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Old 13th September 2008, 16:04   #1  |  Link
the Mad Duke
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On2 VP8

Did anybody get to beta test it? I don't see a personal use version on their site. I hope they release one.
http://www.on2.com/docs/graf/splash_on2.html
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Old 13th September 2008, 18:00   #2  |  Link
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Looking at the sample clip, it's interesting how they got x264 output to look like MPEG-4 (A)SP with all that macroblocking and somewhat annoying keyframe pumping. Would be nice to see the settings used. VP8 output on the other hand looks pretty much like x264 a year or two ago (without AQ and Psy RDO).
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Old 13th September 2008, 18:08   #3  |  Link
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"...VP8 50% better than h.264" Hahahaahahah Good joke. Besides PSyRDO shows that in fact PSNR value is USELESS!!!!
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Old 13th September 2008, 18:36   #4  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atak_Snajpera View Post
"...VP8 50% better than h.264" Hahahaahahah Good joke.
Note that they only claimed up to 50% less data / fewer CPU cycles, which could also be "25% worse most of the time" in real world scenarios
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Old 13th September 2008, 18:37   #5  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atak_Snajpera View Post
"50% better than h.264"
That's what already VP7 was claimed to be... yeah in deed, good joke
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Old 13th September 2008, 20:34   #6  |  Link
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Indeed, a good joke. VP7 was slower than H.264 and significantly worse quality than VC-1 in most of my tests (let alone H.264), so VP8 will likely be equally a joke.
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Old 14th September 2008, 02:21   #7  |  Link
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3 years ago On2's devs made everything possible for that VP7 could compete with x264 (revisions 2xx). They constantly were updating their codec from VP7.0.0 to VP7.0.9.
I hope On2's devs will try to do the same for vp8. Of course now VP7 has no chance to be comparable to x264. Since then there was only misc. update vp7.0.10.

I think the most important problems that VPx codecs have unstable local quality while overall quality isn't bad. VP7 has a problem with scene change. Key frames are highly quantized and rest of sequences recover details in temporal sequence. As a results there is no constant quality. Another issue is too strong deblocking filter. It's good only for very low bitrate.

To compete with x264 they must plan long time development to achieve solid and well tuned codec.

Just my opinion.

And good luck for a small company On2. They aren't MS to spread millions for VC-1 and they must face big standard.

Last edited by IgorC; 14th September 2008 at 02:24.
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Old 14th September 2008, 05:41   #8  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
Indeed, a good joke. VP7 was slower than H.264 and significantly worse quality than VC-1 in most of my tests (let alone H.264), so VP8 will likely be equally a joke.
I don't think. VP7 was excellent codec.
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Old 14th September 2008, 07:26   #9  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Originally Posted by Sagittaire View Post
I don't think. VP7 was excellent codec.
By excellent you mean it decoded slower than ffmpeg's H.264 decoding did... using a 2004 build of ffmpeg?
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Old 14th September 2008, 09:02   #10  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
By excellent you mean it decoded slower than ffmpeg's H.264 decoding did... using a 2004 build of ffmpeg?
Well I make test at this period (you too?) and VP7 was by far faster to decode if you compare with H264 (coreAVC not available).

I would add that you routinely denigrates the work of others. It is a bad habit. VP8 is perhaps really better than H264. Who's know? Certainely not you at this time.
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Last edited by Sagittaire; 14th September 2008 at 09:16.
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Old 14th September 2008, 09:10   #11  |  Link
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http://www.on2.com/index.php?599

loop filter is know. what are those "golden frames"? the same as the multiple reference frames feature in avc?
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Old 14th September 2008, 09:16   #12  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Sagittaire View Post
Well I make test at this period (you too?) and VP7 was by far faster to decode if you compare with H264 (coreAVC not available).
I did a test a while ago and the VP7 from On2's site was 5% slower than ffdshow (original, not tryouts) H.264 at the same time. I used default decoding settings. The quality varied depending on source, but mostly it appeared as if the video was extremely oversmoothed and then drastically oversharpened.
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I would add that you routinely denigrates the work of others. It is a bad habit.
When people outright lie to promote crappy software, I have every right to call them on their BS. Its not "denigrating the work of others" if their work is awful. And its generally safe to assume that, given the history of random companies coming out with proprietary formats that are all claimed to be X% better than H.264, that these are crap unless proven otherwise. And by "proven otherwise" I mean "a fair test done by somebody with no vested interest in the proprietary format."

If I had a dollar for every company promoting their format as "far better than H.264" that then turns out to be a joke, I'd be rich. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and On2 has provided neither.

It doesn't help my expectations that, in their entire history as a company, On2 has never come out with a format significantly better than those existing on the market (at least as far as I know). Right now, they seem to be rather desperate given that their only popular product, VP6, has been rendered obsolete by Adobe.

Also, I find it rather insulting that you imply I always denigrate the work of others. If you look at my responses to things like CoreAVC, the DivX encoder and decoder, and other such products, I am fully receptive to them. What I do not receive well are products that make wildly false claims in order to promote themselves. Say "this format will be good," not "this format will be 25% better than H.264." The former makes sense, the latter is complete marketing nonsense and I reserve every right to mock it ruthlessly until sufficient proof is given.

Last edited by Dark Shikari; 14th September 2008 at 09:29.
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Old 14th September 2008, 09:29   #13  |  Link
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I did a test a while ago and the VP7 from On2's site was 5% slower than ffdshow (original, not tryouts) H.264 at the same time. I used default decoding settings.
VP7 use Post-Process by default like DivX. If you want make serious comparison use decoder without PP like for MPEG4 ASP. In my memory VP7 without PP use the same CPU ressource than MPEG4 ASP. Say that H264 is faster than VP7 is like say that H264 is faster than MPEG4 ASP.



Quote:
If I had a dollar for every company promoting their format as "far better than H.264" that then turns out to be a joke, I'd be rich. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and On2 has provided neither, especially given the fact that their PSNR values in their test for x264 are over 4db lower than those achieved by residents of #x264 on Freenode at the same bitrate.
One2 is a serious compagny. At the VP7 begin One2 annonce comparable result to H264 (metric) with really faster decoding and it was true at this time. I make the test. You too?
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Old 14th September 2008, 09:33   #14  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Sagittaire View Post
VP7 use Post-Process by default like DivX. If tou want make serious comparison use decoder without PP like for MPEG4 ASP. In my memory VP7 without PP use the same CPU ressource than MPEG4 ASP.
If you're supposed to watch the video with a particular filter, it makes sense to compare with it. If they didn't want it on by default, they wouldn't have put it on by default. Or do you want me to add skiploopfilter to the H.264 decoding options? There are plenty of formats that you're not supposed to watch without a filter; comparing with settings that you would never actually use for viewing is a completely useless test.
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One2 is a serious compagny. At the VP7 begin One2 annonce comparable result to H264 (metric) with really faster decoding and it was true at this time. I make the test. You too?
And yet last time I looked the version of VP7 on On2's site is still 5 years old. Is a company truly "serious" if they abandon the product they release and never release any update, even a publicly available decoder? Perhaps they might have had some truth to their marketing 5 years ago, when H.264 was brand new and the implementations awful, but it has been 5 years and VP7 now sucks, regardless of its original status.
Quote:
Originally Posted by On2
TrueMotion VP7 is the world's best video compressor. It provides the best quality of any codec on the market today at datarates from dial-up to high-definition. It encodes quicker, decodes in fewer cycles, and is less complex than the standards-based codecs used by our competitors.
How can you not laugh at such absurdity?

Last edited by Dark Shikari; 14th September 2008 at 09:37.
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Old 14th September 2008, 09:44   #15  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
If you're supposed to watch the video with a particular filter, it makes sense to compare with it. If they didn't want it on by default, they wouldn't have put it on by default. Or do you want me to add skiploopfilter to the H.264 decoding options? There are plenty of formats that you're not supposed to watch without a filter; comparing with settings that you would never actually use for viewing is a completely useless test.
loopfilter is an official part of H264 decoding and not post-process for VP7 or MPEG4 ASP. It's just an option. With heavy Post-Process you can obtain a better speed for H264 than for MPEG4 ASP. The conclusion will be that H264 is faster than MPEG4 ASP? Seriousely ... lol.



Quote:
And yet last time I looked the version of VP7 on On2's site is still 5 years old. Is a company truly "serious" if they abandon the product they release and never release any update, even a publicly available decoder? Perhaps they might have had some truth to their marketing 5 years ago, when H.264 was brand new and the implementations awful, but it has been 5 years and VP7 now sucks, regardless of its original status.How can you not laugh at such absurdity?
Well you have make test with VP8 ... ? Yes or not ? Don't speak if you don't know. It's trolling.
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Last edited by Sagittaire; 14th September 2008 at 09:50.
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Old 14th September 2008, 09:47   #16  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Well you have make test with VP8 ... ? Yes or not ? Don't speak if you don't know. It's trolling.
Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Since I cannot test with VP8, I will declare their extraordinary claims to be bunk until I am given sufficient proof otherwise.

If I say "there is a giant 5 mile high monster in the Australian desert," you would tell me I'm nuts. Am I allowed to then say that you're trolling, since you don't know, and therefore shouldn't speak on the topic?
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loopfilter is a official part of H264 decoding and not post-process for VP7
How do you know? The VP7 spec is not public. Perhaps I should quote you on this issue?
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Don't speak if you don't know. It's trolling.

Last edited by Dark Shikari; 14th September 2008 at 09:50.
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Old 14th September 2008, 09:49   #17  |  Link
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please all be nice
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Old 14th September 2008, 10:01   #18  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
Again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Since I cannot test with VP8, I will declare their extraordinary claims to be bunk until I am given sufficient proof otherwise. If I say "there is a giant 5 mile high monster in the Australian desert," you would tell me I'm nuts. Am I allowed to then say that you're trolling, since you don't know, and therefore shouldn't speak on the topic?
Well you can make little test with foreman PSNR graph and see if H264 result are correct.


Quote:
The VP7 spec is not public. Perhaps I should quote you on this issue?
From One2tech the codec developper. IMO it's a good source, isn't it? PP is an option for VP7 like for MPEG4 ASP or VC1.
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Old 14th September 2008, 10:06   #19  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Well you can make little test with foreman PSNR graph and see if H264 result are correct.
I may try this later, but its also important to note that x264 is nowhere near the king at PSNR; last I saw Mainconcept could still beat it considerably at times. Yet in practice, Mainconcept often looks awful compared to x264, in some cases even being beaten out by Xvid. Partially because of this, I no longer consider PSNR graphs to be much proof of anything.

On2 has a particularly hard challenge because, as a promoter of purely proprietary formats, they have to both make a good format and make a good implementation--they are on their own. Even if they can overcome the odds and make a format that is significantly superior to H.264, if they are as obsessed with PSNR as they make themselves out to be, they surely have no chance of competing with x264.
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Old 14th September 2008, 10:28   #20  |  Link
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Big claims indeed
Wonder when they will be able to back it up by releasing their awesome codec
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