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Old 4th December 2010, 21:45   #401  |  Link
RugRat
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no time just now, will play around with it on monday and let you know what i find.
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Old 6th December 2010, 18:51   #402  |  Link
lithiumus
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It is the original hd audio, streams with no problem, but when i put it on to disk i get cinavia,
Wait a minute... are you streaming the full HD audio or just the core AC3 track?
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Old 6th December 2010, 19:00   #403  |  Link
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We know this system is proven against DCT-based algorithms and cheap microphones. Has anyone tried a wavelet-based compression system to see if it stands up against that?
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Old 9th December 2010, 23:16   #404  |  Link
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@wswartzendruber

Hi!
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Has anyone tried a wavelet-based compression system to see if it stands up against that?
Is that something YOU can do?

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Old 13th December 2010, 14:36   #405  |  Link
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Hi, I noticed this thread and had a good read through after I had been caught out by this protection myself. I'm am certainly no expert at this but thought I would post some experiments I have carried out and some 'work-arounds'. All my experiments were carried out using a PS3.

1. Re-encode and speed up by 10%. My assumption here was that a 10% increase would not be too noticeable which actually it isn't - FAIL. The cinavia protection still kicked in.
2. Re-encode and slow down by 10%. Just thought I'd test the other way on and see if that worked - FAIL. The cinavia protection still kicked in.
3. Split the movie into 15 minute sections. I figured if the protection kicks in at 'around' 20 mins then watching 15 min chunks could bypass it - FAIL. The protection kicked in 5 mins into the second section.
4. Re-encode and slow down by 50% (bear with this one) - SUCCESS. This does bypass the cinavia protection but obviously 50% is noticeable. I tried this after someone reported that playing a movie at 1.5x speed got round the protection so I thought slow it down so it sounds ok when speeded up. Unfortunately this doesn't work so the watermark does appear to be based on a repeating pattern within a certain time.
5. A fix that worked for me on the PS3 is to tweak the sound settings in the following way: Go to settings > Sound Settings, select the optical option and place a tick against every possible output type. Set the option relating to sound from multiple sources to 'On'. For some reason, with these sound options set, the Cinavia watermark isn't picked up? I haven't got a clue why this is but perhaps someone else does.
6. Another workaround on a PS3 is as follows: Play the movie till the protection pops up, quit the movie and change the time back 1 hour. Resume playback and protection kicks in straight away, quit movie and change time back to current time. When you resume playback now you get another 20 mins.

I ran some other tests to determine in what time frame the watermark is stored. Basically I re-encoded several 1 minute movies with a repeating section of sound cut from a cinavia watermarked movie. I used a repeating section ranging from 1 second to 12 seconds, played a watermarked movie till cinavia kicked in after the usual 20ish minutes and then tried playing the series of 1 minute movies. Cinavia didn't kick in on the 1 or 2 second repeated sections, it did kick in on the 3 second repeated section after 25-35 seconds. On all the other sections from 4 to 12 it kicked in within 6-15 seconds. I can only assume from this that the cinavia watermark is completely held within 4 seconds. Hopefully this info will help anyone who knows more about audio files to figure out how it works.

p.s. I also tried turning an audio stream backwards, this makes no difference and Cinavia protection still kicks in.

Last edited by Eza17; 13th December 2010 at 15:27. Reason: Extra information
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Old 13th December 2010, 17:08   #406  |  Link
mike20021969
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I also tried turning an audio stream backwards, this makes no difference and Cinavia protection still kicks in.
Maybe this indicates the inaudible watermark pattern is the same forwards as it is backwards.
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Old 14th December 2010, 16:58   #407  |  Link
Eza17
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I think it indicates that it's a vertical pulse of some kind (don't know if that's a propper description for a sound file!) and this 'pulse' needs to be repeated 'x' times in a given time frame.

Another interesting point from my experiments was that when I split the movie into 15 minute sections, the first section took consistently longer to mute the sound than the other sections (after repeated tests once the initial 20min 'grace period' had been used). The first section has a silent start, proving that although the watermark is 'inaudible', it still needs some sound to be present.

I might try and find a 'relatively' inactive area in the movie with not much sound or a single continuous sound and try an opposite approach than normal, find the simplest sound file which still contains the watermark.
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Old 14th December 2010, 19:52   #408  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eza17 View Post
5. A fix that worked for me on the PS3 is to tweak the sound settings in the following way: Go to settings > Sound Settings, select the optical option and place a tick against every possible output type. Set the option relating to sound from multiple sources to 'On'. For some reason, with these sound options set, the Cinavia watermark isn't picked up? I haven't got a clue why this is but perhaps someone else does.
this is not working for me!

my ps3 is pal slim 250gb retail hdd fw 3.41...

tested with h264 + aac stereo in mp4 from internal end external hdd...

what type of audio did you use? (codec, nr of channels, container, transcoded or original, what movie)? did you played from internal, external, disk, network? your ps3 config?
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Old 15th December 2010, 10:03   #409  |  Link
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this is not working for me!

my ps3 is pal slim 250gb retail hdd fw 3.41...

tested with h264 + aac stereo in mp4 from internal end external hdd...

what type of audio did you use? (codec, nr of channels, container, transcoded or original, what movie)? did you played from internal, external, disk, network? your ps3 config?
_
Hi, sorry I'll have to check all the details and post them later for you but the things I do know are:

Movie: Resident Evil Afterlife
PS3: Slim 120gb & Fat 80gb, both on firmware 3.55
Played from: External disk, connected by USB
Audio is through HDMI cable.

I'll check the other things later and post them.
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Old 16th December 2010, 11:14   #410  |  Link
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Hi, the audio details are as follows:

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version : Version 4
Format profile : LC
Format settings, SBR : No
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 1h 36mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 502 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 516 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Rear: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Stream size : 348 MiB (16%)
Title : Resident Evil Afterlife
Language : English
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Old 17th December 2010, 00:30   #411  |  Link
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thanks a lot for the tip...now is working!
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Old 17th December 2010, 02:52   #412  |  Link
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can anyone try to encode to AAC-HEv2 with SBR and PS and see if the cinavia still kicks in?
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Old 17th December 2010, 04:06   #413  |  Link
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ps3 dont have support for this...
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Old 17th December 2010, 04:27   #414  |  Link
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ChiDragon's samples are different mixes.

there's time delays between different elements in the mix, also the dynamics are different (clearly visible on the final fadeout).

we need more samples like this though! it's useful.

the speed and/or phase seem to vary - i got clear comb-filter flanging patterns on the subtracted output, and the phase seemed to vary. it's hard to tell whether this is the mix or not.

one thing that seems possible - the cinavia version seemed to have some of its transients "doubled up", and some things appeared moved in time relative to each other, rather like a time-stretch based on time-domain splicing would do.

my 2 cents about the approach to take - we need to dissect the blu-ray authoring and mastering workflow to find out at what point it is introduced. my bet is on the encoder side, but it's possible there's a VST plugin and it happens in the sound-mix. we should search for products and white-papers or processes offered by the companies making these discs.
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Old 17th December 2010, 10:54   #415  |  Link
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The theatrical mark, at least, is added in mixing: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post19401075
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Old 20th December 2010, 19:58   #416  |  Link
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two new BDs join the party: "Takers" and "The Social Network"...
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Old 20th December 2010, 21:36   #417  |  Link
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According to DVDFab Passkey, "The Other Guys" Blu-ray, a SONY release, contains Cinavia protection...

(I wonder what Passkey reads in order to determine that?)
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Old 20th December 2010, 21:40   #418  |  Link
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According to DVDFab Passkey, "The Other Guys" Blu-ray, a SONY release, contains Cinavia protection...

(I wonder what Passkey reads in order to determine that?)
A database from what I understand. I forget where I saw it discussed, but, I don't believe it's scanning the disc for Cinavia if that's the implication you were making. I believe they're using a database of known Cinavia titles. But again, I can't quote a source on that.
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Old 20th December 2010, 22:47   #419  |  Link
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Sony releases have the cinavia logo on the case cover.
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Old 20th December 2010, 22:51   #420  |  Link
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Sony releases have the cinavia logo on the case cover.
Sure, but, DVDFab PassKey isn't looking at the cover to know that. Maybe that's how they're creating an internal database of titles so that when you insert one it knows.
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