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Old 25th January 2013, 00:39   #17181  |  Link
yahyoh
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
You mean you keep the frame skipping key pressed? This works for me, the video visually plays when I do that on my PC with MPC-HC.
yep

i'm using the right arrow key for frame skipping so if try to skip many frames at the same time the video frames will stuck at the same frame until i remove my finger from the key

i'm using latest madvr + latest mpc + latest lav filter
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Old 25th January 2013, 01:32   #17182  |  Link
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What would be the final solution for 24p @ 60 Hz then?

1, 1, 1-2 (blended), 2, 2, 3, 3, 3-4 (blended), 4, 4.... ?
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Old 25th January 2013, 02:15   #17183  |  Link
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Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
What would be the final solution for 24p @ 60 Hz then?

1, 1, 1-2 (blended), 2, 2, 3, 3, 3-4 (blended), 4, 4.... ?
I am curious if this would create ghost image effect during the transition while motion blur effect has already existed in the 24-fps FILM-captured images...
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Old 25th January 2013, 02:22   #17184  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
v0.85.8 should at least make madVR behave similar to other renderers, when using IVTC with a 60Hz display mode. The "final" solution for 24fps @ 60Hz is still some time away. But other renderers don't have a real solution for this right now, either.
I understand. Could you explain in more detail exactly what makes this complicated to deal with? I want to make sure I have a solid answer if people ask me. Oh yeah just one more thing. When I open the madVR OSD with ReClock, my "clock deviation" is always between 0.30218 or similar. The moment I start using DirectSound instead it goes back to 0.00001. Do you know what could cause this to happen? It never gave me any problems, but I'm curious about it. Did some search about what "clock deviation" is and never found an answer too.
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Old 25th January 2013, 03:51   #17185  |  Link
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On madVR 0.85.7 I was using display modes "1920x1200p24, 1920x1200p25, 1920x1200p30" and everything was working fine.
Version 0.85.8 no longer switches to 1920x1200p30 for 30 fps material and instead uses 1920x1200p24. Switching back to 0.85.7 fixes this.

System is Windows 7 on old Athlon 64 and nVidia 9400GT with a Samsung T240HD monitor connected via DVI.
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Old 25th January 2013, 09:02   #17186  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
IIRC, the "x repeat frames every" line only appears if movie framerate and display refresh rate are reasonably close. The DVD is 60i in its original form and the refresh rate is anything even remotely close to 60i, so that's why the "x repeat frames every" line is not showing. I don't understand the clock deviation behaviour, though. When playing 24p, it makes sense that it's around 4% because 24p -> 25p is a bit more than 4% difference. But in the first case you said clock deviation was at 0%. That doesn't make sense if the source is 60i and the refresh rate is 50Hz. Also in that case it doesn't make sense that you saw repeated frames in the OSD. You should not have.
My mistake. I was looking for one of the "dropped/repeated/delayed frame" counters to increase but they didn't. the reason, of course, is because the repeated frame counter is not even there for the same reason the "x repeat frames every" is missing - because MadVR thinks the frame rates are too far apart.

Of course, because of soft-telecine, in fact they are not too far apart and it would be useful (particularly for me with my current MC issue) to see the repeat counter in this case, but I get that is a tricky issue.

At least this means that R1 DVDs are most likely consistent with R2 DVDs in MC, i.e. Videoclock is not currently working, since both show a deviation of 0% for DVD, but a proper corrected figure for .vob. Just a shame we can't see the repeat counter clocking up fast in the R1 case.

Last edited by Jong; 25th January 2013 at 09:07.
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Old 25th January 2013, 10:08   #17187  |  Link
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Originally Posted by yahyoh View Post
i'm using the right arrow key for frame skipping so if try to skip many frames at the same time the video frames will stuck at the same frame until i remove my finger from the key

i'm using latest madvr + latest mpc + latest lav filter
I'm not sure, but this might have to do with the speed of your PC. Are you using DXVA or CUVID decoding? Try software decoding. Or try using Bilinear for everything, just to check if that makes the problem go away.

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Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
What would be the final solution for 24p @ 60 Hz then?

1, 1, 1-2 (blended), 2, 2, 3, 3, 3-4 (blended), 4, 4.... ?
Yes.

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Originally Posted by pie1394 View Post
I am curious if this would create ghost image effect during the transition while motion blur effect has already existed in the 24-fps FILM-captured images...
I don't see why there would be a ghost image effect. Frame blending is used all the time to bring old NTSC 60i TV series to PAL 50i TV and it's not "visible" during motion. Of course when using it to reduce the fps, it reduces quality by making everything quite a bit softer. But that problem shouldn't apply when increasing fps significantly. I expect a proper 24 -> 60 solution to look almost identical to true 24 -> 24 playback.

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I understand. Could you explain in more detail exactly what makes this complicated to deal with? I want to make sure I have a solid answer if people ask me. Oh yeah just one more thing. When I open the madVR OSD with ReClock, my "clock deviation" is always between 0.30218 or similar. The moment I start using DirectSound instead it goes back to 0.00001. Do you know what could cause this to happen? It never gave me any problems, but I'm curious about it. Did some search about what "clock deviation" is and never found an answer too.
There are 3 clocks during video playback:

(1) System clock ("time").
(2) Video refresh rate.
(3) Audio hardware clock.

The system clock really doesn't have anything to do with video playback, but madVR uses it to measure and compare the other two clocks. Now it is possible (even probable) that the system clock is not perfect. But that's not a big problem because if it's e.g. slightly too fast, both video and audio clocks will be measured wrong in the exact same way, so everything's fine.

If the video and audio hardware clocks are "perfect", there should be no dropped or repeated frames (if your PC is fast enough). However, video and audio clocks are usually both imperfect. If both are imperfect in the same way (e.g. being 0.1% too fast), again there's no problem. But if the amount of "deviation from perfectness" of audio and video clocks is not identical then madVR has to either drop frames (video clock slower than audio clock) or repeat frames (video clock faster than audio clock) to make sure video and audio stay in sync.

The refresh rate as shown in the first line in the madVR OSD is madVR's measurement of the video clock, measured by using the system clock. The audio "deviation" in the madVR OSD shows how much the audio clock deviates from "perfectness", measured by the system clock. If e.g. the measured refresh rate is 24.24000Hz (1% too fast for 24.000 content) and the audio deviation is exactly 1%, too, then there should be no frame drops/repeats. If the video/audio deviation differs, there have to be drops or repeats.

Reclock replaces the audio clock. Through real-time audio resampling Reclock makes sure that the audio clock exactly matches the video clock. This way madVR doesn't have to drop or repeat frames. E.g. if the video clock is 0.1% too fast then Reclock makes sure that the audio clock is also 0.1% too fast. Things get more complicated if you ask Reclock to change the playback fps. In that case I would expect the measured audio clock deviation to be much bigger. E.g. if you play 24p content at 25/50Hz I would expect the audio deviation measurement to show a roughly 4% deviation because Reclock achieves the fps change by running the audio clock much faster or slower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oline 61 View Post
On madVR 0.85.7 I was using display modes "1920x1200p24, 1920x1200p25, 1920x1200p30" and everything was working fine.
Version 0.85.8 no longer switches to 1920x1200p30 for 30 fps material and instead uses 1920x1200p24. Switching back to 0.85.7 fixes this.

System is Windows 7 on old Athlon 64 and nVidia 9400GT with a Samsung T240HD monitor connected via DVI.
Hmmmm... I've changed the logic a bit in v0.85.8. In earlier versions 60i content was treated as needing 30Hz, unless DXVA deinterlacing was turned on. In that case it was treated as needing 60Hz. In v0.85.8 60i content is always treated as needing 60Hz, unless madVR knows for sure that DXVA deinterlacing won't be needed. So my best guess is that madVR asks for a 60p mode, but doesn't find it in your list. I'm not sure why it then ends up with 24p. I guess it's because 60i content can sometimes be IVTCed back to 24p. But I guess it would make more sense to use 30p in this situation. I'll put that on my to do list for the next build.

However, I'm wondering if your list of resolutions really makes sense. There is only very very few real 30p content. Most is either film content (after IVTC 24p) or video content (after DXVA deinterlacing 60p). Is your display not able to accept 1080p60?
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Old 25th January 2013, 11:05   #17188  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
There are 3 clocks during video playback:

(1) System clock ("time").
(2) Video refresh rate.
(3) Audio hardware clock.

The system clock really doesn't have anything to do with video playback, but madVR uses it to measure and compare the other two clocks. Now it is possible (even probable) that the system clock is not perfect. But that's not a big problem because if it's e.g. slightly too fast, both video and audio clocks will be measured wrong in the exact same way, so everything's fine.

If the video and audio hardware clocks are "perfect", there should be no dropped or repeated frames (if your PC is fast enough). However, video and audio clocks are usually both imperfect. If both are imperfect in the same way (e.g. being 0.1% too fast), again there's no problem. But if the amount of "deviation from perfectness" of audio and video clocks is not identical then madVR has to either drop frames (video clock slower than audio clock) or repeat frames (video clock faster than audio clock) to make sure video and audio stay in sync.

The refresh rate as shown in the first line in the madVR OSD is madVR's measurement of the video clock, measured by using the system clock. The audio "deviation" in the madVR OSD shows how much the audio clock deviates from "perfectness", measured by the system clock. If e.g. the measured refresh rate is 24.24000Hz (1% too fast for 24.000 content) and the audio deviation is exactly 1%, too, then there should be no frame drops/repeats. If the video/audio deviation differs, there have to be drops or repeats.

Reclock replaces the audio clock. Through real-time audio resampling Reclock makes sure that the audio clock exactly matches the video clock. This way madVR doesn't have to drop or repeat frames. E.g. if the video clock is 0.1% too fast then Reclock makes sure that the audio clock is also 0.1% too fast. Things get more complicated if you ask Reclock to change the playback fps. In that case I would expect the measured audio clock deviation to be much bigger. E.g. if you play 24p content at 25/50Hz I would expect the audio deviation measurement to show a roughly 4% deviation because Reclock achieves the fps change by running the audio clock much faster or slower.
Thanks for the wonderful answer. I better bookmark this so I won't forget where to look up when I want more details. Let's just see if I got this. Basically the problem with 24p@60Hz is that you need to find a way to make the Video and Audio clock to stay sync without the need of repeated or dropped frames. That's hard to do with ReClock because of the way it works (by changing not only the refresh rate, but the video fps as well). I may have got it wrong since this is all news to me but for now that's enough, thanks again.
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Old 25th January 2013, 11:31   #17189  |  Link
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Let's just see if I got this. Basically the problem with 24p@60Hz is that you need to find a way to make the Video and Audio clock to stay sync without the need of repeated or dropped frames. That's hard to do with ReClock because of the way it works (by changing not only the refresh rate, but the video fps as well). I may have got it wrong since this is all news to me but for now that's enough, thanks again.
Wait. My answer was a reply to your question about what that "deviation" information in the OSD means. 24p@60Hz is a different topic. The simple problem with 24p@60Hz is that 60 is not a simple mulitply of 24, which means that every renderer out there today shows a 3:2 motion judder. Basically frame A is shown for 2 vsync periods, then frame A+1 is shown for 3 vsync periods, then frame A+2 for 2 vsyncs, frame A+3 for 3 vsyncs, etc. This uneven frame repeat pattern results in that motion isn't perfectly smooth.
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Old 25th January 2013, 11:33   #17190  |  Link
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Not sure why that is happening. I don't remember anyone else reporting this, so it might be something specific to your PC/installation somehow.
I think I've reported this a long time ago but couldn't find it now. It happens almost every time I try to open a window on my primary display while using exclusive mode on the secondary. It happens both when staring a new application or just restoring a previously minimized one. It also happens when opening new windows in already running app. If you want I can try and record a video of the problem and give you access to my PC if that could help.
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Old 25th January 2013, 12:24   #17191  |  Link
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I think I've reported this a long time ago but couldn't find it now. It happens almost every time I try to open a window on my primary display while using exclusive mode on the secondary. It happens both when staring a new application or just restoring a previously minimized one. It also happens when opening new windows in already running app. If you want I can try and record a video of the problem and give you access to my PC if that could help.
See my reply to Dodgexander.
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Old 25th January 2013, 13:29   #17192  |  Link
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I just tested. I have the same "stuck window" with MPC-HC's exclusive mode for Sync Render (EVR)

So it must be a driver or OS Bug. I think it's a OS Bug, since I use a ATI card and pankov a NVIDIA card. It's unlikely that both drivers have the same bug.

Now how to get MS to fix the Bug?
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Old 25th January 2013, 13:47   #17193  |  Link
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Thanks for that test, Prinz, I'm really relieved that I don't have to spend time on this.
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Old 25th January 2013, 15:10   #17194  |  Link
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When counting frame drops and repeats do we only want to consider if a frame is not shown exactly one time or all unwanted cases? E.g. if we play 24 frames at 48Hz then we have a pattern repeating every frame two times. So don't we want to consider everything less than two a drop and everything above two a repeat (but not counting exactly two repeats)? One could compute something like trunc(number_of_times_a_specific_frame_is_repeated - refresh_rate/framerate_of_movie) where positive values give the number of repeats and negative the drops (trunc rounds to the next integer towards zero direction). Note that for 24 frames at 60Hz this would only count the frames which are shown less than two or more than three times, so it will not detect any irregular patterns i.e. missing smoothness. That's the next thing one could think about.
Maybe someone likes to comment on this.
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Old 25th January 2013, 15:39   #17195  |  Link
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I am curious if this would create ghost image effect during the transition while motion blur effect has already existed in the 24-fps FILM-captured images...
Frame blending isn't perfect but is pretty damn good.

For example, broadcasting US sports in the UK requires the 1080i/30 (or 720p/60) video being converted to 1080i/25 but even those looking for this conversion probably wouldn't notice.

As a complete side note, ideally they'd use high-speed cameras (which they have already) to shoot at 300/600 fps, then they can downsample to both 50 fps and 60 fps without any frame trickery. This'd mean there's two "master signals" though and would probably be rather complicated to configure.
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Old 25th January 2013, 16:05   #17196  |  Link
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When counting frame drops and repeats do we only want to consider if a frame is not shown exactly one time or all unwanted cases? E.g. if we play 24 frames at 48Hz then we have a pattern repeating every frame two times. So don't we want to consider everything less than two a drop and everything above two a repeat (but not counting exactly two repeats)? One could compute something like trunc(number_of_times_a_specific_frame_is_repeated - refresh_rate/framerate_of_movie) where positive values give the number of repeats and negative the drops (trunc rounds to the next integer towards zero direction). Note that for 24 frames at 60Hz this would only count the frames which are shown less than two or more than three times, so it will not detect any irregular patterns i.e. missing smoothness. That's the next thing one could think about.
Maybe someone likes to comment on this.
Many things are possible, but I don't plan any of that. For the forseeable future repeated frames will only be shown if the movie framerate is roughly identical to the display refresh rate.
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Old 25th January 2013, 16:24   #17197  |  Link
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Hmmmm... I've changed the logic a bit in v0.85.8. In earlier versions 60i content was treated as needing 30Hz, unless DXVA deinterlacing was turned on. In that case it was treated as needing 60Hz. In v0.85.8 60i content is always treated as needing 60Hz, unless madVR knows for sure that DXVA deinterlacing won't be needed. So my best guess is that madVR asks for a 60p mode, but doesn't find it in your list. I'm not sure why it then ends up with 24p. I guess it's because 60i content can sometimes be IVTCed back to 24p. But I guess it would make more sense to use 30p in this situation. I'll put that on my to do list for the next build.

However, I'm wondering if your list of resolutions really makes sense. There is only very very few real 30p content. Most is either film content (after IVTC 24p) or video content (after DXVA deinterlacing 60p). Is your display not able to accept 1080p60?
This problem is occurring with 30p content. I don't play any interlaced content on my HTPC (most of it I ripped myself and deinterlaced/IVTCed in AviSynth before encoding with x264/xvid). As such all of my content is 24p, 25p or 30p. The specific content is from an NTSC video DVD that was deinterlaced to 30p then encoded as xvid in avi.

I've since found out that the problem is a little bit more complicated than indicated in my first post. Playing 30p x264/mkv content doesn't cause any problems but 30p xvid/avi does. I added 1920x1200p60 to the display modes and found that the 30p xvid/avi content that was switching to 24Hz now switches to 60Hz. The 30p x264/mkv content still switches to 30Hz. When playing the 30p xvid/avi content at 60Hz switching to exclusive mode triggers a resetting D3D device failed error. After a few seconds the video shows up paused and I can resume playback.

I have found I can fix the problem buy disabling deinterlacing in LAV Video. Then all 30p content plays at 30Hz. But even when deinterlacing is on auto in LAV Filters and the problem occurs, madVR reports deinterlacing off (says upstream). So not sure why changing this setting fixes it.

In any case I think the 60i logic you outlined in your response makes sense, but true 30p content should trigger a switch to 30Hz. Problem may be in LAV though.

Last edited by Oline 61; 25th January 2013 at 16:30.
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Old 25th January 2013, 16:30   #17198  |  Link
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What does the madVR OSD say in the moment when the frame drops occur? If possible, make a screenshot of the OSD in that moment.
The drops usually occur together with frame repeats:


Here is a debug log:
http://www.mediafire.com/?gso55yxhjx97vq4
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Old 25th January 2013, 17:08   #17199  |  Link
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Many things are possible, but I don't plan any of that. For the forseeable future repeated frames will only be shown if the movie framerate is roughly identical to the display refresh rate.
This wasn't a request but a question about concept. What do we want to know? What should the OSD show?
I just thought about that since i was under the impression you mostly left the repeat stats for mismatching frame- and refreshrates out because of counting all repeats doesn't make much sense. So the question is what does make sense for the future?
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Old 25th January 2013, 17:29   #17200  |  Link
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I found a workaround for the "stuck window" problem, with which I can live:

I deactivated in System - Visual Effects the animation for minimizing and maximizing of windows (don't exactly know how it's called in the english Win7 Version). Now I don't have stuck windows anymore and I can live without this animation and still use rest of Aero.

Here is the Setting that I deactivated:
http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/disable-the-maximize-minimize-windows-animation-in-windows-7/

Last edited by Prinz; 25th January 2013 at 17:41.
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