I am here for all of you Ask Away

Rated · 25th December 2002, 23:39

Its Great to Be a member of Doom9's moderators. Not to long ago I picked myself up a Terk-55 UHF Antena and a Hipix DTV-200. I haven't been this excited about encoding and the TV division of the scene in quite sometime. I can honestly say, its worth the money all be it expensive, but enough about my gear. I am here to help make this area of learning alot easier for everyone. Theres seriously no text at all on this topic anywhere, beleive me i have looked, just a few programs but no explaination at all as to how to use them or incorporate them into a method you would like to come up with on your own. Please Refer any and all Questions on the Topic to This forum for future reference. I will be checking multiple times through out the day and 1 or 2 times on the weekends due to my personal life and ammount of time spent working. Please Enjoy your Stay and Ask Away no question is silly or will be deleted without @ least an explaination :-)

Be Excellent to Each Other,

Rated

RadicalEd · 26th December 2002, 03:43

whoa like, hdtv forum
coolness
alright here's a question, in the future for film and anime stuff do you think they'll just use 720p or do a telecine sort of thing in order to use 1080i?
I kind of hope they'll reuse telecine, I mean, 1920 x 1080 source material = teh cool :/

Sgt_Strider · 26th December 2002, 08:10

Quote:

Originally posted by RadicalEd
whoa like, hdtv forum
coolness
alright here's a question, in the future for film and anime stuff do you think they'll just use 720p or do a telecine sort of thing in order to use 1080i?
I kind of hope they'll reuse telecine, I mean, 1920 x 1080 source material = teh cool :/

Wouldn't it be even better if everyone uses 1080p? I mean, 1920 x 1080 p material would look pretty amazing right????

RadicalEd · 26th December 2002, 08:25

yeah, but AFAIK there is no 1080p in the HDTV standard ;p
too much data for 19 mbps :\

trbarry · 26th December 2002, 08:33

Cool, an HDTV forum.

On the 720/1080 issue I would mildly prefer they use telicined 1080i since we can IVTC it back to 1080p anyway. Though it is too bad HDTV rarely seems to have the flags set up so we can just use DVD2AVI force film.

Anyway, this new forum was quite a Xmas present.

- Tom

Sgt_Strider · 26th December 2002, 09:06

Quote:

Originally posted by RadicalEd
yeah, but AFAIK there is no 1080p in the HDTV standard ;p
too much data for 19 mbps :\

You sure? I remember reading a article mentioning the existence of that resolution in the HDTV standard...

trbarry · 26th December 2002, 15:16

The following is the table of allowed formats from www.atsc.org document A54:

Code:

Table 5.1 Compression Formats
Vertical          Aspect 
 lines    Pixels  ratio        Picture rate
1080      1920     16:9        60I, 30P, 24P
720       1280     16:9        60P, 30P, 24P
480       704      16:9,4:3    60P, 60I, 30P, 24P
480       640      4:3         60P, 60I, 30P, 24P

They have 1080p but left out 1080p @ 60 fps because it was too demanding.

- Tom

?¿öM¿? · 26th December 2002, 19:05

Hi, I think this is extremely exciting having this new forum open.

Sort of on the topic. I read somewhere (can't remember where

) that DVD as a media storage was not very usefull as far as HDTV was concerned due to the massive amount of space required to store lossless video data at the higher resolution HDTV is capable of.

Is this accurate?

RadicalEd · 26th December 2002, 20:16

oh, even better then! I wonder why I had thought 1080p wasnt going to be supported.
As for the DVD issue, well, some of the companies had been pushing for the same 700nm red laser DVD discs to store HDTV content in mpeg4 or highly postprocessed mpeg2, but I believe those plans fell through (thankfully).

trbarry · 26th December 2002, 21:29

With some of my own playing around with recorded ATSC streams I think Xvid can do a pretty decent 1280x720 @ 24 movie at around 1/4 bits/pixel.

But at that rate you could put almost a 2 hour movie on a DVD-R and almost 4 hours on a commercial dual layer DVD with regular old red laser.

But if you wanted 1920x1080 @ 24 then that might be pushing it a bit for red lasers.

- Tom

bbq@KL · 26th December 2002, 21:38

Can DScaler and HiPix talk to each other under DirectShow? It would be really cool to scale 1080i internally.

Maybe we can also use a high quality capture card to grab external video. Then DScaler may transfer the video to HiPix without deinterlacing it. Apply some DScaler filters if you like. HiPix will scale the source to 1080i.

Right now 1080i overlay is pretty hard to create and the quality may vary. We need either Radeon + 9X/ME/7093 drivers or Matrox G400/G450/G550. HiPix seems to be a much better option for that particular purpose.

trbarry · 27th December 2002, 03:32

bbq -

I think only the very fastest bus server machines can manipulate 1080i in software. There's still just too much data so it's still beyond anything we can touch in DScaler. Those machines are maybe still a year or 2 out there.

Remember that with the Hipix or other HTPC cards when you see them reading and writing the data to the disk it is only the compressed data they are handling. We can still swamp a 2 Ghz machine in DScaler with 720x480i and a few heavy duty filters running.

- Tom

Mikename · 27th December 2002, 05:37

I believe I heard something about NASA adopting 1080p but that might've just been for in-house purposes not for actual broadcast.

OUTPinged_ · 27th December 2002, 06:39

Well it's my dream to have a collection of xvid rips at 720p/1080p resolution, so here are questions:

How much CPU power is required to play a high filedity divx/xvid stream at 720p resolution? and a 1080p?

Also, is there really a need for 1080p res for divx rips? For 1.5 hour long movie we would have 7mbit average. for 3hour movie - around 4.5mbit. Considering the amount of pixels is 2.25 times larger for 1080p, is it worth the effort?

Also, did anyone bother to check how much larger native 60fps streams get comparing to 24/30 fps? The motion estimation engines in later xvid seem to be quite good, bitrate shouldnt double.

[edit] found some hq hdtv samples already. Boy, they are big. BIG O_o [/edit]

RadicalEd · 27th December 2002, 07:22

hmm yeah, come to think of it until I get a 19 or 21 inch monitor 960 x 540 is gonna be pretty much the largest thing I can playback :O

OUTPinged_ · 27th December 2002, 08:00

@radicalEd

Well with 19" one there isnt any use for 1080p either.

PC upgrade is coming so I want to see what should I upgrade to. Will p4-2.4 be enough to playback 1080p? :/

RadicalEd · 27th December 2002, 08:25

hey you're right.. what's the next up from 1600 x 1200?

What we really need are some good 16x9 monitors with a res of like.. 2048 x 1152
btw whats with all the HD computer monitors that are out being 16 x 10? :/

OUTPinged_ · 27th December 2002, 13:10

@ed

I am pretty sure we will see lots of 1080 lcd widescreens in the future. 1920x1080 isnt yet listed by any *XGA specs but it's not that hard to add it :-)

Anyway, all PCs that were released before this year won't be able to play hdtv divx (hdivx =) without serious hardware support.

I am pretty sure that for a start ripping scene would have to settle for 720p@24fps as it did for 640x divx. it is still 4 times bigger than a canonic 640x352 divx file and the output quality should be great.

trbarry · 27th December 2002, 14:37

I think 720p is workable for Xvid encodes, but 1080p is not practical yet. And it seems I can play 720p on a 866 P3 in 960x544 (G400) resolution at mostly full speed, depending on the bit rate. Anything higher sort of falls off a performance cliff. Even on my 2.4 Ghz P4 I don't seem to be able to play 1920x1080p Xvid, though that might change if I was rendering in YV12 without any RGB conversions.

But I don't mind downscaling things to 720p anyway. If you capture 1080i and then deinterlace/IVTC it there will be a few artifacts and it's easier to think of it as an oversampled 720p.

And very few displays can really show the difference between 1080p and 720p yet.

Because of playback performance issues I haven't tried encoding any rate faster than 24 or 30 fps. While 60 fps probably wouldn't double the needed file size I think it would mostly double the needed memory bandwidth for display.

Anybody know what it would take to get Xvid display using Fast Write? Or even hardware IDCT?

- Tom

OUTPinged_ · 27th December 2002, 19:45

Even on my 2.4 Ghz P4 I don't seem to be able to play 1920x1080p Xvid

Well that is disappointing :-) What about 1280x720@24fps? Will it be enough for p4-2+ghz to decode very complex himo scenes from divx stream?

I have a p3-840 muself and I dont get anywhere near realtime for 720p playback :/

About deinterlacing: do you have to do it realtime or you can afford "king size" capture?

Also, "it's all here" clip looked like sh*t deinterlacing-wise. Are current means to realtime deinterlace/decimate producing better output? I will test decomb's speed as i will get actual clip :/

25th December 2002, 23:39	#1 \| Link
Rated Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: US Posts: 2	I am here for all of you Ask Away Its Great to Be a member of Doom9's moderators. Not to long ago I picked myself up a Terk-55 UHF Antena and a Hipix DTV-200. I haven't been this excited about encoding and the TV division of the scene in quite sometime. I can honestly say, its worth the money all be it expensive, but enough about my gear. I am here to help make this area of learning alot easier for everyone. Theres seriously no text at all on this topic anywhere, beleive me i have looked, just a few programs but no explaination at all as to how to use them or incorporate them into a method you would like to come up with on your own. Please Refer any and all Questions on the Topic to This forum for future reference. I will be checking multiple times through out the day and 1 or 2 times on the weekends due to my personal life and ammount of time spent working. Please Enjoy your Stay and Ask Away no question is silly or will be deleted without @ least an explaination :-) Be Excellent to Each Other, Rated Last edited by Rated; 25th December 2002 at 23:42.

26th December 2002, 15:16	#7 \| Link
trbarry Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Gainesville FL USA Posts: 2,092	The following is the table of allowed formats from www.atsc.org document A54: Code: Table 5.1 Compression Formats Vertical Aspect lines Pixels ratio Picture rate 1080 1920 16:9 60I, 30P, 24P 720 1280 16:9 60P, 30P, 24P 480 704 16:9,4:3 60P, 60I, 30P, 24P 480 640 4:3 60P, 60I, 30P, 24P They have 1080p but left out 1080p @ 60 fps because it was too demanding. - Tom

26th December 2002, 19:05	#8 \| Link
?¿öM¿? Delphi Guru Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Narnia Posts: 62	Hi, I think this is extremely exciting having this new forum open. Sort of on the topic. I read somewhere (can't remember where ) that DVD as a media storage was not very usefull as far as HDTV was concerned due to the massive amount of space required to store lossless video data at the higher resolution HDTV is capable of. Is this accurate? __________________ A computer is a device for rapidly creating highly accurate errors.

27th December 2002, 06:39	#14 \| Link
OUTPinged_ MooPolice 1st division Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: VIlnius,LT Posts: 448	Well it's my dream to have a collection of xvid rips at 720p/1080p resolution, so here are questions: How much CPU power is required to play a high filedity divx/xvid stream at 720p resolution? and a 1080p? Also, is there really a need for 1080p res for divx rips? For 1.5 hour long movie we would have 7mbit average. for 3hour movie - around 4.5mbit. Considering the amount of pixels is 2.25 times larger for 1080p, is it worth the effort? Also, did anyone bother to check how much larger native 60fps streams get comparing to 24/30 fps? The motion estimation engines in later xvid seem to be quite good, bitrate shouldnt double. [edit] found some hq hdtv samples already. Boy, they are big. BIG O_o [/edit] __________________ ___________________MooPolice is watching you!____.o/________ Last edited by OUTPinged_; 27th December 2002 at 06:54.

27th December 2002, 08:00	#16 \| Link
OUTPinged_ MooPolice 1st division Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: VIlnius,LT Posts: 448	@radicalEd Well with 19" one there isnt any use for 1080p either. PC upgrade is coming so I want to see what should I upgrade to. Will p4-2.4 be enough to playback 1080p? :/ __________________ ___________________MooPolice is watching you!____.o/________

26th December 2002, 03:43	#2 \| Link
RadicalEd Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 987	whoa like, hdtv forum coolness alright here's a question, in the future for film and anime stuff do you think they'll just use 720p or do a telecine sort of thing in order to use 1080i? I kind of hope they'll reuse telecine, I mean, 1920 x 1080 source material = teh cool :/

26th December 2002, 08:25	#4 \| Link
RadicalEd Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 987	yeah, but AFAIK there is no 1080p in the HDTV standard ;p too much data for 19 mbps :\

26th December 2002, 08:33	#5 \| Link
trbarry Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Gainesville FL USA Posts: 2,092	Cool, an HDTV forum. On the 720/1080 issue I would mildly prefer they use telicined 1080i since we can IVTC it back to 1080p anyway. Though it is too bad HDTV rarely seems to have the flags set up so we can just use DVD2AVI force film. Anyway, this new forum was quite a Xmas present. - Tom

26th December 2002, 20:16	#9 \| Link
RadicalEd Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 987	oh, even better then! I wonder why I had thought 1080p wasnt going to be supported. As for the DVD issue, well, some of the companies had been pushing for the same 700nm red laser DVD discs to store HDTV content in mpeg4 or highly postprocessed mpeg2, but I believe those plans fell through (thankfully).

26th December 2002, 21:29	#10 \| Link
trbarry Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Gainesville FL USA Posts: 2,092	With some of my own playing around with recorded ATSC streams I think Xvid can do a pretty decent 1280x720 @ 24 movie at around 1/4 bits/pixel. But at that rate you could put almost a 2 hour movie on a DVD-R and almost 4 hours on a commercial dual layer DVD with regular old red laser. But if you wanted 1920x1080 @ 24 then that might be pushing it a bit for red lasers. - Tom

26th December 2002, 21:38	#11 \| Link
bbq@KL Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 27	Can DScaler and HiPix talk to each other under DirectShow? It would be really cool to scale 1080i internally. Maybe we can also use a high quality capture card to grab external video. Then DScaler may transfer the video to HiPix without deinterlacing it. Apply some DScaler filters if you like. HiPix will scale the source to 1080i. Right now 1080i overlay is pretty hard to create and the quality may vary. We need either Radeon + 9X/ME/7093 drivers or Matrox G400/G450/G550. HiPix seems to be a much better option for that particular purpose.

27th December 2002, 03:32	#12 \| Link
trbarry Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Gainesville FL USA Posts: 2,092	bbq - I think only the very fastest bus server machines can manipulate 1080i in software. There's still just too much data so it's still beyond anything we can touch in DScaler. Those machines are maybe still a year or 2 out there. Remember that with the Hipix or other HTPC cards when you see them reading and writing the data to the disk it is only the compressed data they are handling. We can still swamp a 2 Ghz machine in DScaler with 720x480i and a few heavy duty filters running. - Tom

27th December 2002, 05:37	#13 \| Link
Mikename Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 11	I believe I heard something about NASA adopting 1080p but that might've just been for in-house purposes not for actual broadcast.

27th December 2002, 07:22	#15 \| Link
RadicalEd Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 987	hmm yeah, come to think of it until I get a 19 or 21 inch monitor 960 x 540 is gonna be pretty much the largest thing I can playback :O

27th December 2002, 08:25	#17 \| Link
RadicalEd Registered User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 987	hey you're right.. what's the next up from 1600 x 1200? What we really need are some good 16x9 monitors with a res of like.. 2048 x 1152 btw whats with all the HD computer monitors that are out being 16 x 10? :/

27th December 2002, 13:10	#18 \| Link
OUTPinged_ MooPolice 1st division Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: VIlnius,LT Posts: 448	@ed I am pretty sure we will see lots of 1080 lcd widescreens in the future. 1920x1080 isnt yet listed by any *XGA specs but it's not that hard to add it :-) Anyway, all PCs that were released before this year won't be able to play hdtv divx (hdivx =) without serious hardware support. I am pretty sure that for a start ripping scene would have to settle for 720p@24fps as it did for 640x divx. it is still 4 times bigger than a canonic 640x352 divx file and the output quality should be great. __________________ ___________________MooPolice is watching you!____.o/________

27th December 2002, 14:37	#19 \| Link
trbarry Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Gainesville FL USA Posts: 2,092	I think 720p is workable for Xvid encodes, but 1080p is not practical yet. And it seems I can play 720p on a 866 P3 in 960x544 (G400) resolution at mostly full speed, depending on the bit rate. Anything higher sort of falls off a performance cliff. Even on my 2.4 Ghz P4 I don't seem to be able to play 1920x1080p Xvid, though that might change if I was rendering in YV12 without any RGB conversions. But I don't mind downscaling things to 720p anyway. If you capture 1080i and then deinterlace/IVTC it there will be a few artifacts and it's easier to think of it as an oversampled 720p. And very few displays can really show the difference between 1080p and 720p yet. Because of playback performance issues I haven't tried encoding any rate faster than 24 or 30 fps. While 60 fps probably wouldn't double the needed file size I think it would mostly double the needed memory bandwidth for display. Anybody know what it would take to get Xvid display using Fast Write? Or even hardware IDCT? - Tom

27th December 2002, 19:45	#20 \| Link
OUTPinged_ MooPolice 1st division Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: VIlnius,LT Posts: 448	Even on my 2.4 Ghz P4 I don't seem to be able to play 1920x1080p Xvid Well that is disappointing :-) What about 1280x720@24fps? Will it be enough for p4-2+ghz to decode very complex himo scenes from divx stream? I have a p3-840 muself and I dont get anywhere near realtime for 720p playback :/ About deinterlacing: do you have to do it realtime or you can afford "king size" capture? Also, "it's all here" clip looked like sh*t deinterlacing-wise. Are current means to realtime deinterlace/decimate producing better output? I will test decomb's speed as i will get actual clip :/ __________________ ___________________MooPolice is watching you!____.o/________