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Old 11th December 2012, 17:23   #16181  |  Link
DragonQ
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It still amazes me how the switches for full range (0-255) and limited range (16-235) sometimes do nothing. It's happened to me with 3 different TVs and 2 different PCs (one with Intel IGP, one with nVidia GPU).
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Old 11th December 2012, 17:32   #16182  |  Link
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@madshi
does madvr support numpad??
i create shortcut "Ctrl+Alt+1", but if i press 1 in numpad(on my laptop) it doesn't work.
i should press 1 located at the top of keyboard for that shortcut.
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Old 11th December 2012, 17:47   #16183  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy View Post
Rule is quite simple - HDMI standard (and CEA861) cover this topic in strict way:
HDMI connection (HDMI mode) use always Limited Quantization Range (i.e. 16-235 for Y and 16-240 for Cx), Full Quantization Range is used only for DVI connection (over HDMI/DVI).
Except thats nonsense, you can easily output full range over HDMI with all GPUs, and plenty TVs accept that just fine and even have options for that.
Written standards are not useful if the reality is just something else entirely.
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Old 11th December 2012, 17:54   #16184  |  Link
jmonier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy View Post
Rule is quite simple - HDMI standard (and CEA861) cover this topic in strict way:
HDMI connection (HDMI mode) use always Limited Quantization Range (i.e. 16-235 for Y and 16-240 for Cx), Full Quantization Range is used only for DVI connection (over HDMI/DVI).
This is certainly the standard for YCbCr (and MAYBE it's a standard for HDMI) but RGB can also be used over HDMI at either video (16-235) or PC (0-255) levels. Any HTPC and some other equipment (Oppo, for instance) can use YCbCr (16-235 only) OR RGB at either video or PC. Most (if not all) monitors and projectors can be used the same way.

In particular, madVR uses RGB (only) at either video or PC (and either works fine over HDMI), so it's not as simple as you seem to think.

(The difference between DVI and HDMI is only in the connectors and in the fact that HDCP is optional for DVI and mandatory for HDMI.)
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Old 11th December 2012, 17:54   #16185  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Except thats nonsense, you can easily output full range over HDMI with all GPUs, and plenty TVs accept that just fine and even have options for that.
Written standards are not useful if the reality is just something else entirely.
Ask vendor about HDMI compliancy statement and ask HDMI organization about this - i have personal impression that HDMI and HDCP are poor standards, invented in rush without sense.

What is quite funny - AVI infoframe provide required information that source output video with Full or Limited Quantization Range and customer shall be not even bothered for such problem - however drivers are written sometimes by people without any HW experience - then you have problem and real headache...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmonier View Post
This is certainly the standard for YCbCr (and MAYBE it's a standard for HDMI) but RGB can also be used over HDMI at either video (16-235) or PC (0-255) levels. Any HTPC and some other equipment (Oppo, for instance) can use YCbCr (16-235 only) OR RGB at either video or PC. Most (if not all) monitors and projectors can be used the same way.

In particular, madVR uses RGB (only) at either video or PC (and either works fine over HDMI), so it's not as simple as you seem to think.

(The difference between DVI and HDMI is only in the connectors and in the fact that HDCP is optional for DVI and mandatory for HDMI.)
Difference between DVI and HDMi is much bigger than only connector but this is irrelevant for this problem.

excerpt from HDMI specification:
"6.6
Video Quantization Ranges
Black and white levels for video components shall be either “Full Range” or “Limited Range.”
YCBCR components shall always be Limited Range while RGB components may be either Full
Range or Limited Range. While using RGB, Limited Range shall be used for all video formats
defined in CEA-861-D, with the exception of VGA (640x480) format, which requires Full Range."

This is quite straightforward definition or i misunderstood meaning of the word "shall"

Last edited by pandy; 11th December 2012 at 18:00.
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Old 11th December 2012, 18:07   #16186  |  Link
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PotP new version

@leeperry with support for PS in Madvr!
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Old 11th December 2012, 18:10   #16187  |  Link
jmonier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
It still amazes me how the switches for full range (0-255) and limited range (16-235) sometimes do nothing. It's happened to me with 3 different TVs and 2 different PCs (one with Intel IGP, one with nVidia GPU).
Some TV's clip the output to the specified range so you can never see BTB and WTW even though the the blacks and whites are correct for the specified range.

There are a number of reasons for what you've seen and it depends on the setup at both ends, as well as the test pattern used, to explain it.
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Old 11th December 2012, 18:17   #16188  |  Link
DragonQ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmonier View Post
Some TV's clip the output to the specified range so you can never see BTB and WTW even though the the blacks and whites are correct for the specified range.

There are a number of reasons for what you've seen and it depends on the setup at both ends, as well as the test pattern used, to explain it.
What I mean though is that literally nothing happens when changing the setting. Not even a brief flash of the screen you'd see when changing the resolution or refresh rate, pressing the "OK" button in the settings window does bugger all; I have no idea if the output has actually changed or not!
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Old 11th December 2012, 18:18   #16189  |  Link
jmonier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy View Post
excerpt from HDMI specification:
"6.6
Video Quantization Ranges
Black and white levels for video components shall be either “Full Range” or “Limited Range.”
YCBCR components shall always be Limited Range while RGB components may be either Full
Range or Limited Range. While using RGB, Limited Range shall be used for all video formats
defined in CEA-861-D, with the exception of VGA (640x480) format, which requires Full Range."

This is quite straightforward definition or i misunderstood meaning of the word "shall"
I never denied that the spec MIGHT say that. If the spec does say that, then it is most often ignored (and ALWAYS for HTPC's).

If you try to give advice then you should be sure you understand what is done in the real world and give advice based on that, not just on a spec.

Last edited by jmonier; 11th December 2012 at 18:32.
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Old 11th December 2012, 18:30   #16190  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
What I mean though is that literally nothing happens when changing the setting. Not even a brief flash of the screen you'd see when changing the resolution or refresh rate, pressing the "OK" button in the settings window does bugger all; I have no idea if the output has actually changed or not!
You would certainly see a change if you were looking at a the proper test pattern. Since this change is just a level setting (one or two parameters and minor as far as the processing being done), it can be implemented without the flashing, etc. that occurs on a resolution or refresh rate change (which is a MAJOR reconfiguration in the video card). So, it's not at all surprising.
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Old 11th December 2012, 18:50   #16191  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kasper93 View Post
Yes, you are right. No freeze with minimum queues and trick with "delay playback start after seeking" also prevent freeze.
Thanks, good to know. It confirms that it's most probably a bug in the decoders. I think I should be able to workaround this problem then, on the cost of a surface copy (so ever so slightly slower performance).

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoP View Post
does madvr support numpad??
Yes. E.g. "Ctrl+Alt+Numpad1".

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallengt View Post
I use my laptop (dual graphic cards - intel iGPU 3000 and ATI 6770M) as a HTPC, it connect to panny plasma ST50 via HDMI-HDMI cable. This TV is euro model and doesn't have black level control unlike NA model. I assume it's at Standard (16-235) so I set dymanic range inside Intel graphic properties to Limited (which is RGB 16-235 ??) and set both Madvr/Lav video decoder at PC level (0-255). Everything work fine but not sure if it's the best configuration for me
Changing anything makes my screen completely washed out.
My commendation would be to set your GPU to 0-255 and then let madVR do the conversion to 16-235. That makes sense only if you're only connecting your laptop to your Plasma to play video with madVR. If you only want to look at photos, use the PC for games and other stuff, then your current setup makes more sense, although it might introduce some banding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy View Post
What is quite funny - AVI infoframe provide required information that source output video with Full or Limited Quantization Range and customer shall be not even bothered for such problem - however drivers are written sometimes by people without any HW experience - then you have problem and real headache...
I think NVidia has a control panel option which might set/switch this information in the AVI infoframe, totally independent of what range *really* is sent, but I'm not 100% sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy View Post
Difference between DVI and HDMi is much bigger than only connector but this is irrelevant for this problem.

excerpt from HDMI specification:
"6.6
Video Quantization Ranges
Black and white levels for video components shall be either “Full Range” or “Limited Range.” YCBCR components shall always be Limited Range while RGB components may be either Full Range or Limited Range. While using RGB, Limited Range shall be used for all video formats defined in CEA-861-D, with the exception of VGA (640x480) format, which requires Full Range."
Well, the HDMI spec may be saying that, but that doesn't mean this is true in real life at all. For example, I don't think the GPU can know for sure whether the connected display is truely a HDMI display, or whether an active or passive HDMI->DVI converter is involved anywhere. So the GPU can't know for sure whether it should send Full Range or Limited Range. Furthermore, AFAIK, both the PS3 and the Xbox have settings to switch RGB output between Full Range and Limited Range. And many display have matching input options, too. So the GPU can only guess which mode the display is currently set to. Finally, CEA-861-D defines only a handful of specific modes, IIRC. Now what happens if you take a CEA-861-D mode, and just change the pixel clock slightly? Is it then still considered a CEA-861-D mode? Or is it then a non-CEA-861-D mode?

I strongly believe that the GPUs should offer an option to let the user choose whether to output Limited or Full Range. AMD has such an option. Intel, too, I think, although I've been told that the Intel option doesn't always work as expected (it seems to be reversed or something like that). Only NVidia doesn't offer this functionality. But at least there's a registry hack available to make NVidia output Limited Range RGB over HDMI.
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Old 11th December 2012, 19:47   #16192  |  Link
6233638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy View Post
excerpt from HDMI specification:
"6.6
Video Quantization Ranges
Black and white levels for video components shall be either “Full Range” or “Limited Range.”
YCBCR components shall always be Limited Range while RGB components may be either Full
Range or Limited Range. While using RGB, Limited Range shall be used for all video formats
defined in CEA-861-D, with the exception of VGA (640x480) format, which requires Full Range."

This is quite straightforward definition or i misunderstood meaning of the word "shall"
Who cares about the spec? What matters is what manufacturers are using.

The majority of new displays now support Full Range over HDMI, and some TVs like my Sony sets, even send the correct information to a PC to enable full range support without needing to change anything. (no driver/registry editing required here, it outputs 0-255 over HDMI automatically)
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Old 11th December 2012, 20:02   #16193  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Thanks, good to know. It confirms that it's most probably a bug in the decoders. I think I should be able to workaround this problem then, on the cost of a surface copy (so ever so slightly slower performance).
Haha, didn't i predict that no decoders obeyed the buffer requests?
I think EVR does the copy as well, because it doesn't really require any extra buffers. But you can always avoid the copy with LAV.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 11th December 2012 at 20:05.
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Old 11th December 2012, 20:05   #16194  |  Link
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I'll throw in my anecdotal 2 cents.

I recently got an LED LG. I'd been running my Radeon HD 5670 with YCbCr 4:4:4 connected to an old LCD LG. madVR was set to defaults (except scaling). With the new TV, colors were horribly washed out watching US cable TV (Ceton InfiniTV 4, Windows Media Center).

I then set the 5760 to use Full RGB and TV viewing improved greatly. But when I played a few videos via MPC-HC, blacks were crushed. I poked around madVR, deleted the display device that was installed with it(?), and set the LG to "expects TV levels (16-235)" et voila! AVIs, mkvs, etc., all looked much better. The effect was similar to setting the LG's Black Level to High (which normally washes them out). But that's a PITA, as it has to be reset to Low for TV viewing.

So, in short, I love madVR, esp. running Jinc 3-taps with AR for chroma and image (software decoding in LAV via a Core i5)
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Old 11th December 2012, 20:58   #16195  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

My commendation would be to set your GPU to 0-255 and then let madVR do the conversion to 16-235. That makes sense only if you're only connecting your laptop to your Plasma to play video with madVR. If you only want to look at photos, use the PC for games and other stuff, then your current setup makes more sense, although it might introduce some banding.
Banding is always an issue with plasma, manufacters use dithering to avoid it. I don't notice any banding/dithering on my set unless stay very close to it.

But I'll try your method to see any different anyway. Thanks
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Old 11th December 2012, 21:45   #16196  |  Link
DragonQ
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Originally Posted by jmonier View Post
You would certainly see a change if you were looking at a the proper test pattern.
Nope.
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Old 11th December 2012, 22:16   #16197  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toniash View Post
@leeperry with support for PS in Madvr!
Gotcha! And it also supports "=" for frame rate and movie dimensions automatic profiles conditions so my evil plan is bound to become reality

There's only very slight issue, though...it's that post-scaling PS scripts seem to be processed pre-, that's build 34665 with EVR CP:

and now 34821, also with EVR CP:

same goes with mVR, but I've notified them about the issue and I'm not entirely sure whether gamut mapping should be processed before or after scaling.......yesgrey told me ages ago that it would be preferable to work on the right colors ASAP but madshi seemed to disagree, and I would guess that in 32fp/16int, it prolly wouldn't matter IRL anyway

JanWillem isn't very clear about what scripts would be better used pre- or post- either, so that doesn't really help.

PS: they've acknowledged the bug in PotP and it will be fixed

PPS: if you want the script to be used in PS 3.0, you need to add this on the very top of it:
Quote:
// script=ps_3_0

Last edited by leeperry; 12th December 2012 at 14:52.
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Old 12th December 2012, 00:03   #16198  |  Link
orangedude
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madVR icon not appearing during playback

Hi,

Not sure if this is the right place to post this... but I'm currently trying to configure my videos to playback using madVR.

I'm using LAV splitters. I've tried both PotPlayer and MPC. Basically, I can select madVR as the video renderer and play the video with it in both players, but the madVR icon never appears in the taskbar during playback, thus I'm not able to configure any of the madVR settings. The default appears washed out and lacks processing.

My OS is Windows 8 Pro.

Any ideas about how to fix this?

Thanks!

Last edited by orangedude; 12th December 2012 at 00:06.
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Old 12th December 2012, 00:07   #16199  |  Link
DragonQ
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Originally Posted by orangedude View Post
Hi,

Not sure if this is the right place to post this... but I'm currently trying to configure my videos to playback using madVR.

I'm using LAV splitters. I've tried both PotPlayer and MPC. Basically, I can select madVR as the video renderer and play the video with it in both players, but the madVR icon never appears in the taskbar during playback, thus I'm not able to configure any of the madVR settings. The default appears washed out and lacks processing.

My OS is Windows 8 Pro.

Any ideas about how to fix this?

Thanks!
In MPC-HC: Play -> Filters -> MadVR -> Edit Settings (or Show Tray Icon).
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Old 12th December 2012, 00:44   #16200  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
In MPC-HC: Play -> Filters -> MadVR -> Edit Settings (or Show Tray Icon).
Oh, that seemed to work in MPC-HC, but still not in PotPlayer for some reason. Could it have anything to do with the fact that I'm using the x64 version of PotPlayer?
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