LAV Filters - DirectShow Media Splitter and Decoders

[nevcairiel]

The "default" flag only controls which subtitle is loaded, it does not control wether a subtitle is loaded.
Subtitles that should always be loaded should be flagged "forced", not "default", thats my interpretation of the spec anyway.

I guess i can add a new option to treat default like forced, if people want that.

[pankov]

nev,
if I'm not mistaken STaRGaZeR is trying to say that LAV Splitter is loading the first track even though it is not marked as Default (in fact none is).
I think in this case no subtitles should be loaded.

[nevcairiel]

I understood him just fine, and like i explained, "default" does NOT control IF a subtitle is loaded, it just controls WHICH is loaded.
IF a subtitle is loaded is controlled with the "forced" flag.

The matroska spec defines the "default" stream to be used for the subtitle if no stream was found that matched the users language preferences (iow, the default, if no specific match exists). It does not mention anything else.

Like i also said, i can add an option to treat default the same as forced, even though i think its silly.

[Kalekulan]

I'm having trouble getting out uncompressed sound to my headphones through my soundcard Asus Xonar Essence ST. The card supports 192KHz/24 PCM. I've tried putting the dtsdecoderdll.dll in the same folder as the LAV-filters but without success. I've enabled all kind of things in bitstreaming etc. but I get no sound.

Is it because my soundcard can't transform the DTS HD-MA 5.1-track to PCM while using bitstream?

[pankov]

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

I understood him just fine, and like i explained, "default" does NOT control IF a subtitle is loaded, it just controls WHICH is loaded.
IF a subtitle is loaded is controlled with the "forced" flag.

The matroska spec defines the "default" stream to be used for the subtitle if no stream was found that matched the users language preferences (iow, the default, if no specific match exists). It does not mention anything else.

Like i also said, i can add an option to treat default the same as forced, even though i think its silly.

I apologize but I don't understand.
if we follow your logic - how should we mark the subtitle tracks so none of them is loaded by default?
Is there an option meaning the opposite of "forced"?

[clsid]

Another crash issue:
Get Microsoft's GraphEdit tool. Try inserting a filter through its menu. It will crash when expanding the DirectShow filters list.
The cause is having too many mediatypes defined for the input pin of the filter. The max that GraphEdit supports is around 115.

(tested with GraphEdit build 090714)

[nevcairiel]

Originally Posted by pankov

I apologize but I don't understand.
if we follow your logic - how should we mark the subtitle tracks so none of them is loaded by default?
Is there an option meaning the opposite of "forced"?

Change the configuration of LAV Splitter, and set the "Subtitle Mode" to "Only Forced Subtitles". That'll cause it to only load subtitles that are marked "forced", unless you manually change the selection.

[nevcairiel]

Originally Posted by clsid

Another crash issue:
Get Microsoft's GraphEdit tool. Try inserting a filter through its menu. It will crash when expanding the DirectShow filters list.
The cause is having too many mediatypes defined for the input pin of the filter. The max that GraphEdit supports is around 115.

(tested with GraphEdit build 090714)

Thats too bad, i won't limit the number of types just because of that buggy tool.

What am i supposed to do, stop supporting new formats because MS has a broken application?

AFAIK, GraphStudio does not have that limitation (and is IMHO much nicer to work with!)

[Thunderbolt8]

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

Change the configuration of LAV Splitter, and set the "Subtitle Mode" to "Only Forced Subtitles". That'll cause it to only load subtitles that are marked "forced", unless you manually change the selection.

but that does means that forced subtitles will get loaded if such a track is present. but if you dont want ANY subtitles to be loaded or shown, then I guess this option is missing, right?

afaik then you have to untick a checkmark elsewhere, either in directovub or mpc-hc settings.

edit: lol sorry, missed the no subtitles option

edit²: too slow -.-

[nevcairiel]

Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8

but that does means that forced subtitles will get loaded if such a track is present. but if you dont want ANY subtitles to be loaded or shown, then I guess this option is missing, right?

The subtitle mode also has a third option for "No subtitles"

[clsid]

I also always use GraphStudio. I was just pointing out the issue and its cause, in case this issue ever pops up again.

[nevcairiel]

I know of the issue, but i decided to just ignore it.
Limiting the number of media types is not a viable option for me.

[pankov]

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

Change the configuration of LAV Splitter, and set the "Subtitle Mode" to "Only Forced Subtitles". That'll cause it to only load subtitles that are marked "forced", unless you manually change the selection.

OK
this will work, but I think STaRGaZeR was asking about a way to do it "on per file bases".

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

I understood him just fine, and like i explained, "default" does NOT control IF a subtitle is loaded, it just controls WHICH is loaded.
IF a subtitle is loaded is controlled with the "forced" flag.

After I've reread your post I think there is sense in the way Haali has done it.
Here is how I understand it:
If none of the tracks is marked as "forced" this means that none of the tracks is mandatory to be loaded. After this the splitter checks for a language preference and if none is set it should check for a "default" track and again if none is marked as such it shouldn't load any.
Now this could lead to a problem - if most .mkv files are muxed without a default track and the user is used to get the first one.
Does anybody know how other splitters react in such cases?

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

Like i also said, i can add an option to treat default the same as forced, even though i think its silly.

May be the option should be called "don't load subtitles if none is marked as forced or default"

[nevcairiel]

Originally Posted by pankov

this will work, but I think STaRGaZeR was asking about a way to do it "on per file bases".

I have no idea what there is to do "on per file bases". The options work for all files, LAV Splitter does not store special rules for special files.

Originally Posted by pankov

May be the option should be called "don't load subtitles if none is marked as forced or default"

That option is already present, thats exactly what happens when you set the subtitle mode to "Only Forced Subs" - well except that it only does it for "Forced", not for "Default", but that can be optionally added, even though it goes against my understanding of the MKV spec.

The point here is that its supposed to be configurable, and we'll never agree on a good default config. Personally, i only want forced subs, i don't want any others. I don't watch content where i have to read alot. But other people always want subs and rather turn them off on a file-per-file basis where they don't need them.
Everyone likes different things, and one mode will not please everyone.

I actually thought the options were pretty self-explaining, no-one ever misunderstood them before.

[pankov]

nev, please, don't get mad at me - it could be the language barrier (I'm not native English speaking) but I'm not sure if you understand my idea.
How can I accomplish the following without having to manually alter the settings before each movie:
When there is a forced subs track - load it.
When there is a default track - load it.
and for some .mkv files - don't load any subs.
I thought that if I don't mark any track as forced or default none will be loaded by default, but they will still be available for selection through the UI.

Feel free to ignore this post if you don't want to tutor me onto MKV spec.

[nevcairiel]

Right now, you cannot do this.

What works right now are these modes (assuming you configured some preferred languages)

SubMode "Full Subtitles" + "Only with matching language" checked (the default configuration)
- When there is a track matching your preferred language, it'll be selected.
- If there is more then one matching your language, the one with "default" is preferred
- Otherwise, no subtitles will be selected.

SubMode "Full Subtitles" + "Only with matching language" NOT checked
- When there is a track matching your preferred language, it'll be selected.
- If there is more then one track, the one with "default" is preferred
- If there was no "default", and no track matching the language, the first track is selected

SubMode "Only Forced" + "Only with matching language" checked
- When there is a track marked "forced" matching your preferred language, it'll be selected.
- Otherwise, no subtitles will be selected.

SubMode "Only Forced" + "Only with matching language" NOT checked
- When there is a track marked "forced" matching your preferred language, it'll be selected.
- If there was no track matching your language, the first stream marked "forced" will be selected
- Otherwise, no subtitles will be selected.

SubMode "No Subtitles"
- You get no subtitles.

What i am proposing is an option to simply add streams marked as "default" to the same logic as "forced" subs, so it would go like this, basically:

SubMode "Only Forced" + "Only with matching language" NOT checked + "Treat DEFAULT like FORCED" checked
- When there is a track marked "forced" OR "default" matching your preferred language, it'll be selected.
- If there was no track matching your language, the first stream marked "forced" OR "default" will be selected
- Otherwise, no subtitles will be selected.

This would give you the result you want. If there is a track "forced", it'll be used. If there is a track "default", it'll be used. If not, you don't get subtitles.

Anyway, i'm falling asleep now.

[pankov]

nev,
thank you very much for the detailed explanation.
The case I used was somewhat theoretical so you should add such an option only if others really need it. For me it's not that important.

[STaRGaZeR]

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

The "default" flag only controls which subtitle is loaded, it does not control wether a subtitle is loaded.

Indeed. So what happens if all tracks have their default flags explicitly set to "no"? Which one should the splitter load? Following what you just said: none should be loaded (and that means no subtitles pin). This is the only case I have problems with. Right now, if there's no default LAVS justs loads the first one, and that is what doesn't make sense IMO. Why the first and not the second, or none? Does the spec say anything specific about this case?

Originally Posted by pankov

I thought that if I don't mark any track as forced or default none will be loaded by default, but they will still be available for selection through the UI.

Dunno about the forced flag as I don't use it (there are no forced tracks in most MKVs out there, default is "no" for all tracks), but that's exactly what Haali does with the default flag, and what I think it should be done.

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

SubMode "Full Subtitles" + "Only with matching language" checked (the default configuration)
- When there is a track matching your preferred language, it'll be selected. Preferred list is empty.
- If there is more then one matching your language, the one with "default" is preferred Preferred list is empty.
- Otherwise, no subtitles will be selected. Previous two lines are false, so this one should be honored. Not the case, LAVS picks the first track, even if there is no default track.

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

SubMode "Full Subtitles" + "Only with matching language" NOT checked
- When there is a track matching your preferred language, it'll be selected. Preferred list is empty.
- If there is more then one track, the one with "default" is preferred. None is preferred.
- If there was no "default", and no track matching the language, the first track is selected. Exactly.

As you can see, both options yield the same result in the case I describe, even thou the first one (default) shouldn't select any of the tracks by your own words.

To make my point stronger: if there are no defaults that means the user has explicitly set them to no, because if the option "default" is used in all tracks (and this is the default option), mkvmerge sets the default flag to yes in the first track, and to no in the others. This guarantees that without direct and intentional user intervention the first track will be loaded regardless.

Proposition: if no defaults are found, don't select any. Everything else untouched. Nice and easy

Now my head is spinning after so many defaults :S

[SamuriHL]

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

I understood him just fine, and like i explained, "default" does NOT control IF a subtitle is loaded, it just controls WHICH is loaded.
IF a subtitle is loaded is controlled with the "forced" flag.

The matroska spec defines the "default" stream to be used for the subtitle if no stream was found that matched the users language preferences (iow, the default, if no specific match exists). It does not mention anything else.

Like i also said, i can add an option to treat default the same as forced, even though i think its silly.

OPTIONAL, maybe. I do not want this behavior. I want your interpretation of the spec because it's correct. We need more players that understand this and do the right thing when presented with this information instead of forcing subs on when they shouldn't be. Default != forced is the correct interpretation of the spec as I understand it, as well.

EDIT: I've read through more posts since replying. I get what they're saying I guess. If none are default or forced, then no subtitle should be selected. That's correct.

[STaRGaZeR]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

EDIT: I've read through more posts since replying. I get what they're saying I guess. If none are default or forced, then no subtitle should be selected. That's correct.

Bingo.