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Old 13th May 2015, 15:07   #29841  |  Link
Werewolfy
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Ok, Jinc has less aliasing but is also softer than Catmull-Rom. At least we can see that there *is* a difference. However, there's zero difference I can see between enabling and disabling chroma quadrupling. Which may suggest that only the first chroma upsampling operation is important. For 4:2:0 that would be 4:2:0 -> 4:4:4 upsampling. After that, probably chroma doubling would show no visible differences.

So I'm somewhat torn now: With this PC game, chroma doubling helps, and also Jinc looks "different" to Catmull-Rom. So maybe I should put both chroma doubling and Jinc back in? But with a 4:2:0 source maybe there's no difference at all. However, "upscaling refinement" could result in sharpening the chroma channel so much that doubling after refinement might make a difference, once again. So maybe that's a good argument for putting it all back in? Opinions?
I think that if we have found a scenario where we can see the difference, there are possibly other scenarios. You should put back these options at least to judge if it's useful for upscaling refinement or anything else. To test your new version, it's better to have all the cards
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Old 13th May 2015, 15:08   #29842  |  Link
detmek
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Ok, I have a guess at what might be wrong. I'll create a test build for you or two to test my theory. I really wish I could reproduce it myself, but for some reason I can't...
Thanks madshi. I will test those builds when you post it.
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Old 13th May 2015, 15:12   #29843  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Ok, Jinc has less aliasing but is also softer than Catmull-Rom. At least we can see that there *is* a difference. However, there's zero difference I can see between enabling and disabling chroma quadrupling. Which may suggest that only the first chroma upsampling operation is important. For 4:2:0 that would be 4:2:0 -> 4:4:4 upsampling. After that, probably chroma doubling would show no visible differences.

So I'm somewhat torn now: With this PC game, chroma doubling helps, and also Jinc looks "different" to Catmull-Rom. So maybe I should put both chroma doubling and Jinc back in? But with a 4:2:0 source maybe there's no difference at all. However, "upscaling refinement" could result in sharpening the chroma channel so much that doubling after refinement might make a difference, once again. So maybe that's a good argument for putting it all back in? Opinions?
i would say let it as it is and wait for more UHD screen.
upscaling SD to UHD should make the picture very soft with a default scaler and things like chroma doubling may help there a lot.
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Old 13th May 2015, 15:21   #29844  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by Shiandow View Post
Not sure if it helps, but have you tried using SuperChromaRes for the extra chroma scaling? It should be quite good at making the chroma match the luma, and however many passes you need it's probably still going to be faster than NNEDI3. Of course there's not much point if the quality is worse, but I think it could work quite well.
You're right, that would be a good option. However, the problem is how to make all this configurable for the user in a good way. That's the hard part. I'll have to think about it.
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Old 13th May 2015, 15:37   #29845  |  Link
madshi
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So here are 2 test builds.

@detmek:
http://madshi.net/madVR885Haswell.zip
Please try them all and let me know which fix the problem, if any. Thanks.

@everyone with the D3D11 minimize / Aero Peak problem:
http://madshi.net/madVR885minimize.zip
Does this one fix the problem?
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Old 13th May 2015, 15:43   #29846  |  Link
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Yes, that fixes D3D11 minimize issues.

Suggestion: open the settings when double-clicking the tray icon.
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Last edited by clsid; 13th May 2015 at 15:46.
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Old 13th May 2015, 15:43   #29847  |  Link
Dogway
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
What is the difference between 60p screen mode and "1080 @ 60Hz PC mode"?
On a SmartTV "1080 @ 60Hz" (PC mode) is the screen mode you get when plugging your HTPC to the TV with HDMI interface and set the input as PC, this mode has some image/tv settings disabled and those that aren't are saved within this mode. "1080 24p" mode is the mode you get when you set 1080p24 in madvr, you have more TV image settings enabled and modifications are stored within this mode and (here comes the oddity) any other "p" mode, namely "1080 60p", "1080 50p", etc. What this means is that when I enable "LED Clear Motion" (a marketing word for black frame insertion) for "1080 24p" in order to deal with the implicit 24p motion blur issues, I will also get it for "1080 60p" mode which doesn't need it. That setting also dims screen a bit so I thought on playing non 24p content as "PC Mode", problem is I can't seem to do it once I write 1080p24 in madvr, it wants to turn my PC mode from where I'm launching my videos into some of the "p" modes.

I don't know if you have a smartTV so sorry if this sounds confusing to you.



PD: btw, on your chroma discussion IHMO you should use nnedi3 chroma where you use nnedi3 luma, otherwise you get horrible chroma mismatches on saturated borders.
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Old 13th May 2015, 15:53   #29848  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
At the moment when the frame drop occurs, are the queues near empty or are they still full right at that moment? In any case, a log file might clear this up. With smooth motion enabled, there really should not be any frame drops, as long as your GPU is fast enough.
They seem full for me: (7-8), then frame dropped, then (0-8), and in 1ms (7-8) again, until next dropped frame.

Here is a log. Hope it will help. I double click the file which opens the player, go into fullscreen, reset stats (Ctrl+R), let the problems occurs (for 1 minute i guess), then pause, exit fullscreen, closes player.
http://dl.free.fr/jHUVQcG4y
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Old 13th May 2015, 15:54   #29849  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by clsid View Post
Suggestion: open the settings when double-clicking the tray icon.
Funny, I was thinking exactly the same a couple of days ago...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogway View Post
On a SmartTV "1080 @ 60Hz" (PC mode) is the screen mode you get when plugging your HTPC to the TV with HDMI interface and set the input as PC, this mode has some image/tv settings disabled and those that aren't are saved within this mode. "1080 24p" mode is the mode you get when you set 1080p24 in madvr, you have more TV image settings enabled and modifications are stored within this mode and (here comes the oddity) any other "p" mode, namely "1080 60p", "1080 50p", etc. What this means is that when I enable "LED Clear Motion" (a marketing word for black frame insertion) for "1080 24p" in order to deal with the implicit 24p motion blur issues, I will also get it for "1080 60p" mode which doesn't need it. That setting also dims screen a bit so I thought on playing non 24p content as "PC Mode", problem is I can't seem to do it once I write 1080p24 in madvr, it wants to turn my PC mode from where I'm launching my videos into some of the "p" modes.
Ok, but PC modes vs. non-PC mode sounds like a setting in your TV, not on your HTPC. So why does your TV switch into non-PC mode if you let madVR switch to 1080p60? And how do *you* manually switch your HTPC into a mode which turns on PC mode on your TV? Are there two different 1080p60 modes on your HTPC, one for TV PC mode and one not? And madVR switches into the wrong 1080p60 mode? That's the part I don't understand. In theory you should get exactly what you want by adding both "1080p24" and "1080p60" into the madVR display mode edit box.
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Old 13th May 2015, 15:54   #29850  |  Link
James Freeman
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
So here are 2 test builds.

@everyone with the D3D11 minimize / Aero Peak problem:
http://madshi.net/madVR885minimize.zip
Does this one fix the problem?
YES it does!
Can we please try a 64 build?
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Last edited by James Freeman; 13th May 2015 at 16:02.
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Old 13th May 2015, 16:15   #29851  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
They seem full for me: (7-8), then frame dropped, then (0-8), and in 1ms (7-8) again, until next dropped frame.

Here is a log. Hope it will help. I double click the file which opens the player, go into fullscreen, reset stats (Ctrl+R), let the problems occurs (for 1 minute i guess), then pause, exit fullscreen, closes player.
http://dl.free.fr/jHUVQcG4y
Ok, I can see that every 5-10 seconds there's a "gap" in the log where nothing happens for about 100-150ms. Then suddenly everything works again, but those 100-150ms are enough to run the queues dry, which eventually results in a frame drop then.

Do you have any sort of application/service running in the background which might be using/blocking the GPU? Try closing any such application/service, and maybe also your browser. Does that help in any way?

Can you please create another log with this build:

http://madshi.net/madVRextendedLog.zip

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YES it does!
Can we please try a 64 build?
Later.
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Old 13th May 2015, 16:15   #29852  |  Link
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madshi, can you please add the possibility to change the current device's refresh rate from the tray icon menu? Sometimes it's better to watch PAL videos at native 25 Hz, for example SopCast translations, sometimes not. It's easy to change playing speed in ReClock but not the refresh rate with madVR. So sometimes I have to uncheck "treat 25p movies as 24p" setting in madVR and then relauch the player - just to get the refresh rate I need now.
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Old 13th May 2015, 16:23   #29853  |  Link
detmek
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So here are 2 test builds.

@detmek:
http://madshi.net/madVR885Haswell.zip
Please try them all and let me know which fix the problem, if any. Thanks.
Hi. I tried all four versions and none of those fixes a problem. I used MPC-BE x86 Nightly for test.

I don't know if I mentioned before but I don't have dropped or delayed frames or glitches. Its just render queue is not full and frames are presented out of order.

The thing is, problem almost desapires if I turn of smooth motion or turn on FSE. It flickers just a 1-2 seconds. With FSE render queue goes full. And that is even with regular build. Without FSE and with Smooth Motion on it flickers all the time.
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Last edited by detmek; 13th May 2015 at 16:52.
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Old 13th May 2015, 16:25   #29854  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
So I'm somewhat torn now: With this PC game, chroma doubling helps, and also Jinc looks "different" to Catmull-Rom. So maybe I should put both chroma doubling and Jinc back in? But with a 4:2:0 source maybe there's no difference at all. However, "upscaling refinement" could result in sharpening the chroma channel so much that doubling after refinement might make a difference, once again. So maybe that's a good argument for putting it all back in? Opinions?
It's a very synthetic example, but it showed that with all the new sharpening possibilities, it'd be definitely nice if one could completely rely on a scaling algorithm that introduces is little aliasing as possible, and this applies only to Jinc (and NNEDI3).

Chroma doubling/quadrupling could be made accessible again. But since they are only useful in such rather synthetic cases, they don't need to be present where luma doubling/quadrupling options are, which are much more important. I think your initial explanation about users getting confused by it is still true.
However, I think "novice" users are confused by image doubling options in general anyway, so this isn't necessarily a real argument.
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Old 13th May 2015, 16:46   #29855  |  Link
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Do you have any sort of application/service running in the background which might be using/blocking the GPU? Try closing any such application/service, and maybe also your browser. Does that help in any way?
Han ! You're strong. :/
Indeed, it was GPU-Z.
I guess you don't need another log now. Sorry, I feel bad for not thinking about another application interfering. :/

I don't have any dropped frames/glitches now.
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Old 13th May 2015, 16:52   #29856  |  Link
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So what's the current consensus about panels that are fed 10bit without dithering and give smooth output? Are they truly 10bit or something uknown in the pipeline dithers it? Or we just don't know?
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:01   #29857  |  Link
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So what's the current consensus about panels that are fed 10bit without dithering and give smooth output? Are they truly 10bit or something uknown in the pipeline dithers it? Or we just don't know?
the TV is most likely dithering in this case.

i pretty much made sure this is the case with my TV. either my TV is 10 bit and that not the case... or it is dithering the 10 bit input.

i know a way to dither the 10 bit input from madVR to 8 bit using the AMD driver but this is pretty much pointless a direct 16 bit to 8 bit dither is better.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:07   #29858  |  Link
James Freeman
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To add to what huhun said;
At 8bit+ it is impossible to see the dithering pattern so it's a guess game.
One thing is for sure, a single dithering stage at the end is always better than several along the way, but again, at 8+ bit depth it's a guess game.
It even can be that this whole discussion is pointless if no one can actually see anything...
If one does not know or 100% sure that the panel is true 10bit, it is better to stick to 8+dithering.

Others claim that FRC in displays actually looks smoother because it is not dependent on the video frame rate like madVR is.
8 or 10, always keep dithering ON in madVR.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 13th May 2015 at 17:14.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:11   #29859  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by GCRaistlin View Post
madshi, can you please add the possibility to change the current device's refresh rate from the tray icon menu? Sometimes it's better to watch PAL videos at native 25 Hz, for example SopCast translations, sometimes not. It's easy to change playing speed in ReClock but not the refresh rate with madVR. So sometimes I have to uncheck "treat 25p movies as 24p" setting in madVR and then relauch the player - just to get the refresh rate I need now.
I'm not sure how much sense that makes. I mean I could list the modes which are in the edit fields for display mode switching. But should I list more modes than that? I could enumerate all modes the GPU supports. But then you could also use the GPU control panel.

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Originally Posted by detmek View Post
Hi. I tried all four versions and none of those fixes a problem. I used MPC-BE x86 Nightly for test.

I don't know if I mentioned before but I don't have dropped or delayed frames or glitches. Its just render queue is not full and frames are presented out of order.

The thing is, problem almost desapires if I turn of smooth motion or turn on FSE. It flickers just a 1-2 seconds. With FSE render queue goes full. And that is even with regular build. Without FSE and with Smooth Motion on it flickers all the time.
Well, then I'm lost. Without being able to reproduce this, I don't know what to do about it. FWIW, I might get a Skylake laptop sooner or later, maybe I can reproduce it then.

One last thing you could test (just for information): Does the same problem occur when using the "use a separate device for presentation" with D3D9?

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Originally Posted by pirlouy View Post
Han ! You're strong. :/
Indeed, it was GPU-Z.
I guess you don't need another log now. Sorry, I feel bad for not thinking about another application interfering. :/

I don't have any dropped frames/glitches now.
No probs.
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Old 13th May 2015, 17:12   #29860  |  Link
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The TV (a 2014 "H generation" Samsung so pretty widespread) turns automatically to 1080p60 mode to, as I said, reenable settings needed for 60p sources, like recorded TV programs, files played from USB, or HFR blurays or whatever, let's call this "Playback mode". In "PC mode" many settings are disabled and others behave distinctly (ie. sharpness setting is disabled at value 50 instead of 0). There's a third last mode if I got it right, "TV mode" for cable TV, etc, these 3 modes store TV settings independently (not exactly three but for simplicity let's assume this).

I just bought the TV 2 weeks ago, the first thing that happened when I plugged the HDMI was that my desktop was extending offscreen. There's a (known I guess) trick and it is to rename (or label IIRC) the HDMI input as PC. Only then I got my 1080 desktop within the TV limits, that is desktop matching the TV internal resolution without scaling, this is "PC mode". 1080p60 (as 1080p24) sends a different signal to the TV, the above mentioned "Playback mode", I can take pictures if you want but I doubt they could come useful at all. It does the expected thing if you write 1080p60 and your source is 60fps, but I didn't expect my display changing to 24p mode for 60fps sources when I only had 1080p24 in the box, that's why I asked for a profile group option for displays so I can enforce a display mode policy on only 24p sources. The reason to play 60fps content in PC mode was to circumvent an issue where BFI option is shared on the TV side between both modes 24p and 60p, not being needed on the later.

If I simply play video files from the HTPC with the madvr display mode box empty everything is fine, so I guess if you don't know what signal to send for PC mode the best option should be a passthrough.


edit: btw for some reason the statistics doesn't show chroma being upscaled with nnedi3, I have it set the same as luma (if > x2). It is instead using the upscaling settings in "upscale chroma", interestingly enough there's another NNEDI3 scaling option just below Jinc.

Last edited by Dogway; 13th May 2015 at 17:18.
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