madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[DragonQ]

Originally Posted by Qotscha

If I play them at 50/59 Hz, then every frame is just presented twice and the result is the same, right?

Exactly. Note that most (all?) TVs and projectors don't actually use 24 Hz for 24p input sources because of the flicker it causes, so they'll typically play 24p material at 72 or 96 Hz (or higher), presenting each frame 3 or 4 times (or more).

[hannes69]

Personally i would prefer 0-255 because that means you actually have 255 values to spread the RGB out over, and with 16-235 you need to squeeze it in 220 different values, it may not be much in terms of bits, but maybe it helps to avoid banding once in a while.

Thanks! So I keep the 0-255 setting. With this setting as sideeffect desktop range is consistent with video playback. Easier for colorimeter use, so I can use HCFR patterns directly without using MPC HC and switching the pattern after each measurement. Calibration is already timeconsuming enough...

[LaUs3r]

Originally Posted by madshi

I don't know who ultimately decides the composition rate. I'd guess it's somewhere in the depth of the OS, or maybe the GPU drivers have something to do with it, too. At least there's no way to control it for normal applications. All madVR does is disable and reenable Desktop Composition whenever it switches display modes. That usually helps "updating" the composition rate. I suppose Windows just doesn't like different composition rates for primary and secondary monitors, but I don't really know. As I said, using fullscreen exclusive mode should help, as should disabling Aero while playing back video.

I'm not sure exactly what happens if composition rate and refresh rate don't match, but it seems to result in a lot of trouble.

I tried to follow your advice but unfortunately it didn't help.
Attached you'll find the madvr-settings I used and the log-file as well.

[aufkrawall]

Do you mind to upload the files to some sharehoster, e.g. Mediafire?
Then madshi and others don't have to wait for attachment approval.

[ThurstonX]

Originally Posted by DragonQ

Exactly. Note that most (all?) TVs and projectors don't actually use 24 Hz for 24p input sources because of the flicker it causes, so they'll typically play 24p material at 72 or 96 Hz (or higher), presenting each frame 3 or 4 times (or more).

Sorry for the noob question, just trying to wrap my head around it all. I have a movie I encoded using XviD with a 23.976 frame rate (progressive). I set my video card (Radeon HD 6670) to '23' Hz, and my TV (LG 47LS4500) reports 1080/24p. The movie playback is smooth, as one would expect. Moving my mouse pointer and dragging or resizing windows is jerky, as one would expect with that refresh rate.

On the other hand, if I leave my video card at 60Hz the movie still plays back fairly smoothly (I'm usually using ReClock), though there may be some judder.

It sounds like even if I set my card to use 23Hz, and the TV reports 1080/24p, the TV is actually using a faster refresh rate... at least it may be. It is labeled as a 120Hz TV, so could this be an instance when the 120Hz - even if it's just LG's TruMotion interpolation - is kicking in? Unlike older models, there is no way to enable or disable TruMotion on the 47LS4500. So if it's automated, this sounds like a case where it would/should be used.

CTRL+J OSD lists the display as 23.97550/1/2Hz in FSE (some slight deviation; ReClock is in use), but is this really related to the frequency used by the TV?


Sorry if this is OT. I'll just add that using software decoding in LAV (Core i5-3350P @ 3.10GHz Ivy Bridge) I run Jinc3 w/AR for chroma and image upscaling without a hitch for all types of videos.

For example, with the Radeon set at 23Hz, my 720x336 23.976 fps progressive (DVR dump to MPEG-2, then XviD-encoded SD) scaled to 1920x1080/24p, render times are Avg. 14.13ms.

Admittedly, this low-res, poorly sourced file exhibits a lot of aliasing on objects in motion at this scaling level, but oh well. It was an exercise in copying from a cable co. DVR via S-Vid Out. The MPEG-2 capture was just too damn big to save.

LOVE madVR and the LAV suite :-)

[DragonQ]

Originally Posted by ThurstonX

It sounds like even if I set my card to use 23Hz, and the TV reports 1080/24p, the TV is actually using a faster refresh rate... at least it may be. It is labeled as a 120Hz TV, so could this be an instance when the 120Hz - even if it's just LG's TruMotion interpolation - is kicking in? Unlike older models, there is no way to enable or disable TruMotion on the 47LS4500. So if it's automated, this sounds like a case where it would/should be used.

Correct. Your device might be outputting 23.976p and your TV will report this as the input, but it will not be refreshing at 23.976 Hz, it'll be using an integer multiple of that.

[Dodgexander]

Madshi following the bug i reported with FFDSHOW dxva, where do you stand on it? Is it something you're willing to look into, or are you not interested in supporting ffdshow compared to lav?

Thanks

[leeperry]

Oops, I guess I forgot to say that I still could use a tag for AR as PotP is really pointless for this kind of stuff as it only allows 4:3 and 16/9, duh

And its pan&scan feature is great, but not accurate at all as most of the time it will shrink or stretch the picture by as much as 12 pixels(just like MPC).......a far cry from ffdshow with its 0.01 AR accuracy

So yeah, AR tags and making the "windowed/exclusive" OSD messages disappear is all I crave at this point in mVR. Hopefully we'll be reaching 1.0 soon enough so I can ask for these again ^^

And going back to the HD gamut conspiracy theory, I now have that CRT perfectly calibrated and all the latest HD movies I tried looked grossly undersaturated in SMPTE-C....I also couldn't see any diff between EBU and REC.709 for european HD movies, which kinda makes sense. so indeed what may have appeared to be true half a decade earlier might very well not be anymore. I'll keep rolling them but it's rather clear that I'll have to make a new PotP automatic profile for HD@24p=REC.709

[ThurstonX]

Originally Posted by DragonQ

Correct. Your device might be outputting 23.976p and your TV will report this as the input, but it will not be refreshing at 23.976 Hz, it'll be using an integer multiple of that.

Thanks a lot for confirming.

[pururin]

Originally Posted by DragonQ

Exactly. Note that most (all?) TVs and projectors don't actually use 24 Hz for 24p input sources because of the flicker it causes, so they'll typically play 24p material at 72 or 96 Hz (or higher), presenting each frame 3 or 4 times (or more).

Maybe that's just the case for most newer models?
I have a problem with Samsung LED TV c5000 series (2010 model, 60Hz), video playback is of low framrate jerky using 1080p24 display mode changer in madVR (with ReClock).

The TV reports 1920x1080@24Hz and the playback seems to really be at that refresh rate.

Now I wonder what I should do if I play at 60Hz there are judder (3:2 pulldown thing) while at native 23/24Hz it's too jerky.
What are you guys using?

[DragonQ]

You don't seem to be understanding. If, for example, you get a 24 fps clip and play each frame 4 times at a refresh rate of 96 Hz, it'll come out looking the same (but the display will exhibit less flicker than if it were refreshing at 24 Hz). The "jerkiness" of 24p/25p material is inherent - there is simply not enough frames in each second to produce smooth video, and this is the reason for the "film look" of this type of content. If your TV can't do more than 60 Hz then it most likely uses 48 Hz for 24p video (even though it says "24 Hz" or "24p" because that's what the input signal is).

You seem to be confusing this with motion interpolation, which most TVs have the option for nowadays (and often it's enabled by default). This is where, instead of simply repeating frames, the display will create new frames at time points in between the existing ones. This will "smooth out" the video and make it look more realistic and less jerky, whilst removing the "film look".

[ryrynz]

My 2 cents on that, I've had times where motion interpolation appears more jerky, perhaps from it appearing so smooth for the most part until it gets to a particular jerky part in a scene which is less obvious with it disabled.. or perhaps it's a quirk of the algorithm, I'm not sure. Whatever it is for that reason I usually prefer it to be disabled.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by LaUs3r

I tried to follow your advice but unfortunately it didn't help.
Attached you'll find the madvr-settings I used and the log-file as well.

You've left the madVR list of display modes empty. That way madVR does not know which display mode to switch to. Try entering there: "1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p59, 1080p60". Of course you should only enter modes that your GPU actually supports. If it only supports 24.000Hz but not 23.976Hz then remove 1080p23 from the list, etc...

Originally Posted by Dodgexander

Madshi following the bug i reported with FFDSHOW dxva, where do you stand on it? Is it something you're willing to look into, or are you not interested in supporting ffdshow compared to lav?

Why would you want to use the ffdshow DXVA decoder? I guess I can put it on my list of things to check, but I don't think many people are using that decoder today, considering the LAV Video Decoder should offer the same features and is actively developed. In any case, this will be low priority for me, unless there are several users who're still using ffdshow DXVA for some reason and suffer from the same problem, too.

[iSunrise]

Originally Posted by leeperry

And going back to the HD gamut conspiracy theory, I now have that CRT perfectly calibrated and all the latest HD movies I tried looked grossly undersaturated in SMPTE-C....I also couldn't see any diff between EBU and REC.709 for european HD movies, which kinda makes sense. so indeed what may have appeared to be true half a decade earlier might very well not be anymore. I'll keep rolling them but it's rather clear that I'll have to make a new PotP automatic profile for HD@24p=REC.709

Until this very day, I haven´t seen too many examples where SMPTE-C was completely out of the question (apart from e.x. some native EBU or content you are 100% sure, because you filmed it yourself with a HD cam), so that REC.709 profile might make for some nice trial and error, but according to my Eizo CG243W, which has hardware calibrated profiles for e.x. SMPTE-C and REC.709, SMPTE-C still is the way to go. There´s just too much content out there where you´re either completely unsure or you don´t have the background to make such decisions, so I´ll keep with SMPTE-C. Everything else is just guess work. Often times if your assuming "undersaturated", you just want it to be more "catchy" and thus are making false decisions, because your brain wants it to look more appealing.

E.x. The Dark Knight Rises looks completely oversaturated and unfamiliar with REC.709 to a point where it gets annoying fast.

[leeperry]

Oh indeed, in TDKR flesh tones look terribly greenish in REC.709.....oh well, I'll keep rolling the darn gamuts then, luckily I can do it in two mouse clicks now and it works in pause mode too

[6233638]

Originally Posted by leeperry

oh indeed, in tdkr flesh tones look terribly greenish in rec.709.....oh well, i'll keep rolling the darn gamuts then, luckily i can do it in two mouse clicks now and it works in pause mode too

ctrl + alt + shift + p

[Duffy Moon]

Originally Posted by 6233638

ctrl + alt + shift + p

Or indeed whatever key combo you want. I changed mine to ctrl + shift + p due to the difficulty of pressing 4 keys on my diNovo Mini keyboard.

[QQ]

hi,

sorry if this has been answered somewhere in this thread, but.. what's the difference between using madvr decoders in favor of MPC decoders, and why should I choose one over another?

[konakona]

Originally Posted by QQ

hi,

sorry if this has been answered somewhere in this thread, but.. what's the difference between using madvr decoders in favor of MPC decoders, and why should I choose one over another?

i suggest using LAV decoder for best quality-unless you meant renderer instead of decoder,then madvr is superior because of much better image quality it provides.

[LaUs3r]

Originally Posted by madshi

You've left the madVR list of display modes empty. That way madVR does not know which display mode to switch to. Try entering there: "1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p59, 1080p60". Of course you should only enter modes that your GPU actually supports. If it only supports 24.000Hz but not 23.976Hz then remove 1080p23 from the list, etc...

yeah, this works....I thought that the list of display modes is optional
thx, for your help!!!