How to burn subtitles to a dvd?

[lowlyfme]

I am new to subtitles and just recently started using a combination of two different subtitle programs. My computer runs off of Windows 7. I use Aegisub and the Subtitle Workshop. I use the Subtitle workshop since it displays the video in real time, making it easier to time the subtitles, and then transfer the saved subtitles to Aegisub and do my final alterations there since it lets me place subtitles in more positions and such. But I still don't know what I need to do to burn these subtitles along with the video onto a DVD. What all do I need to do? My videos are in MP4 format, but I can convert them if necessary. What steps will I need to take? What softwares will I need to successfully hardsub the subtitles to the video? What is this 'encoding' I am hearing about with subtitles? I want to have subtitles in the videos I burn, and make it so that the dvd can be read on your everyday DVD player. I am new to all of this, but any help or feedback would be great. SInce I'm not exactly computer efficient, step-by-step instructions would be great, but I'll accept any help you can give me...

[fvisagie]

Subtitles are converted to images (BMP, SUP etc. depending on the DVD authoring program), video is encoded to DVD-compliant MPEG2 format and then the authoring program writes the content to the disc. This can be done with discrete programs for each step, although newcomers might prefer the simplicity of all-in-one solutions. Videohelp.com has extensive lists of such tools, along with user reviews.

Unless you are absolutely committed to outputing in DVD format, you could also overlay the text subtitles directly onto your MP4 videos without any further conversion, and distribute the MP4 videos and subtitles as such. Some players like Media Player Classic-based ones provide built-in support for selectable subtitles. If your target machines won't all have such players, look at external subtitle renderers like the VSFilter-based ones.

By the way, Aegisub has served my subtitle timing needs well; perhaps you are (or I am ) overlooking something.

[lowlyfme]

What do you mean by the DVD authoring program? The program that allows me to burn it to DVD? I have DVDvideosoft, but I don't know if that will work to burn dvd's with subtitles. Basically if I'm understanding correctly, based off of whatever DVD authoring program I have (or whatever dvd authoring program I will have), I have to convert the subtitle image to a format that that program can work with and read, correct? So I'll need to find software that can convert my mp4 or mkv files to MPEG2, correct? Along with a software that can convert whatever format into the format which is compatible with the DVD authoring program. I actually have the files in their original form as well, which is mkv format if that will make it any easier. SO, I will need a DVD authoring program, and two format converters(unless I find one that covers multiple). Is there anything else? After I've converted those formats, is there anything else I'll need to have or do to hardsub then burn the DVDs?

[fvisagie]

The all-in-one solutions do everything (converting video to MPEG2, subtitles to images and authoring) from within one program. They may lack flexibility and/or take some shortcuts which may result in preventable loss of quality compared to using discrete solutions for each step, but are usually easier to get going with.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the capabilities of DVDvideosoft to tell in which category it falls.

[trumpet205]

You could use Handbrake to hardsub .ass subtitle. This will make it a permanent subtitle (can't turn off), as subtitle becomes part of the video rather than independent tracks.

What I probably would do is using Handbrake with CRF 0 to hardsub, then use your DVD authoring software to export it into DVD compliant format.

[lowlyfme]

Ok. Thank you guys so much for your help! I'm new to all of this and was so lost haha. I will try Handbrake first and see how it works for me. That's exactly what I wanted was to have the subtitles become a part of the actual disk. But just in case that doesn't work...What programs would you recommend to do these things: 1) convert .ass files to images, 2) convert MP4 or MKV files to MPEG-2 3) burn DVD's with hardsubbed subtitles or burn DVD's with subtitle 'images' and MPEG-2 files?

[TheSkiller]

Originally Posted by lowlyfme

That's exactly what I wanted was to have the subtitles become a part of the actual disk.

They become part of the disc either way. The difference between "hard" and "soft" subtitles is whether the subtitles are part of the video like the rest of the video is (that would be hard subtitles) or if they are stored separately so that they can be overlaid optionally during playback if needed (called soft subtitles). Since hard subtitles are part of the encoded video they cannot be switched off and have to be overlaid before encoding the video.

Originally Posted by lowlyfme

1) convert .ass files to images,

avs2bdnxml which will spit out PNG images + BDN XML script. Then you may use BDSup2Sub to convert that to the final format needed for your authoring program (like SUP or IDX+SUB).

Originally Posted by lowlyfme

2) convert MP4 or MKV files to MPEG-2

I'm not too familiar with all-in-one softwares but Handbrake could be your candidat here.

Originally Posted by lowlyfme

3) burn DVD's with hardsubbed subtitles

Nothing beats ImgBurn (free) for burning (note that burning really is just that - burning, authoring takes place prior to that).

[fvisagie]

Originally Posted by lowlyfme

What programs would you recommend to do these things: 1) convert .ass files to images, 2) convert MP4 or MKV files to MPEG-2 3) burn DVD's with hardsubbed subtitles or burn DVD's with subtitle 'images' and MPEG-2 files?

What I use - as opposed to necessarily recommend - are 1) MaestroSBT, 2) ffmpeg, 3) GUI for dvdauthor, the latter set to author with muxman.

I lost some years of my life getting to grips with these and getting them to work together properly. Potentially this toolchain is therefore only of illustrative value to you, in which case you may still look for potentially simpler alternatives to work with, or look for a simpler all-in-one tool at this point.

[TheSkiller]

Originally Posted by fvisagie

1) MaestroSBT

MaestroSBT is fine, however it does not keep the *.ass font stylings.

Imho avs2bdnxml + BDSup2Sub is the way to go to faithfully convert *.ass subtitles to a DVD format without changing their look and formatting.

[fvisagie]

Indeed. However, because I don't use ASS-specific style elements, it doesn't matter in my case.

[manono]

Originally Posted by TheSkiller

MaestroSBT is fine, however it does not keep the *.ass font stylings.

Maybe he doesn't need the full range of ASS's abilities:

Originally Posted by lowlyfme

...and then transfer the saved subtitles to Aegisub and do my final alterations there since it lets me place subtitles in more positions and such.

If what he wants is positioning, won't MaestroSBT do it? For my own subs I use SSA and sometimes use things like italics and non-standard positioning and they get handled okay. Yes, for different fonts and colors within the same subs, the DVD specs don't allow for much variety anyway. I could be wrong as I don't use much variety in my subs, but if SSA can do it so can MaestroSBT for the most part (too much color and font variety excepted).

[lowlyfme]

So I re-encoded my MKV files to MPEG-2 format, but it appears Subtitle Workshop and Aegisub cannot work with that format due to lack of keyframes. I'm afraid if I were to use the original MKV files to start making the subtitles, the timing will be off after re-encoding the MKV videos to MPEG-2. Is there anything I can do to make it so the MPEG-2 files work with these programs? According to reviews, DVDlab can re-encode the MPEG-2 files so that they have the needed amount of keyframes. Argh, this is all becoming such a headache! But your guys' help is keeping me from going insane! Maybe I'm just doing everything in the wrong order...idk. So, should I use the MKV files while making the subtitles, then once finished making subtitles, hardsub the .ass files to the MPEG-2 version? Or could that affect the timing of the video, also mismatching the subtitle's timing?

[fvisagie]

Originally Posted by lowlyfme

So I re-encoded my MKV files to MPEG-2 format, but it appears Subtitle Workshop and Aegisub cannot work with that format due to lack of keyframes.

My somewhat non-current version of Aegisub supports MPEG-2 very nicely and I cannot imagine that the current version won't. In View.Options.Video.Video provider ffmpegsource works best. There will probably be a more recent version of ffms2.dll on its discussion thread in this forum than the one shipped with your Aegisub.

I'm afraid if I were to use the original MKV files to start making the subtitles, the timing will be off after re-encoding the MKV videos to MPEG-2.

What makes you believe that? One of the chief design goals of modern encoders and multiplexers is to preserve timing. Given that everything is set up and used correctly, you certainly shouldn't expect timing differences after encoding to MPEG-2.

Is there anything I can do to make it so the MPEG-2 files work with these programs?

As for first point above.

So, should I use the MKV files while making the subtitles, then once finished making subtitles, hardsub the .ass files to the MPEG-2 version? Or could that affect the timing of the video, also mismatching the subtitle's timing?

As mentioned, MPEG-2 conversion done correctly won't affect timing. Therefore, it is a matter of preference whether you want to use your source MKVs or converted MPEG-2s as reference for subtitle work.

Many people argue that soft-subtitling is more future-proof, and it certainly is generally more user-friendly - those who want them and those who don't can both have their requirements addressed. Hard subtitles, on the other hand, can never be removed.

If you really want hard subtitles, there are some options to consider. You could add them during the conversion to MPEG-2 (inputting via a text subtitle filter), or you could add them as forced DVD subtitles during the DVD authoring process. The advantages of the first over the second are a more widely-understood process and greater subtitle quality, while the advantage of the second over the first is that subtitles are already stored in DVD format separately from your video (but forcibly displayed during playback), so that you could conceivably turn them into soft subtitles later simply by re-authoring your DVD.

PS.

So I re-encoded my MKV files to MPEG-2 format

Do make sure your encodes are DVD-compliant. DVD video uses a subset of MPEG-2 capabilities. Hopefully your MPEG-2 encoder makes provision for DVD-compliant encoding, but if not, here are some links to help explain the background.
http://www.videohelp.com/dvd#tech
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-Video
http://dvd.sourceforge.net/dvdinfo/dvdmpeg.html

I attach a user-friendly batch script interface to a high-quality DVD-compliant ffmpeg command line just in case. Should anyone wonder why I don't use the built-in PAL-DVD and/or NTSC-DVD format specifiers , the reason is that ffmpeg has a bug which forcibly resizes input files with a width of 704 pixels (which is DVD-compliant) to 720 pixels, damaging aspect ratio and causing quality loss with the (unnecessary) additional resizing.

The script caters for adding hard-coded subtitles from ASS source. To use that feature you need Avisynth with the TextSub() filter. When adding subtitles, the script assumes AVI video input to Avisynth with the line

echo OpenDMLSource(%INPUT%)>%AVSCRIPT%

For other file formats you'll need to specify the appropriate Avisynth media file filter.

If your source material is (or was originally) in HD format, encoding to DVD-compliant format implies conversion to SD (downscaling, in other words). In that case I suggest you also add BT.709-to-BT.601 colour coefficient conversion to prevent colour information shifts. Usually they are subtle, but once you know about them they become hard to ignore! There are various ways to do this. One such in Avisynth is specifying the 'matrix=PC.601' parameter with filters like the ConvertToXYZ() colourspace converters, but the best tool and method will be determined by your workflow.

[lowlyfme]

Originally Posted by fvisagie

By the way, Aegisub has served my subtitle timing needs well; perhaps you are (or I am ) overlooking something.

I don't know why, but Subtitle Workshop plays the video much smoother than Aegisub. Aegisub seems to skip over seconds so it's more like watching consecutive clips rather than the video in it's regular stream.

Originally Posted by trumpet205

You could use Handbrake to hardsub .ass subtitle.

How do I do that? I did install Handbrake, but when I'd try and load the subtitle file, it only had the option to load an .srt file...

Originally Posted by trumpet205

What I probably would do is using Handbrake with CRF 0 to hardsub, then use your DVD authoring software to export it into DVD compliant format.

Is CRF 0 a setting/preference? Or a software? Computers are a foreign language to me haha.

Originally Posted by fvisagie

What I use - as opposed to necessarily recommend - are 1) MaestroSBT, 2) ffmpeg, 3) GUI for dvdauthor, the latter set to author with muxman.

Are GUI and muxman softwares?

Originally Posted by TheSkiller

MaestroSBT is fine, however it does not keep the *.ass font stylings.

All I really need is for the font to be white with black borders. That and italics in certain parts. I could care less about the actual font though. I can just stick with the basic Arial font. Oh, and I need the subtitles about a quarter- to a half- inch higher than the usual subtitle location (whichs is usually to the bottom center).

Originally Posted by fvisagie

My somewhat non-current version of Aegisub supports MPEG-2 very nicely and I cannot imagine that the current version won't.

When I try to load the MPEG-2 file with Aegisub, it gives me the following error...
YUV4MPEG:video is not in a supported format.
FFmpegsource: video is not in a supported format.
Avisynth: Avisynth errorirectshowsource: timout waiting for graph to start.

When I try to load it in Subtitle Workshop, there is audio, but no visual.

I have a hunch it has something to do with the original video's format. But I wouldn't know the first thing about videos. Is there any software that can scan the file and tell me all the information about that file? Such as the codecs, filters...you name it? If I could do that and send the results, maybe you would be able to see what the problem is. Maybe it has something to do with the original video or the MPEG-2 converted file.

Originally Posted by fvisagie

In View.Options.Video.Video provider ffmpegsource works best.

I have it set to ffmpegsource, so that's good.

Originally Posted by fvisagie

Given that everything is set up and used correctly, you certainly shouldn't expect timing differences after encoding to MPEG-2.

I think for now I'll stick to using the MKV file to base the subtitles off of, since I still don't know what the problem is with my MPEG-2 files and why they aren't cooperating. Since the conversion shouldn't interfere with the sub timings, I guess it doesn't matter which video format I use.

Originally Posted by fvisagie

If you really want hard subtitles, there are some options to consider. You could add them during the conversion to MPEG-2 (inputting via a text subtitle filter), or you could add them as forced DVD subtitles during the DVD authoring process. The advantages of the first over the second are a more widely-understood process and greater subtitle quality, while the advantage of the second over the first is that subtitles are already stored in DVD format separately from your video (but forcibly displayed during playback), so that you could conceivably turn them into soft subtitles later simply by re-authoring your DVD.

I just want the subtitles to be permanently placed onto the DVD. I'll be double if not triple-checking the spelling and such before doing the final authoring and burning. I shouldn't be needing to access the subtitles later for anything, so I shouldn't be needing to turn them to softsubs later.

Originally Posted by fvisagie

Do make sure your encodes are DVD-compliant. DVD video uses a subset of MPEG-2 capabilities. Hopefully your MPEG-2 encoder makes provision for DVD-compliant encoding, but if not, here are some links to help explain the background.

I'm starting to worry that the MPEG-2 converted files aren't DVD compliant. How would I know though? Is there a software that can scan the file and tell me the codecs, filters applied, subtitles, etc.?

[manono]

Originally Posted by lowlyfme

All I really need is for the font to be white with black borders. That and italics in certain parts. I could care less about the actual font though. I can just stick with the basic Arial font. Oh, and I need the subtitles about a quarter- to a half- inch higher than the usual subtitle location (whichs is usually to the bottom center).

Me, I'd never hardcode subs into a DVD when it's just as easy to make them selectable. Encoding subs requires higher bitrate for the same quality. The reason is subs are static while there may be movement all around. This makes it much harder on the encoder. Hardcoded subs almost always wind up with mosquito noise all around them.

Anyway, it's a simple matter to adjust the height of subs after the fact using DVDSubEdit. It's a simple matter to adjust the colors using either DVDSubEdit or PGCEdit after the fact. I don't know how to get italics into some lines of subs other than creating SSA subs for use in MaestroSBT. Maybe some all-in-one DVD encoding/menu creation/authoring program such as AVSToDVD accept SSA (or ASS) subs as input. I don't know as I don't use them.

I'm starting to worry that the MPEG-2 converted files aren't DVD compliant. How would I know though?

You could load the M2V into Muxman. If it's rejected immediately it's not compliant. You won't know if the bitrates are complaint until you actually author it. In addition, this might help:

http://www.videohelp.com/dvd

[lowlyfme]

Originally Posted by manono

Me, I'd never hardcode subs into a DVD when it's just as easy to make them selectable.

If softsubbing's as easy as hardsubbing, I can do that as well. Whichever is easier. Can Handbrake do softsubs? If not, what can?

Originally Posted by manono

You could load the M2V into Muxman. If it's rejected immediately it's not compliant. You won't know if the bitrates are complaint until you actually author it. In addition, this might help:

http://www.videohelp.com/dvd

I will try loading the video in Muxman and see what happens. I'll take a look at that website as well. Thanks!

[lowlyfme]

Muxman didn't say any error messages when I loaded the MPEG-2 file, but when browsing to find the videos, it didn't show up under "useable files". It didn't show until I told windows to search through "all videos". Don't know if that means anything, but it could...

[manono]

Originally Posted by lowlyfme

Can Handbrake do softsubs?

I thought you were making a DVD. If so, why is Handbrake even being mentioned? It has nothing to do with DVDs.

[Asmodian]

Originally Posted by manono

I thought you were making a DVD. If so, why is Handbrake even being mentioned? It has nothing to do with DVDs.

It was mentioned as an easy way to create a lossless intermediate H.264 video (--crf 0) with the subtitles burned in. As soon as softsubs are desired Handbrake will not help for DVD creation.

I agree soft subs are much to be preferred unless you want a lot of features from ass to show up the same on a DVD player. Such complex subs will have mosquito noise around them.

[lowlyfme]

I've gotten so many recommendations that I don't know which ones will work or which ones won't anymore haha. Sounds like softsubbing might be easier. If I were to send a copy of the GSpot report, do you think you could give me advice based off of that? I could send info regarding the original MKV file? I think softsubbing will be the way to go instead of hardsubbing. Maybe there's something wrong with the MKV file that makes it difficult to convert to the necessary MPEG-2 format that I don't know about. My head's spinning and since I don't know what kind of file I'd be working with, I don't know if the recommendations would be of any help to me...If Gspot would help at all let me know...