Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 23rd February 2013, 09:01   #17681  |  Link
Qaq
AV heretic
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 422
With 0.86.0 I'm still have a blank screen with DXVA (decoding and image scaling) after changing from window to FSE modes. The workaround is: start playback - pause (fast) - switching to FSE - unpause.
Windows7, ATI 7750, CCC 12.8.
Qaq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 09:44   #17682  |  Link
madshi
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by THX-UltraII View Post
1. How do I fix the BTB (grey desktop) problem that the Intel intergrated Graphics 2000 has?

2. How can I make a 23,976Hz custom profile? The default 23Hz profile is 23,972 and I want to aim for 23,976XXX. When I choose Custom Resolutions I can only fill in round number and no numbers like 23,976, only 23/24/25 etc.
I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niyawa View Post
Also, could you take a look at this little fellow post. He seems to be having problems with exclusive mode off (windowed I believe) and when you see the youtube video he posted, it kinda reminds me of tearing but I'm not sure. Apparently he changed his monitor refresh rate to 24 hz to match the 24p video to eliminate judder but got that problem instead.
Yes, this is tearing. It can happen in windowed mode if you have Aero / Desktop Composition turned off. Sometimes it even happens with it turned on, in that case a reboot often helps. This is one of the advantages of FSE mode: There tearing should never ever occur, unless the hardware or drivers are broken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Sample 1 still looks very unsmooth with FRC. I can't say for sure if maybe this has to be since I can't watch it in native 24Hz atm.
Download:
http://www22.zippyshare.com/v/7254850/file.html
Yes, it's not smooth, but it looks the same way with native 24Hz. Fast horizontal camera pans *CAN'T* look totally smooth with 24fps, unless you film them with a lot of blur. For a long time fast horizontal camera pans have been avoided in movie filming for this reason. But lately it seems film makers don't care as much about this, anymore.

FRC does not reduce judder that is in the source. It "only" simulates a display which can display 24Hz natively. If a proper 24Hz display shows judder with a specific 24fps movie, then so will madVR's FRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
With sample 2, watch for the dust between the trees. It looks very nervous/flickering with FRC. Without not. imho clearly an unwanted side effect.
Download:
http://www67.zippyshare.com/v/94753150/file.html
Hmmmm... I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing here. Which "dust between the trees" do you mean? I'm not even sure where to look. Can you clarify?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bugmen0t View Post
The rendering times increased a lot with v0.86.1 for me. Is this intended, better quality etc?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
Noticed this too. About 8-10 ms increase on an Intel HD 2000 (not my main computer)
The render times *measurements* increased because I had to add a forced flush for the FRC rendering steps to make the occasional artifacts go away. But the *actual* rendering times shouldn't have increased much. Or do you get stuttering / dropped frames now which you didn't get before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Thanks. I can confirm that all of these logs should have resulted in FRC being turned off. I've found a very simple and stupid bug which caused this problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaq View Post
With 0.86.0 I'm still have a blank screen with DXVA (decoding and image scaling) after changing from window to FSE modes. The workaround is: start playback - pause (fast) - switching to FSE - unpause.
Windows7, ATI 7750, CCC 12.8.
I don't see this bug in the madVR bug tracker. Do you?
madshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 10:01   #17683  |  Link
bugmen0t
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: _Lies|Greed|Misery_
Posts: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Or do you get stuttering / dropped frames now which you didn't get before?
Need to do more testing first.

With your general FRC approach the blended frames are generated at irregular points in time, right? Wouldn't it be beneficial to have a fixed pattern like e.g. repetition, blend, repetition, blend, ... at least when using ReClock?
bugmen0t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 11:05   #17684  |  Link
aufkrawall
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Yes, it's not smooth, but it looks the same way with native 24Hz. Fast horizontal camera pans *CAN'T* look totally smooth with 24fps, unless you film them with a lot of blur. For a long time fast horizontal camera pans have been avoided in movie filming for this reason. But lately it seems film makers don't care as much about this, anymore.

FRC does not reduce judder that is in the source. It "only" simulates a display which can display 24Hz natively. If a proper 24Hz display shows judder with a specific 24fps movie, then so will madVR's FRC.
Ok, thanks for explaining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hmmmm... I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing here. Which "dust between the trees" do you mean? I'm not even sure where to look. Can you clarify?
Maybe I was a little oversensitive. Now in a non darkened room I don't really notice it anymore. I guess it's again a "broken source", maybe the effect just naturally increases a little with FRC.

I noticed that display mode changer still changes to 59.94Hz for 23.976fps videos even though FRC is set to be always enabled.
Wouldn't it make sense to change its logic that it doesn't change resolution with FRC?

Uhm, what about FRC for e.g. 60fps@60Hz? Is there much blur to be expected?
Otherwise it'd like to get rid of Reclock.
Edit: Ah, found the answer in your first post of 0.86.

Btw: I've tested a 3 minutes 60fps video, no frame drops.

Last edited by aufkrawall; 23rd February 2013 at 22:20.
aufkrawall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 11:39   #17685  |  Link
TheElix
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
To my best knowledge madVR is now the only way to playback Blu-Ray/DVD movies without 3:2 pulldown judder on displays which don't support 23.976Hz playback properly. I don't think any hardware Blu-Ray player can do that, or even any of the expensive video processors. (Correct me if I'm wrong).
You, sir, are a wizard and a messiah of HTPC world!
TheElix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 12:33   #17686  |  Link
squall12
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 7
Hi madshi,

If i am using 23hz refresh rate at my samsung lcd tv with the tv smooth motion function mean i dont get any advantage using the madvr frc?

Thanks
squall12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 15:05   #17687  |  Link
Niyawa
Registered User
 
Niyawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Neverland, Brazil
Posts: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Yes, this is tearing. It can happen in windowed mode if you have Aero / Desktop Composition turned off. Sometimes it even happens with it turned on, in that case a reboot often helps. This is one of the advantages of FSE mode: There tearing should never ever occur, unless the hardware or drivers are broken.
I see, thanks. But if rebooting doesn't solve the problem (without FSE) isn't there anything more we could do? Just in case.
__________________
madVR scaling algorithms chart - based on performance x quality | KCP - A (cute) quality-oriented codec pack
Niyawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 15:16   #17688  |  Link
druneau
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 18
Is it possible to run the SmoothMotion madTestPatternSource at a user specified fps?

I tried just renaming one to SmoothMotion120.ytp as a test and it defaulted to 23p.

The other thing I was wondering, I ran 24p side by side with 60p in another player because I wanted to explain to someone the difference between having more source images vs smoothness etc...

But to my surprise the bars were not scrolling at the same speed. I'm guessing this was intentional/side effect of the implementation. It's probably not an easy switch, especially if you would have to generate different source material. But I might be helpful to have the different SmoothMotion test patterns moving at the same overall speed?

And thank you for such a great piece of software. I'm slowly converting people around me to madVR. The FRC option will make it even easier for people to have smooth playback with minimal effort.

Last edited by druneau; 23rd February 2013 at 15:22.
druneau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 15:53   #17689  |  Link
oddball
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,263
Madshi is xy-vsfilter work still in progress for high def subs? Also is some form of motion compensation on the cards for the future? I'd like to see motion compensation with some form of control element to it (My TV's is one setting only and it's horrid).
oddball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 17:45   #17690  |  Link
shimaflarex
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I don't know.
The render times *measurements* increased because I had to add a forced flush for the FRC rendering steps to make the occasional artifacts go away. But the *actual* rendering times shouldn't have increased much. Or do you get stuttering / dropped frames now which you didn't get before?
I do get more dropped frames with 0.86.1, smooth motion turned on, new exclusive mode.

Using "use a separate device for presentation", my render queue seems to get stuck on 0-3/8, and I get dropped frames all the time. If I pause the video, it goes to 0-8 / 8, but it quickly drops to 0-3 / 8 on playback.

Now, without "use a separate device for presentation", something very weird happens. The render queue stays on 5-6/8 on playback, but if I pause the video, click on Edit Settings on madVR preferences, click Ok without changing anything, and unpause the video...the render queue gets stuck on 0-3 / 8. If I just open the madVR preferences dialog and close it without clicking on Edit Settings, I don't have this issue.

Edit: Hm, the render queue does seem to get stuck on 0-3 after a while, even if I don't open the Edit Settings dialog. Opening it is however a sure way to trigger this.

On madVR 0.86, I don't have this issues, just out of order frames with "use a separate device for presentation" turned on and the present queue randomly going to zero when it is off.

Edit 2: Setting my flush settings to Flush/Don't/Don't/Don't and disabling "use separated device for presentation" seems to solve my issue on 0.86.1.

Last edited by shimaflarex; 23rd February 2013 at 19:01.
shimaflarex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 18:14   #17691  |  Link
joe42
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimaflarex View Post
I do get more dropped frames with 0.86.1, smooth motion turned on, new exclusive mode.
I noticed that with 0.86.1 I get continuous dropped frames on the SmoothMotion50 test file (60Hz monitor), but no dropped frames on the other SmoothMotion files.

With 0.86.0 I did not get any dropped frames, not even with the 50Hz test file.

So something changed for the worse with 0.86.1
joe42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 18:26   #17692  |  Link
Q-the-STORM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by squall12 View Post
Hi madshi,

If i am using 23hz refresh rate at my samsung lcd tv with the tv smooth motion function mean i dont get any advantage using the madvr frc?

Thanks
the point of FRC is to remove judder... 23.976fps content on 23.976Hz refresh rate doesn't have judder... so FRC will essentially do nothing....

btw. thanks madshi... I usually use reclock to clock to 24fps and then set my VT50 to 24Hz... but the VT50 sometimes has a bit of flicker at 24Hz and I always hated the few seconds the panel needed to change the refesh rate... especially if I just want to open a video to check something... It got really annoying... now I simply leave it at 60Hz and turn on FRC...

Last edited by Q-the-STORM; 23rd February 2013 at 18:33.
Q-the-STORM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 19:55   #17693  |  Link
glc650
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugmen0t View Post
@glc650
ReClock is fully compatible with FRC.
The settings you suggest will turn off ReClock's audio clock corrections. Why would you want that? (The only benefit then over other audio renderers would be having WASAPI.)
I thought that's the desired setup when using FRC? Turn off ReClock's manipulation of the audio and just use ReClock for its audio clock? So what settings do I need then?
glc650 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 20:08   #17694  |  Link
oddball
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,263
Been testing a few things. 23.976fps with smooth motion forced on at 24Hz causes a ghosting effect kind of like interlacing. 23.976fps at 60Hz causes flickering. You can especially notice it on scrolling end credits. Looks like it's no good for me and I may as well stick with 24Hz smooth motion off for now.
oddball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 20:33   #17695  |  Link
dansrfe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,212
If I rapidly seek through the file with the right arrow button then madVR still freezes in exclusive mode but when it goes back to windowed mode it plays like normal. At that point if I try to fullscreen it back to exclusive mode I get a black screen and have to restart the file in order to use exclusive mode. This is with v0.86.1.
dansrfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 20:38   #17696  |  Link
iSunrise
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
If I rapidly seek through the file with the right arrow button then madVR still freezes in exclusive mode but when it goes back to windowed mode it plays like normal. At that point if I try to fullscreen it back to exclusive mode I get a black screen and have to restart the file in order to use exclusive mode. This is with v0.86.1.
Yes, I can confirm that. I was only able to trigger it with FRC on though, FRC off still seems to behave like 0.85.8. Sometimes if it happens, it looks like an endless loop of 2 frames that are shown at the same time (endless flickering).

Last edited by iSunrise; 23rd February 2013 at 20:50.
iSunrise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 20:43   #17697  |  Link
kasper93
MPC-HC Developer
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Poland
Posts: 556
I need to ask about one thing.
If I use reclock should I check "slave reference clock to audio"? Or leave it unchecked. For best compatibility with madVR.
kasper93 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 20:55   #17698  |  Link
Qaq
AV heretic
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q-the-STORM View Post
I usually use reclock to clock to 24fps and then set my VT50 to 24Hz... but the VT50 sometimes has a bit of flicker at 24Hz...
AFAIK, VT50 supports 96Hz.
Qaq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 21:18   #17699  |  Link
ikarad
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.86.0 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* added smooth motion frame rate conversion algorithm
* added settings page for smooth motion frc configuration
* added "trade quality for performance" option for smooth motion frc
* added test patterns to madTestPatternSource to test smooth motion frc
* fixed: RGB input with odd width/height is now accepted untouched
* fixed: IVideoWindow::put_Owner() failed when pins were not connected yet
* fixed: madHcCtrl.exe autostart registry entry was incorrect / not working
* fixed: occasional crash when using DXVA scaling with high-bitdepth content
* fixed: green line at the left image border when using DXVA scaling
* file "settings.bin" is not written into win7/8 "VirtualStore", anymore
* slightly improved multi monitor behaviour (when using DXVA or MPC-BE)
* filter enumeration timer is now only active during DVD playback
* extended logging for fullscreen exclusive presentation queue
* internal software video decoders are now disabled by default (again)
Introducing the new "smooth motion" frame rate changer (FRC) with the following main features / benefits:

(1) Can convert any source frame rate to any display refresh rate, while maintaining smooth motion.
(2) Endless playback without frame drops/repeats (if your PC is fast enough) without needing Reclock.

There are disadvantages, too, of course:

(1) Slightly higher GPU usage (not too much) with default settings.
(2) Some sharpness loss (almost invisible with 23-25fps -> 60Hz conversion).

23-25fps -> 60Hz: minimal sharpness loss, nearly invisible
24fps -> 24Hz: visible sharpness loss
60fps -> 24Hz: very noticeable sharpness loss

Basically the higher the refresh rate, the better. And the lower the source framerate, the better.

There's a new version of the madTestPatternSource filter available. It's now a separate download because it increased in file size quite a lot, due to the new test patterns for smooth motion.

Technically the FRC algorithm simulates a display with infinite refresh rate. Which means that every video frame is displayed exactly when the timestamps ask for it. Consequently the motion smoothness depends on proper timestamps. If the timestamps (or audio clock) contain jitter, the playback will contain jitter, too. So even if Reclock might not be needed to avoid frame drops/repeats, anymore, when using madVR's new FRC algorithm, you might still want to use Reclock, because it provides a stable and reliable audio clock with very low jitter, and it supports WSAPI exclusive mode, too. You can however slave Reclock to the audio hardware clock, if you want. Having Reclock fully enabled with audio resampling is still possible, though, it shouldn't harm madVR's FRC algorithm.

To my best knowledge madVR is now the only way to playback Blu-Ray/DVD movies without 3:2 pulldown judder on displays which don't support 23.976Hz playback properly. I don't think any hardware Blu-Ray player can do that, or even any of the expensive video processors. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

One last hint: There's a new "trade quality for performance" option in the madVR settings which affects the quality of the FRC frame blending. By default frame blending is done in gamma corrected light, which is fast, but not mathematically correct. If your GPU is fast enough, it's highly recommended that you disable the "trade quality" option for highest image quality. There are no negative side effects to blending frames in linear light - except for higher GPU usage, of course.

P.S: Just to avoid confusion: madVR's smooth motion FRC does *NOT* modify audio in any way. Playback speed is not affected at all. The only thing that changes is that motion looks much smoother, if the display refresh rate isn't an even multiple of the source framerate.
Thanks.

1) Have I need "smooth motion" frame rate changer (FRC) if I have 23.976fps movie with a 120hz display monitor?

What are the best options in smooth motion?

2) If I have reclock, is it still necessary with smooth motion to avoid frame drops/repeats?

3) what is the best option with 120hz and 23.976fps movie?
............. a) only if there would be motion judder without it
........... b) or if the display ..... the movie frame rate
.......... c) always


4) in trade quality for performance, I have "don't use linear light for smooth motion frame blending" turn on by default, Must I turn off or not? (I have 570)

5) If I use 3:2 inverse telecine filter like decomb, smooth motion is it compatible or not?

6) If I turn on smooth motion, in windows mode I have 48fps instead of 24 fps in movie (using fraps), is it normal? Smooth motion would double framerate? Why?

edit: I try and with movie, I have some glitch with smooth motion option.

Last edited by ikarad; 23rd February 2013 at 22:46.
ikarad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2013, 21:49   #17700  |  Link
rahzel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaq View Post
AFAIK, VT50 supports 96Hz.
It does. But I think he means that he switched his HTPC to 24Hz and had his VT50 set to 96Hz, but now he just uses 60Hz with FRC on. Even though my ST50 doesn't have a 96Hz option, it does accept 24p... I also used to switch to 24Hz, but now I just leave it at 60Hz with FRC on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oddball View Post
Been testing a few things. 23.976fps with smooth motion forced on at 24Hz causes a ghosting effect kind of like interlacing. 23.976fps at 60Hz causes flickering. You can especially notice it on scrolling end credits. Looks like it's no good for me and I may as well stick with 24Hz smooth motion off for now.
Outputting 24Hz with FRC on isn't the best setup for film... it's better to leave it at 60Hz. If your set can properly handle 24p (96Hz, 120Hz, 240Hz etc.,) it may be better to output 24Hz without FRC on. Outputting 60Hz from your PC and playing film with FRC on shouldn't cause any flickering vs having it off.

Last edited by rahzel; 23rd February 2013 at 21:53.
rahzel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 19:40.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.