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Old 25th December 2013, 15:31   #1  |  Link
Chetwood
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How to identify, rip and flag forced subs from BD

Although MKV is my container of choice when it comes to backing up my BDs, including forced subs can be tricky sometimes. That's not only because of the way flags are done in MKVs (see here, here and here) which also can be ignored by standalones but because identifying and ripping can be difficult due to the various ways forced subs can be authored on BDs:
  1. a general track that has several items which are flagged as forced (e.g. Avatar)

  2. a separate track that only has forced subs which are flagged as forced (e.g. Olympus Has Fallen)

  3. a separate track that has only forced subs none of which are flagged as forced (e.g. Kill Bill Vol. 1)

  4. a general track where some items are flagged as forced by navigational commands (e.g. Van Helsing)

  5. ?
To make sure none of the flagged items which might be anywhere inside a stream are missed, the entire movie has to be parsed. Still, in some cases this is not enough as the forced subs are turned on by navigational commands (from the index.bdmv?) which most ripping tools seem to ignore.

Is there any tool/way to identify 100% of forced subs?
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Last edited by Chetwood; 19th January 2014 at 07:37. Reason: Replacing with movies that should have forced subs in all regions
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Old 25th December 2013, 17:40   #2  |  Link
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I consider myself somewhat of an expert on forced subs on BD, but I didn't find any on Van Helsing or Now You See Me. You have me concerned since I haven't watched those rips yet. I will have to dig up the discs and take another look.

Bottom line, no, there is no automated way to do forced subs correctly 100% of the time.
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Old 26th December 2013, 10:26   #3  |  Link
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Yeah, that's probably because I'm playing back region 2 BDs with German subs where often signs are translated which isn't necessary on their English counterparts. Seems I gotta look out for BDs that also have forced English subs translating Spanish or something. Apparently Elysium is such a candidate.

And why do you think 100% are impossible? I mean, if "only" the info.bdmv has to be checked for commands that turn on subs, rippers should be able to parse this file like media players do when they switch on subs according to what has been selected in the menu?
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Old 26th December 2013, 14:37   #4  |  Link
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I might be wrong but it seems to me that if you demux your BDs with eac3to it will say "contains xx forced subs" in its log. Of course, you would have to have made sure to demux all the subtitle tracks for your preferred language for eac3to to find them.

I have overlooked this log a couple of times and had to go-back and redo some discs e.g. Taken and Vantage Point come to mind.

I don't think "classic" tsMuxeR IDs forced subs but maybe the new version does?

Of course, IDENTIFYING that they are there is the first step, next you have all those other issues you mentioned to deal with.
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Old 26th December 2013, 15:39   #5  |  Link
nevcairiel
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While you might be able to come up with a heuristic to parse the HDMV menus to figure out if one of the streams is being turned on automatically - trying to do the same for BD-J discs is practically impossible, well, short of de-compiling the Java code.

On many discs its luckily pretty easy to check manually, based on the number of tracks and/or a quick look at the video. If you already demuxed the tracks entirely, its even easier by just opening the pgs track in a PGS editor, for example (although i don't demux them, since i prefer using MakeMKV)
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Old 26th December 2013, 17:21   #6  |  Link
ScottJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chetwood View Post
And why do you think 100% are impossible? I mean, if "only" the info.bdmv has to be checked for commands that turn on subs, rippers should be able to parse this file like media players do when they switch on subs according to what has been selected in the menu?
Because how does the ripping software know what you will select from the menu?

It's conceivable that someone could develop a ripping process that interacts with TMT or other BD playback software. You would load up the disc and start the movie, then hit the Rip button and it would rip whatever video+audio+subtitle was currently playing.

But no such flow exists today, and I doubt it ever will, because (1) that seems like an even bigger PITA than looking through every sub track by hand; and (2) what if I want to rip a full sub track as a viewer option? How would I tell such a ripper about that?

Thanks for clarifying about the German BDs. I will sleep better tonight
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Old 26th December 2013, 17:25   #7  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laserfan View Post
I might be wrong but it seems to me that if you demux your BDs with eac3to it will say "contains xx forced subs" in its log. Of course, you would have to have made sure to demux all the subtitle tracks for your preferred language for eac3to to find them.
Of the 4 types of forced subs that Chetwood described above, this would find types 1 & 2 but not 3 or 4 (though I'm not sure what #4 is about, I don't think I've ever seen such a disc).
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Old 26th December 2013, 19:28   #8  |  Link
laserfan
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Originally Posted by ScottJ View Post
Of the 4 types of forced subs that Chetwood described above, this would find types 1 & 2 but not 3 or 4 (though I'm not sure what #4 is about, I don't think I've ever seen such a disc).
You're right of course. I've seen 3 before but dunno #4 at all.
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Old 27th December 2013, 17:22   #9  |  Link
Chetwood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottJ View Post
(though I'm not sure what #4 is about, I don't think I've ever seen such a disc).
I know it sounds weird but IMO there's no better way to explain this behaviour.

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Because how does the ripping software know what you will select from the menu?
I know what you mean but I wasn't expecting something as elaborate as PGCEdit's trace function. I was rather thinking of something similar to the BOV detection routine in DVDFab. Maybe something like this would work on regular buttons as well. When you select PLAY on the German version of Olympus Has Fallen, it will automatically turn on the track with the forced subs that translate the Korean conversations. Maybe this could be read by a ripper from the index.bdmv as well.
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Old 28th December 2013, 14:43   #10  |  Link
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Quote:
I know it sounds weird but IMO there's no better way to explain this behaviour.
It is just a separate track
In case of Van Helsing (german) it is subtitle stream 35 (00145.m2ts). Text subs are always muxed separately.


Quote:
Maybe this could be read by a ripper from the index.bdmv as well.
HDMV navigational commands resides in MovieObject.bdmv but Van Helsing commands are BDJO.
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Old 29th December 2013, 10:33   #11  |  Link
pistacho
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Hi!

I'm not read all posted. But maybe this software can help. Can detects almost 99% all types of forced subtitles and does not requires demux. Is an automated process based on scanning bitrrates on the fly (and some heuristics).

Main window -> Open BD folder -> Scan Bitrates



DOWNLOAD => http://www.videohelp.com/tools/BDtoAVCHD

Last edited by pistacho; 29th December 2013 at 10:43.
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Old 29th December 2013, 12:05   #12  |  Link
nevcairiel
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It still reads the entire disc, so while thats not a demux, it still takes about the same time.
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Old 29th December 2013, 12:40   #13  |  Link
pistacho
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
it still takes about the same time.
This is not exactly true because a demuxer needs process and write output and this is optimized for only read minimal needed information and write none.

In my actual system this is done in less of 60 sec. (at 604MB/s) besides is not need complete entire scan (once forced subs of interest language are detected). Note screenshot: at less of 30% forced tracks in spanish are detected and usually there are no other type of forced subs in same BD -> Can break scan now


Last edited by pistacho; 29th December 2013 at 12:58. Reason: typos
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Old 29th December 2013, 13:13   #14  |  Link
mbcd
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Yes, for me too, I`ve seen 1,2,3

But 4 might be very unusual. I dont think that there is a proper way to get this out. Every demuxer available should not parse navigational commands and "syncronize" each subtitle to "force" or "not Force".

In case of demuxing you will get a normal, complete "unforced" file. That is also true for case 3.

You cant identify them exactly, unless they are flagged internaly.

Otherwise you have to parse the whole structure to get forcing commands out.
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Old 29th December 2013, 13:56   #15  |  Link
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@pistacho
Your soft cant detect those so called #4 subs
You have to scan appropriate mpls for BD text subs as they are muxed in separately m2ts.
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Old 29th December 2013, 18:50   #16  |  Link
pistacho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigotti5 View Post
Your soft cant detect those so called #4 subs
I agree you, can't detect type #4 but never I needed because never I see this type on a comercial Blu-Ray (Spanish release)

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Originally Posted by bigotti5 View Post
You have to scan appropriate mpls for BD text subs as they are muxed in separately m2ts.
Not sure understand what you say but my soft only utilizes graphic subs (PGS) for Blu-Ray source (better render quality and preserves font size, type, color, etc.)

Sorry, I see that my software doesn't solve any of us problems...

Last edited by pistacho; 29th December 2013 at 18:56.
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Old 16th April 2014, 22:41   #17  |  Link
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How to rip Escape Plan (2013) Forced Subtitles?

After having remuxed BD release of Escape Plan into an mkv file I saw there were forced subtitles. I could somehow extract them from the mkv container using eac3to, mux them into ts and m2ts using tsMuxer, watch them with MPC-HC and Daum PotPlayer, demux them back, but I couldn't rip them using BDsup2sup or Subtitle Edit.
So, my question is:
How could I rip the forced subtitles from Escape Plan (2013) Blu-ray release?
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Old 16th April 2014, 22:58   #18  |  Link
ScottJ
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Originally Posted by SpasV View Post
How could I rip the forced subtitles from Escape Plan (2013) Blu-ray release?
Are you sure they aren't burned into the video? The US BD has no forced sub track.
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Old 17th April 2014, 08:55   #19  |  Link
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Are you sure they aren't burned into the video? The US BD has no forced sub track.
Yes, I'm sure.
These subtitles are displayed when Rottmayer (Arnold Schwarzenegger) speaks German in the Box (around 00:51:30 - 00:52:25). So, they should be and they are in the BD release.
I think I have the US BD release because of this:
>eac3to:
M2TS, 1 video track, 5 audio tracks, 3 subtitle tracks, 1:55:35, 24p /1.001
1: Chapters, 16 chapters
2: h264/AVC, 1080p24 /1.001 (16:9)
3: DTS Master Audio, English, 7.1 channels, 24 bits, 48kHz
(core: DTS, 5.1 channels, 24 bits, 1509kbps, 48kHz)
4: AC3 Surround, English, 2.0 channels, 224kbps, 48kHz
5: AC3 Surround, English, 2.0 channels, 224kbps, 48kHz
6: AC3, Spanish, 5.1 channels, 448kbps, 48kHz
7: AC3 Surround, English, 2.0 channels, 224kbps, 48kHz
8: Subtitle (PGS), English
9: Subtitle (PGS), English
10: Subtitle (PGS), Spanish

The problem is they are not shown by SupRip nor by Subtitle Edit nor by BDsup2sub if subtitle stream is extracted from the Blu-ray stream (.m2ts files).
Actually, I want to translate them and of course to have a perfect timing. When I saw the forced subtitles I tried to extract them the usual way and I couldn't. Then I checked if they were muxed in the video stream (.h264 file). They weren't there. They weren't in the audio stream because I have reencoded the TrueHD stream to FLAC and more over I didn't include the audio stream when I tried to find where the forced subtitles were.
So, I could extract a .sup file using eac3to from an mkv remux I have built from BD video and subtitle streams. (I have worked with the streams described in 00610.mpls.) This file has a size of 6.15 MB while the .sup extracted from the 00619.mpls stream is of size 20.7 MB.

I can mux the 6.15 MB .sup file along with the .h264 video stream in a .ts file and watch the forced subtitles playing the movie. tsMuxeR can extract the forced subtitles from my .ts file reducing the size to 4.15 MB.
Neither software I tried can rip the 6.15 MB file.
BDsup2sub says ERROR Index 0 out of bounds, Subtitle edit does nothing, and tsMuxeR shows Resolution: 7828:55522 when working with it.

So, my question stays:
How to extract the forced subtitles from Escape Plan Blu-ray release?
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Old 17th April 2014, 12:31   #20  |  Link
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but I couldn't rip them using BDsup2sup or Subtitle Edit.
I don't get it. If you extract them from the m2ts with TSmuxer, you'll end up with PGS files that can be openend in BDSUP2SUB where you can also see if they are flagged as forced. Having 2 English subs suggests, you have on regular sub and one with forced subs only though those may not be flagged. That's how the German BD is authored at least.
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