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Old 15th July 2014, 06:53   #26921  |  Link
wikita
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
My personal opinion is that madVR price/performance is at about the same place it is for video games, maybe a little below, which now that I think about it is almost scary.
thanks a lot for your answer and especially this part. who knew video playback could be so performance heavy.
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Old 15th July 2014, 12:41   #26922  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Just to clarify,

Blu-Ray is encoded and stored on the disc as Ycbcr 4:2:0, then madVR converts YCbCr to RGB and does all the processing and output in RGB, correct?
I have read on AVSForums that most TVs convert incoming RGB signal back to YCbCr for processing unless we choose a special option to tell the TV to skip the conversion and output pure RGB.
On a Panasonic this option called "1080 Pixel Direct".

An easy indicator would be if the Color/Saturation slider is still working if we feed RGB signal into the TV, then the TV converts incoming RGB to YCbCr for processing and back again to RGB for the panel.
So basically we get another conversion step which may (or may not) degrade the signal.
IMO the best method , if you have the correct pattern, is verify the Chroma Upsampling Error.

i prefer directly see the results of the chroma upsampling to evaluate the quality.
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Old 15th July 2014, 14:32   #26923  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Hmmm... They didn't have time to look at it *yet*? Or they generally don't have time to look at it?
Their answer was apparently just as vague as what I told you, they do know about it and they might look at it when they find the time. I guess they care a lot more about tiny optimizations for the latest videogames.
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Old 15th July 2014, 14:59   #26924  |  Link
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Hi,
I want to change the refresh rate of my display when playing a video and restore the default settings (1080p60) when leaving fullscreen. I was using smooth motion until now but it is taking a lot of ressources that I want to use to add debanding.
My display refresh rate can be set between 50 and 75Hz. I've tried using the following settings in the display mode tab in madVR :
1080p60, 1080p59, 1080p50

However, the refresh rate always remains at 60Hz when playing 30, 24 or 23.9 fps videos. Is it normal ? How do madVR choose which display mode to use ?

Thanks for your help.
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Old 15th July 2014, 16:31   #26925  |  Link
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Check your display's manual. I have a feeling other refresh rates than 60hz are usable only with lower, non-native resolutions.
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Old 15th July 2014, 17:17   #26926  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyral View Post
I've tried using the following settings in the display mode tab in madVR :
1080p60, 1080p59, 1080p50

However, the refresh rate always remains at 60Hz when playing 30, 24 or 23.9 fps videos. Is it normal ?
mVR only asks Windows to roll refresh rates, do you have options for those rates in the Windows graphic settings? If not, you would need to enable them in your graphic drivers.

PS:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyral View Post
refresh rate can be set between 55 and 75Hz
See if 72/75Hz aren't internally reclocked to 60Hz then

Last edited by leeperry; 15th July 2014 at 22:40.
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Old 15th July 2014, 20:10   #26927  |  Link
Vyral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YxP View Post
Check your display's manual. I have a feeling other refresh rates than 60hz are usable only with lower, non-native resolutions.
After checking the display's manual, the refresh rate can be set between 55 and 75Hz, but there is nothing about resolutions and refresh rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
mVR only asks Windows to roll refresh rates, do you have options for those rates in the Windows graphic settings? If not, you would need to enable them in your graphic drivers.
Windows and AMD CCC both allow me to set the refresh rate to 60, 59 and 50Hz.

EDIT : I've changed the settings with 1080p60 and 1080p59. It seems to work because the refresh rate is changed during playback but it's either 60Hz or 59.9Hz.
Well whatever, I'll stay with 60Hz and without smooth motion (I have 0 dropped/delayed frames since I turned it off).

Thanks for help
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Last edited by Vyral; 16th July 2014 at 08:58.
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Old 16th July 2014, 14:19   #26928  |  Link
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as far as i know repeated or dropped frame forced by vsync are not shown in the OSD.
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Old 16th July 2014, 19:27   #26929  |  Link
Mark Regalo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
as far as i know repeated or dropped frame forced by vsync are not shown in the OSD.
How can we solve problems related to vsync dropped/repeated frames if it's not shown in the OSD? Thanks.
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Old 16th July 2014, 19:30   #26930  |  Link
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SM or match your frame rate. custom resolutions is a possibility too.
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Old 17th July 2014, 18:10   #26931  |  Link
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Hi Guys,

I've changed my HTPC from this:
Silverstone GD08B/Intel 2120T/Noctua NH-U9BSE2/Asus P8H67-M Pro/Corsair XMS 2x2GB/Samsung 830 256 GB/7x2TB HDD/Asus GTX 660/Seasonic X-400 to the setup currently in my signature.

So my question is, is there somewhere in this massive thread there is a good explanation of NNEDI and frame doubling and stuff like that?

With my previous setup I used Jinc 3 tap but now I am not sure what is optimal with the considerably more powerful GTX 770.

Thanks.
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Old 17th July 2014, 22:08   #26932  |  Link
Anime Viewer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaurus View Post
So my question is, is there somewhere in this massive thread there is a good explanation of NNEDI and frame doubling and stuff like that?

With my previous setup I used Jinc 3 tap but now I am not sure what is optimal with the considerably more powerful GTX 770.

Thanks.
Opinions are varied on the usefulness of NNEDI3 in its three enable-able areas as well as what settings to use.

I have NNEDI3 enabled for Luma image doubling, and have it set to 16 neurons since I can see a difference in anti-aliasing when I have it enabled compared to disabled, but I don't see a difference between 16 neurons and any of the higher settings with the content I watch. Some may recommend you use more neurons, but I say you decide that for yourself. Play a video, pause it, switch between the different settings (clicking apply after each) and see if you notice a change in picture quality for the better. If you do - use the new setting, but if not leave it at the lower setting and use those resources elsewhere.

madshi has said that he found during his testing that chroma doubling didn't have a significant effect, and was a huge hit on performance. As a result he doesn't recommend using it.

As far as chroma upscaling by NNEDI3 goes I don't notice any significant improvement using it over Jinc in the videos I watch, but again you can switch back and forth between the two while watching your videos and see if you see a difference. Another thing I noticed about NNEDI3 when used for chroma upscaling is that it can have a big hit to rendering speed even when it shouldn't be doing much (like if your playing a 1920x1080 video on a 1920x1080 screen. I posted the below on a different forum where I am attempting to help them determine presets for a codec pack that includes madVR using NNEDI3 options to be preset in their setup:

Code:
(1):
chroma upscaling -jinc 3 taps
luma double - always if upscaling is needed - 16 neurons
image upscaling - bilinear
downscaling - catmull-rom

(2):
chroma upscaling -jinc
luma double - always if upscaling is needed - 16 neurons
image upscaling - jinc
downscaling - catmull-rom

(3):
chroma upscaling -jinc
luma double - always if upscaling is needed - 32 neurons
image upscaling - bilinear
downscaling - catmull-rom

(4):
chroma upscaling -jinc
luma double - always if upscaling is needed - 32 neurons
image upscaling - jinc
downscaling - catmull-rom

(5):
chroma upscaling -NNEDI3 - 16 neurons
luma double - always if upscaling is needed - 16 neurons
image upscaling - bilinear
downscaling - catmull-rom

(6):
chroma upscaling -NNEDI3 - 16 neurons
luma double - always if upscaling is needed - 16 neurons
image upscaling - bilinear
downscaling - catmull-rom

(7):
chroma upscaling -NNEDI3 - 32 neurons
luma double - always if upscaling is needed - 16 neurons
image upscaling - bilinear
downscaling - catmull-rom

For people who mainly watch 480p videos the fastest order would probably be (fastest listed first, slowest last) option 1, 3, 5, 2, 7, 4, then 6.

480p video render speeds
option #1: 10ms
option #2: 20ms
option #3: 16ms
option #4: 23ms
option #5: 18ms
option #6: 25ms
option #7: 21ms

720p video render speeds
option #1: 22ms
option #2: 29ms
option #3: 27ms
option #4: 31ms
option #5: 31ms
option #6: 35ms
option #7: 33ms

1080p video render speeds
option #1: 7.5ms
option #2: 7.5ms
option #3: 9ms
option #4: 8.6ms
option #5: 24ms
option #6: 24ms
option #7: 34ms
As you can see with the 1080p video tests options 5,6,& 7 which use NNEDI3 for chroma upscaling take four times longer to render then Jinc 3 tap (options 1,2,3, and 4).
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Last edited by Anime Viewer; 17th July 2014 at 22:10.
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Old 18th July 2014, 01:00   #26933  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime Viewer View Post
Another thing I noticed about NNEDI3 when used for chroma upscaling is that it can have a big hit to rendering speed even when it shouldn't be doing much (like if your playing a 1920x1080 video on a 1920x1080 screen.
Actually chroma upscaling should be doing exactly the same work when playing a 1920x1080 video on a 1920x1080 screen as it would with any other resolution screen.

The chroma is 1/2 the resolution of luma in both directions (4:2:0). You need to resize it to match the luma before converting to RGB. This means that chroma scaling is always used and is independent of the output resolution.

This idea seems to be hard for some:
There are three image planes for a color image. On a bluray the black and white information (luma, Y) is stored at 1920x1080. Color information is stored as two 960x540 images (chroma, U & V or Cb & Cr). One needs to resize the two 960x540 images to match the 1920x1080 luma before converting to RGB.

This resize happens before anything else madVR does and it almost always needs to be done (it is only not needed when watching a 4:4:4 or RGB video).
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Old 18th July 2014, 03:45   #26934  |  Link
tjcinnamon
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Settings to convert 4:4:4 RGB

Are there particular settings I need to set to get 4:4:4 RGB. My videos are always at 4:2:0.

Is that due to panel constraints?
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Old 18th July 2014, 10:53   #26935  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Are there particular settings I need to set to get 4:4:4 RGB. My videos are always at 4:2:0.

Is that due to panel constraints?
madVR always outputs 8-bit RGB, no setting needed. RGB cannot have subsampled color (Red, Green, Blue) so 4:4:4 or 4:2:0 do not apply.

Your display might do anything to the RGB or your GPU might convert to YCbCr if set to.
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Old 18th July 2014, 18:33   #26936  |  Link
tjcinnamon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
madVR always outputs 8-bit RGB, no setting needed. RGB cannot have subsampled color (Red, Green, Blue) so 4:4:4 or 4:2:0 do not apply.

Your display might do anything to the RGB or your GPU might convert to YCbCr if set to.
Doesn't MadVR show the output of the video in the statistics and not the displays output?

Meaning that if it says 4:2:0 -> 4:2:0 that is what my receiver is getting and if I changed a setting to 4:2:0 to 4:4:4 or RGB then even if my display downconverted it wouldn't matter due to MadVR only record what's it output is?
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Old 18th July 2014, 18:41   #26937  |  Link
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MadVR always outputs RGB. 4:2:0 -> 4:2:0 is decoder output.
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Old 18th July 2014, 19:08   #26938  |  Link
johnniedoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime Viewer View Post
Opinions are varied on the usefulness of NNEDI3 in its three enable-able areas as well as what settings to use.

I have NNEDI3 enabled for Luma image doubling, and have it set to 16 neurons since I can see a difference in anti-aliasing when I have it enabled compared to disabled, but I don't see a difference between 16 neurons and any of the higher settings with the content I watch. Some may recommend you use more neurons, but I say you decide that for yourself. Play a video, pause it, switch between the different settings (clicking apply after each) and see if you notice a change in picture quality for the better. If you do - use the new setting, but if not leave it at the lower setting and use those resources elsewhere.

madshi has said that he found during his testing that chroma doubling didn't have a significant effect, and was a huge hit on performance. As a result he doesn't recommend using it.

As far as chroma upscaling by NNEDI3 goes I don't notice any significant improvement using it over Jinc in the videos I watch, but again you can switch back and forth between the two while watching your videos and see if you see a difference. Another thing I noticed about NNEDI3 when used for chroma upscaling is that it can have a big hit to rendering speed even when it shouldn't be doing much (like if your playing a 1920x1080 video on a 1920x1080 screen. I posted the below on a different forum where I am attempting to help them determine presets for a codec pack that includes madVR using NNEDI3 options to be preset in their setup:

Code:
(1):
chroma upscaling -jinc 3 taps
luma double - always if upscaling is needed - 16 neurons
image upscaling - bilinear
downscaling - catmull-rom

(2):
chroma upscaling -jinc
luma double - always if upscaling is needed - 16 neurons
image upscaling - jinc
downscaling - catmull-rom

(3):
chroma upscaling -jinc
luma double - always if upscaling is needed - 32 neurons
image upscaling - bilinear
downscaling - catmull-rom

(4):
chroma upscaling -jinc
luma double - always if upscaling is needed - 32 neurons
image upscaling - jinc
downscaling - catmull-rom

(5):
chroma upscaling -NNEDI3 - 16 neurons
luma double - always if upscaling is needed - 16 neurons
image upscaling - bilinear
downscaling - catmull-rom

(6):
chroma upscaling -NNEDI3 - 16 neurons
luma double - always if upscaling is needed - 16 neurons
image upscaling - bilinear
downscaling - catmull-rom

(7):
chroma upscaling -NNEDI3 - 32 neurons
luma double - always if upscaling is needed - 16 neurons
image upscaling - bilinear
downscaling - catmull-rom

For people who mainly watch 480p videos the fastest order would probably be (fastest listed first, slowest last) option 1, 3, 5, 2, 7, 4, then 6.

480p video render speeds
option #1: 10ms
option #2: 20ms
option #3: 16ms
option #4: 23ms
option #5: 18ms
option #6: 25ms
option #7: 21ms

720p video render speeds
option #1: 22ms
option #2: 29ms
option #3: 27ms
option #4: 31ms
option #5: 31ms
option #6: 35ms
option #7: 33ms

1080p video render speeds
option #1: 7.5ms
option #2: 7.5ms
option #3: 9ms
option #4: 8.6ms
option #5: 24ms
option #6: 24ms
option #7: 34ms
As you can see with the 1080p video tests options 5,6,& 7 which use NNEDI3 for chroma upscaling take four times longer to render then Jinc 3 tap (options 1,2,3, and 4).
I appreciate the details -particularly rendering times viz a viz each config.
Very helpful despite different set ups we have. It is good to see what others may experience with their trial and error techniques.
I do precisely the same thing with my videos though any 1920x1080 movies I watch I sometimes just use x64 MPC-BE svn and custom renderer. I find that MadVr offers fantastic PQ enhancement with my favorite types of old b&w videos, color,too, though I watch them with far less frequency just because there were fewer made. I am new to using MadVr and MPC-BE together so still limited in my scope. Never used this combo on any BD disc or iso, not even the mkv versions i make. not yet.
Thanks again for the information
John
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Old 18th July 2014, 19:19   #26939  |  Link
tjcinnamon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detmek View Post
MadVR always outputs RGB. 4:2:0 -> 4:2:0 is decoder output.
Ahhhhh... So is there a way to increase the decoder output? I checked LAV and I have everything set.

So madvr outputs RGB and LAV is down converting it (for some reason)
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Old 18th July 2014, 19:30   #26940  |  Link
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no BD/DVD is RGB and Lavfilter doesn't down convert with a normal source.
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