi; 13th August 2019 at 13:17.
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