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2nd July 2003, 22:18 | #201 | Link |
Author of D2SRoBa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 483
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The original Robshot pages are nowhere to be found. Fortunately, the doom9 DVD encoding guides includes the essense of these long gone pages.
However, the basis for the D2SRoBa plugin is here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41033 The above thread refers to two methods: - 2passRoBa: This is the original RoBa method. The D2SRoBa plugin uses these ideas only for estimating automatically the number of CDs needed, given a Worst Q. - 1passBach: This is the OPV Bach algorithm for estimation of optimal Q (with binary search) for filling the last CD. D2SRoBa uses this algorithm. (EDIT) I have uploaded D2SRoBa v2.4.1 News: - Added num GOPs in the '1-pass VBR RoBa' group: possible to make longer 'scenes' (more realistic) in sample mpv's created. - Speedy startup - Fixes small quirks - More debug info - (EDIT) Added batch support for the GOPs value (v2.4.1) @Byteshark: This is clearly a configuration specific error. Please post or PM me logs with the new (upcoming) version. Last edited by tylo; 3rd July 2003 at 14:42. |
3rd July 2003, 00:37 | #202 | Link | |
Graphite mod
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Away
Posts: 2,022
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Quote:
The error in prediction I was getting (measured as unused space on the last CD) without this feature was 2%-4%. (With default tweak 0.8, no gambling ) I just used GOPs=6 (about 3 secs.) and precision improved 1% without additional test time. Keep it up!
__________________
MPEG4 quality with MPEG2? - Try the Poor Man's DVD. FACAR - As seen on TV! - The Complete Idiot's Guide to a good DVD Conversion. Time is money. Try D2Sroba for DVD2SVCD (FAQ) and save both. All electricity bills supported! Do you know how much overscan and which resolution your TV has? Find out if NTSC. Moderator: 1: one who arbitrates 2: one who presides over an assembly, meeting, or discussion 3: a substance (as graphite) used for slowing down neutrons in a nuclear reactor (Webster) |
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3rd July 2003, 21:40 | #203 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 9
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2.4.1 log
Useing D2SRoBa v2.4.1 - is this enough debug info? As you can see it chose a Q of 1.
======================================================== D2Sroba - DVD2SVCD with Robshot/Bach's method, by tylo -------------------------------------------------------- - DVD2SVCD Shutdown - 2003-07-03 07:32:45 -------------------------------------------------------- - Movie length : 01:21:29 (122247 frames) - Audio size (mp2) : 78224000. bytes -------------------------------------------------------- Calculations: - Est. CD user data : (800 - 5) * 1024 * 1024 - 380000 - Est. target mpv sz : (833237920. * 2) / 1.0235 - (78224000. + 0) -------------------------------------------------------- Results: - Est. CD user data : 833237920. - Use number of CDs : 2 - Est. target mpv sz : 1549988839. (2535 kbps) -------------------------------------------------------- Find Q for mpv file: - Estimated mpv size : 904919993. (Q=32 / 1480 kbps) - Estimated mpv size : 1401775600. (Q=16 / 2293 kbps) - Estimated mpv size : 1512040094. (Q=8 / 2473 kbps) - Estimated mpv size : 1516169993. (Q=4 / 2480 kbps) - Estimated mpv size : 1516684780. (Q=2 / 2481 kbps) - Estimated mpv size : 1517918150. (Q=1 / 2483 kbps) -------------------------------------------------------- - Q = (1 + 1.0 - #Infinity somewhere! - 1.3) = #Syntax error! - Selected Q factor : Q=0 -------------------------------------------------------- - DVD2SVCD Recover - 2003-07-03 07:43:12 -------------------------------------------------------- Replacing values in ecl file: - opv_q_factor : 32 ==> 0 - opv_brate_max : 2230 ==> 2530 - vbr_brate_avg : 6000 ==> 2535 -------------------------------------------------------- - Actual mpv file size: 03/07/2003 07:44 AM 31457280 Encoded_Video_CCE_PAL.mpv -------------------------------------------------------- ======================================================== D2SRoBa v2.4.1 - DVD2SVCD plugin, by tylo OS Version: WIN_XP -------------------------------------------------------- - DVD2SVCD Shutdown - 2003-07-04 06:13:33 -------------------------------------------------------- Settings: - CD size : 800 - Number of CD's : auto - Worst Q. factor : 40 + One pass VBR Robshot/Bach : 1 - Sample percentage : 2.0 - Sample GOPs : 1 - Adjust Q. : 0.8 + Do credits bitrate tweak : 0 - Start time : 0:00:00 - Bitrate : 1000 -------------------------------------------------------- - Movie length : 01:21:29 (122247 frames, 25 fps) - Audio size est : 78238080. bytes (128 + 0 kbps) - CD user data size : 833237920. = (800 - 5)*1024*1024 - 380000 - SelectRangeEvery : every 750, select 15 frames - Num. sample frames : 2445 -------------------------------------------------------- Calculations: - Estimated mpv size : 785131733. (Q=40, 1284 kbps, 15703020 sample sz) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - Number of CDs : 2 - Target mpv size : 1549974759. (2535 kbps) -------------------------------------------------------- - Binary search for Q: - Estimated mpv size : 904919993. (Q=32, 1480 kbps, 18098844 sample sz) - Estimated mpv size : 1401775600. (Q=16, 2293 kbps, 28036200 sample sz) - Estimated mpv size : 1512040094. (Q=8, 2473 kbps, 30241544 sample sz) - Estimated mpv size : 1516169993. (Q=4, 2480 kbps, 30324144 sample sz) - Estimated mpv size : 1516684780. (Q=2, 2481 kbps, 30334440 sample sz) - Estimated mpv size : 1517918150. (Q=1, 2483 kbps, 30359108 sample sz) -------------------------------------------------------- - Determined Q. : 1 -------------------------------------------------------- Replace values in ecl file: - opv_q_factor : 1 - opv_brate_max : 2230 ==> 2530 - vbr_brate_avg : 6000 ==> 2230 -------------------------------------------------------- - Encoding Movie - 2003-07-04 06:15:27 |
4th July 2003, 08:38 | #205 | Link |
Author of D2SRoBa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 483
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The bitrate is just above max (2530). In this case, D2SRoBa, really should have swithced to CBR MAX automatically, instead of OPV Q=1. That is a planned feature .. sometime...
You could try selecting 1 CD: if you think the quality is OK, you can set Worst Q to the Q it uses, but Q's much above 40 is not recommended, IMO. (The bitrate for Q=40 is already only 1284 in this case). Your previous error: "# AUTOIT - Unknown function/variable!" seems to be gone! The "#Infinity somewhere!" is also gone in 2.4.1 Last edited by tylo; 4th July 2003 at 08:42. |
4th July 2003, 16:25 | #206 | Link | ||
Graphite mod
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Away
Posts: 2,022
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Hi Tylo,
Some more room for improvement. Range mode (i.e. 1-2, 2-3, etc.) is supposed to give you information for you to make a choice, right? I just encoded Changing Lanes with 1-2. Excerpts from the log file: Quote:
Quote:
I think it would be more informational to show the propper obtainable BRs for the CD number in question, and to show also how much BR will be left unused in this case. The user might make then a decision to use that available BR to encode a second audio track or better audio quality, since the video quality could not be much improved. Or, decide maybe to encode CBR to fill the CDs (even though it will not give you more quality, may speed up the encode a bit). Regards,
__________________
MPEG4 quality with MPEG2? - Try the Poor Man's DVD. FACAR - As seen on TV! - The Complete Idiot's Guide to a good DVD Conversion. Time is money. Try D2Sroba for DVD2SVCD (FAQ) and save both. All electricity bills supported! Do you know how much overscan and which resolution your TV has? Find out if NTSC. Moderator: 1: one who arbitrates 2: one who presides over an assembly, meeting, or discussion 3: a substance (as graphite) used for slowing down neutrons in a nuclear reactor (Webster) |
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6th July 2003, 19:59 | #207 | Link |
Author of D2SRoBa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 483
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Thanks r6d2,
I'm working on this right now. Also fixed a few bugs reported via PMs. I'll put up an intermediate version with bugfixes and correct bitrates reports. Then a version that also switches to CBR when appropriate + percentage fill of last CD. BTW: Good idea! Cheers. (EDIT): Uploaded v2.4.2: Bugfix release. Hope to release the new features before vacation is coming up next weekend. Last edited by tylo; 6th July 2003 at 21:58. |
7th July 2003, 01:05 | #208 | Link |
Graphite mod
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Away
Posts: 2,022
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Still more room for improvement (and DVD2SVCD was right!)
Hi Tylo,
I've been using D2Sroba OPV lately and I still have a difficult time to get a full last CD. I've played with the tweak factor (gambling), with the number of GOPs, sample size, and every time I seem to find the right settings for a fully automated encode (that's what this is all about, isn't it? ), I get screwed by the next movie, which has some sort of different behaviour which has lead me to conclude that "standard" or "optimal" rules for prediction just suck. I mostly used TMPGEnc before finding your plugin. Used ToK to do prediction. That program has 2 different algorithms to predict. They usually get good results, but you have to use big samples and at the end it's not worth it. You better go with 2Pass VBR at once to fill the CDs. The same happens to me with D2Sroba. In some movies, D2Sroba overestimates the final BR by much (5%-10%), and on some movies, it underestimates too (very bad). On the former case you just end up with a not filled last CD, which is not so bad after all given the time you saved by one pass + 2%*6 prediction phase (1.12 pass). But on the latter case, you end up with a too large last CD, which will not fit, or a small "next to last" which really sux: you lost all your encode time. I tried to figure out why this happens, and I think I found it: If you encode with an underestimated Q and set max=2530 (max by spec) you are telling CCE: "hey, fella, please feel free to use all the available BR range to keep the Q". And as prediction underestimated, the movie required more bits, so the final avg BR you expected is overrun. I think that's why @DVD2SVCD passed avg.BR as max to CCE when doing OPV. That way he was pretty sure that CCE would not go beyond that, and thus the warning he gives that you will not get a last full CD! And read my lips: You will not have BR overflow! So, I think DVD2SVCD passing avg.BR as max to CCE OPV was not a flaw, it was a feature, and done on purpose! On 3 out of 10 movies I do, prediction underestimates. Don't know why. I've not been able to find a pattern. But don't panic. There may be a fix for this! What about, once finding the Q by binary search (range 300-2530), you do another search for the max BR which will be needed for this movie in order not to overflow? I don't know which method to use, linear interpolation, binary search, some testing must be done here. Any opinions from the experts out there (@Bach, @Gerti, @DDogg, @RB, @DVD2SVCD, and others I may forget)?
__________________
MPEG4 quality with MPEG2? - Try the Poor Man's DVD. FACAR - As seen on TV! - The Complete Idiot's Guide to a good DVD Conversion. Time is money. Try D2Sroba for DVD2SVCD (FAQ) and save both. All electricity bills supported! Do you know how much overscan and which resolution your TV has? Find out if NTSC. Moderator: 1: one who arbitrates 2: one who presides over an assembly, meeting, or discussion 3: a substance (as graphite) used for slowing down neutrons in a nuclear reactor (Webster) Last edited by r6d2; 7th July 2003 at 01:08. |
7th July 2003, 08:24 | #209 | Link | ||
Author of D2SRoBa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 483
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Quote:
Quote:
I think the best way to deal with underestimated Q's (resulting in too big last image), is to automatically reencode the movie with corrected Q (OPV), or use VAF file, and do second pass VBR with correct Avg. bitrate. |
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7th July 2003, 12:19 | #210 | Link |
Still Kick'n
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 677
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There have been alot of good ways to try and guesstimate the final size of doing this one pass stuff but in my opinion there is no way to get exact estimates to fill the CD's all the time without doing sample after sample and ending up waisting more time doing that, then to just do a multi pass encode. The sample(s) choosen could be selected on the slow parts of the movie and miss the action so then would over-quesstimate the bitrate or visa-versa. With the speed PC's are able to encode now a days, I would just do the extra pass and be done with quesstimating headaches. My 2 cents
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7th July 2003, 16:08 | #211 | Link | |||||
Graphite mod
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Away
Posts: 2,022
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Quote:
But small samples like 1% or 2% have a huge error, which probably is good enough to find the Nš of CDs to use, but not to guess the Q. Quote:
BTW, you will find that min *is not* irrelevant either, and in fact it weights more than the Q in OPV mode! Quote:
Also if you let the threshold to swith to CBR parametric, the user may set it to, for instance, 2200, and go CBR instead than MP VBR or OPV. Quote:
Quote:
Regards,
__________________
MPEG4 quality with MPEG2? - Try the Poor Man's DVD. FACAR - As seen on TV! - The Complete Idiot's Guide to a good DVD Conversion. Time is money. Try D2Sroba for DVD2SVCD (FAQ) and save both. All electricity bills supported! Do you know how much overscan and which resolution your TV has? Find out if NTSC. Moderator: 1: one who arbitrates 2: one who presides over an assembly, meeting, or discussion 3: a substance (as graphite) used for slowing down neutrons in a nuclear reactor (Webster) Last edited by r6d2; 7th July 2003 at 16:12. |
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7th July 2003, 17:26 | #212 | Link | |
Still Kick'n
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 677
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Quote:
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7th July 2003, 19:01 | #213 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Monsters, Inc.
Posts: 180
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Suggestion for Tylo-
Can you make the status window so that isn't always on top? When I run other programs I have the status window stuck on top of my app and I can't move it. ALso, what does changing the Ajsut Q setting do exactly? |
7th July 2003, 19:50 | #214 | Link | |
Still Kick'n
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 677
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Quote:
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7th July 2003, 20:34 | #215 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Monsters, Inc.
Posts: 180
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Thanks for the Q adjust info. Now it makes sense. I also think I understand the position of the status window, but can it made to be no always on top? I jsut want it disapear when I launch another app while ds3roba is running.
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7th July 2003, 21:00 | #216 | Link | |
Graphite mod
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Away
Posts: 2,022
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Quote:
__________________
MPEG4 quality with MPEG2? - Try the Poor Man's DVD. FACAR - As seen on TV! - The Complete Idiot's Guide to a good DVD Conversion. Time is money. Try D2Sroba for DVD2SVCD (FAQ) and save both. All electricity bills supported! Do you know how much overscan and which resolution your TV has? Find out if NTSC. Moderator: 1: one who arbitrates 2: one who presides over an assembly, meeting, or discussion 3: a substance (as graphite) used for slowing down neutrons in a nuclear reactor (Webster) |
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8th July 2003, 11:02 | #218 | Link | |
Still Kick'n
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 677
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Quote:
Thanks |
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8th July 2003, 11:46 | #219 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: England
Posts: 15
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Quote:
I think you run a risk of D2SRoBa suddenly writing "D2SROBA.ECL" or some such in your app Adge |
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8th July 2003, 12:14 | #220 | Link |
Author of D2SRoBa
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 483
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We're getting there, but we must put more intelligence into the plugin, before it is the preferred way for everyone to make SVCDs. (even for the multipass fanatics).
I changed GOPs to SF Range (sample frame range). I am experimenting with using fewer frames than one GOP in the SelectRangeEvery, in order to get a lower "every" number with the same Sample %. That gives a better distribution of the samples (every 17 sec, with 2%), but makes awfull short cuts. I've tried 4, 5, and 8 frames, and it seems 8 works quite well (instead of 15). You'll need to boost the Adjust Q a bit, but it should give more stable estimations. I have also figured out another way to safely cut down number of tests by 1-2 (from 6). I'll throw out the version for you to play with when I got time. |
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