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Old 28th July 2017, 08:54   #44461  |  Link
AngelGraves13
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I hope that sometime in the future that NGU Chroma will only scale once with image doubling, like SuperXBR instead of scaling once and then being doubled.
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Old 28th July 2017, 10:02   #44462  |  Link
mrjones
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Clock Deviation

I am playing live TV through kodi/Vader and am getting buffering .
MADVR is reporting the clock deviation is at 68% !!!
Is this the source or a function of something else?
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Old 28th July 2017, 12:52   #44463  |  Link
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Originally Posted by mrjones View Post
I am playing live TV through kodi/Vader and am getting buffering .
MADVR is reporting the clock deviation is at 68% !!!
Is this the source or a function of something else?
That's normal... as soon as there is a glitch in the stream or buffering that "clock deviation" is meaningless. It is a calculated guess at the clock deviation, and the calculation goes through the roof if the stream gets interrupted.

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Old 28th July 2017, 13:09   #44464  |  Link
Asmodian
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Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
Interesting discussion on the topic. Yeah, that is my prime question: does smooth motion nullify accurate clock timings. Less blended frames is a good thing. I'm sure madshi will answer too.
I found a quote from madshi about it, I remember another one mentioning not syncing the start of the blending factors to v-sync but I couldn't find it.
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The reason madVR measures the VSync position for blending factors does not have anything to do with tearing. Actually I could add any random (but constant!) offset to the measured VSync position, and it wouldn't cause motion smoothness to be harmed. E.g. if I added a 0.5 frame offset to the measured VSync position, this would cause the blending factors to change accordingly, and the net result would be an audio/video sync mismatch of 0.5 frames, but motion smoothness would still be the same. The reason madVR measured the VSync position is that only this way the blending factors adjust perfectly to the output refresh rate, so that I never ever have to drop or repeat a video frame.

It's complicated, but I hope my explanation is understandable?
I did some experimenting in Excel:
24/1.001 fps @ 59.900 Hz = 80.04% blended
24/1.001 fps @ 60/1.001 Hz = 40.12% blended
24/1.001 fps @ 59.94006 Hz = 79.98% blended
24/1.001 fps @ 60.000 Hz = 79.72% blended
24/1.001 fps @ 75.000 Hz = 63.74% blended
24/1.001 fps @ 120.000 Hz = 39.76% blended

Random partial v-sync offsets in the start of playback do not change the percentage of blended frames noticeably, except for the theoretically perfect refresh rates. 24/1.001 fps @ 60/1.001 Hz changes to match the nearly perfect 59.94006 Hz with 79.98% blended frames when adding a 0.3 v-sync offset at the start of playback.
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Old 28th July 2017, 18:02   #44465  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I did some experimenting in Excel:
24/1.001 fps @ 59.900 Hz = 80.04% blended
24/1.001 fps @ 60/1.001 Hz = 40.12% blended
24/1.001 fps @ 59.94006 Hz = 79.98% blended
24/1.001 fps @ 60.000 Hz = 79.72% blended
24/1.001 fps @ 75.000 Hz = 63.74% blended
24/1.001 fps @ 120.000 Hz = 39.76% blended

Random partial v-sync offsets in the start of playback do not change the percentage of blended frames noticeably, except for the theoretically perfect refresh rates. 24/1.001 fps @ 60/1.001 Hz changes to match the nearly perfect 59.94006 Hz with 79.98% blended frames when adding a 0.3 v-sync offset at the start of playback.
I really lost you here.

From the experiments in Excel I would conclude that it's better to playback 23.976 material at 60/1.001 but how can only 40% frames being blended? Are some frames simply repeated?
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Old 28th July 2017, 19:17   #44466  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
24/1.001 fps @ 60/1.001 Hz = 40.12% blended
24/1.001 fps @ 59.94006 Hz = 79.98% blended
I don't really understand this (maybe I'm being dim), isn't 60/1.001hz = 59.94006hz?

I had my TV at 60hz, and I typed in Madvr allowable refresh rates of 60p and 59p, and used a 24/1.001 source with smooth motion. MadVR switched to 59p (59.94hz) to play it. So I assumed MadVR thinks 59.94 is better than 60 when using smooth motion.
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Old 28th July 2017, 19:29   #44467  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
I really lost you here.

From the experiments in Excel I would conclude that it's better to playback 23.976 material at 60/1.001 but how can only 40% frames being blended? Are some frames simply repeated?
Don't think you can really get 40% only, not at 60 fps. Only every 5th frame has matching source/VSYNC timings, no matter how perfect the clock.

If you assume perfect timing, and 24 fps and 60Hz for simplicity (in milliseconds)
Code:
Frames: 0          41.66          83.33           125.00            166.66
VSYNC:  0 16.66 33.33 50.00 66.66 83.33 100.00 116.66 133.33 150.00 166.66 183.33 200
As you can see, a few frames fit perfectly on the timing, but only one in five on the output, so 4 in between will be blended (eg. 80%) - and thats already the best case.


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Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
I don't really understand this (maybe I'm being dim), isn't 60/1.001hz = 59.94006hz?

I had my TV at 60hz, and I typed in Madvr allowable refresh rates of 60p and 59p, and used a 24/1.001 source with smooth motion. MadVR switched to 59p (59.94hz) to play it. So I assumed MadVR thinks 59.94 is better than 60 when using smooth motion.
The key is that 60/1.001 is perfect precision, and 59.940 is not. As soon as it diverges just a tiny tiny bit (which you will), you might as well use 60Hz, since it no longer matters.
Unless SmoothMotion accounts for that of course and allows tiny deviation without blending. In general, just don't think too much about it. Using a native 24p mode is IMO always superior, but if your screen doesn't have that, SM is probably the best you can do.
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Last edited by nevcairiel; 28th July 2017 at 19:43.
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Old 28th July 2017, 19:55   #44468  |  Link
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@Asmodian

not sure how you used excel to come up with these numbers but madVR blends as little frames as possible. because no clock is perfect every vsync where two frames overlap is blended with other words it blends a frame every time a new frame needs to be displayed.

that means with 42 ms and 16 ms refresh rate 1 out of 3 v-syncs is never ever be blended and up to 2 out of 4 v syncs is not a blended frame so more than 66% blended frames is not possible and less than 50 % too.

with perfects clocks it would be 20% BTW.
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Old 29th July 2017, 02:18   #44469  |  Link
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Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
I don't really understand this (maybe I'm being dim), isn't 60/1.001hz = 59.94006hz?

I had my TV at 60hz, and I typed in Madvr allowable refresh rates of 60p and 59p, and used a 24/1.001 source with smooth motion. MadVR switched to 59p (59.94hz) to play it. So I assumed MadVR thinks 59.94 is better than 60 when using smooth motion.
That was an example to show that while theoretically it is possible to get below the normal number of blended frames by tuning the refresh rate perfectly it isn't actually possible (59.94006 is an error of only 0.0000001%).

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@Asmodian

not sure how you used excel to come up with these numbers but madVR blends as little frames as possible. because no clock is perfect every vsync where two frames overlap is blended with other words it blends a frame every time a new frame needs to be displayed.

that means with 42 ms and 16 ms refresh rate 1 out of 3 v-syncs is never ever be blended and up to 2 out of 4 v syncs is not a blended frame so more than 66% blended frames is not possible and less than 50 % too.

with perfects clocks it would be 20% BTW.
I see, I had some trouble trying to figure out an equation that gave reasonable results, I thought I got it but it still isn't accounting for the timing of the frame blends correctly so it was double counting blends.

I will see if I can figure it out... simple math is too easy! Must get simulator working!

Edit2: Hmm, frame 3 is displayed for 3.5 v-syncs? The blend ratios are still off.

Edit3: OK, I think I figured out something. All my logic is timed based now so I hope it matches what madVR calculates. I do get <50% blending but I believe this is correct? All frames total up to exactly the display time ratio we expect. I also calculated a new stat, "Average Blend" which is the average blending ratio across 20 thousand frames. I think this is actually a better representation of how much blending is going on, compared to percent blended frames.

24/1.001 fps video with smooth motion displayed at:

24.00000 Hz = 99.80% blended, 50% average blend
30.00000 Hz = 79.82% blended, 40% average blend
48.00000 Hz = 49.85% blended, 25% average blend
59.94006 Hz = 40.03% blended, 20% average blend
60.00000 Hz = 39.86% blended, 20% average blend
75.00000 Hz = 31.87% blended, 16% average blend
120.0000 Hz = 19.88% blended, 10% average blend
144.0000 Hz = 16.62% blended, 8% average blend

An interesting note about the average blend is that a V-sync offset doesn't change it at all unless you are using a nearly perfect refresh rate, and even then that is only because I am limited to 20,000 frames, as you can see the blending ratios drift up and down as the frame rate and V-sync drift in and out of sync.

I hope someone else finds it useful, it took me a while to figure out the spreadsheet.
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Old 29th July 2017, 04:10   #44470  |  Link
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Ya know, I always thought the higher the hz the more likely it was to have more blended frames.. Would if be wise to allow madvr the ability at higher refresh rates to change the ratio?
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Old 29th July 2017, 04:32   #44471  |  Link
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Change which ratio?
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Old 29th July 2017, 05:04   #44472  |  Link
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The amount of blended frames so its smoother. Couldn't you do approx half blended half repeated for example?
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Old 29th July 2017, 05:18   #44473  |  Link
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where do you get this info it is the % of blended frames goes down with higher refresh rates.
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Old 29th July 2017, 07:11   #44474  |  Link
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I just spent a long time attempting to quantify exactly how much less blending happens as the refresh rate increases.

24.00000 Hz = 99.80% blended, 50% average blend
30.00000 Hz = 79.82% blended, 40% average blend
48.00000 Hz = 49.85% blended, 25% average blend
59.94006 Hz = 40.03% blended, 20% average blend
60.00000 Hz = 39.86% blended, 20% average blend
75.00000 Hz = 31.87% blended, 16% average blend
120.0000 Hz = 19.88% blended, 10% average blend
144.0000 Hz = 16.62% blended, 8% average blend

My Excel Spreadsheet if anyone is interested or wants to check my work.
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Old 29th July 2017, 10:21   #44475  |  Link
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The amount of blended frames so its smoother. Couldn't you do approx half blended half repeated for example?
The point of madVRs smooth motion is to make it as smooth as 24Hz, not even more smooth than 24Hz. If you want it smoother, look into things like SVP...
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Old 29th July 2017, 14:07   #44476  |  Link
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When using FSE mode with seek bar enabled, should I see a pointer once I move the mouse to the bottom of the screen bringing up the seek bar?
I see the seek bar but I don't know where the pointer is to actually click and seek, or is the seek bar just intended as a reference point to look at?
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Old 29th July 2017, 14:20   #44477  |  Link
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Cursor should show, try updating your display driver. Latest are 17.7.2 for AMD and 384.94 for Nvidia.
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Old 29th July 2017, 15:20   #44478  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Q-the-STORM View Post
The point of madVRs smooth motion is to make it as smooth as 24Hz, not even more smooth than 24Hz. If you want it smoother, look into things like SVP...
24Hz is not smooth though. The point of smooth motion is to make things more smooth and it was my opinion based on madshi's post about it that higher refresh rates lead to more blends which meant better motion resolution and smoothness.. but if Asmodian's calculations are correct then what madshi said about higher refresh rates being better is actually linked to the fact that's only because smooth motion is doing less.

Anyway, don't recommend SVP as an alternative to smooth motion, they're quite different and IMO not comparable with one another, also I dislike its results.
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Old 29th July 2017, 16:19   #44479  |  Link
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24Hz is not smooth though. The point of smooth motion is to make things more smooth
"Smooth motion" emulates 24hz refresh rate on a screen with a different refresh rate. It does so by blending adjacent frames, which is basically pixel response time increased by 1/refresh rate (for some frames, not all).

Does watching video on a screen with 16ms response time makes it smoother? Kinda, but it's a very questionable thing to do.
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Old 29th July 2017, 17:03   #44480  |  Link
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Cursor should show, try updating your display driver. Latest are 17.7.2 for AMD and 384.94 for Nvidia.
I've tried 384.94 (I was a version behind) but same thing. I actually don't get a mouse cursor at all in FSE.
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