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Old 16th January 2010, 23:46   #1981  |  Link
Alante
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
If the display supports it, *YES*, any clean multiply of 24Hz (including 120Hz) is better than 60Hz for movies. Maybe this math is too complicated for you?

NTSC movie frame rate = 24fps

24Hz/24fps = 1.0 = smooth motion
48Hz/24fps = 2.0 = smooth motion
72Hz/24fps = 3.0 = smooth motion
96Hz/24fps = 4.0 = smooth motion
120Hz/24fps = 5.0 = smooth motion

60Hz/24fps = 2.5 = motion judder

This is my last post on this topic.
Yeh man, but I was really specific every time i repeated myself, that i was referring only to those that don't support 120 Hz, the ones with a 60 Hz standard, since most LCD monitors 99% are in that position. And he, then you keep contradicted me, saying I'm wrong as if you agree with 120 Hz forced on on 60 Hz capable monitors. Regarding other specifications I've been subjective and admitted that, but in this situation I've been objective since I knew that the monitors with 120 Hz are new (2009) and have a crappy TN panel, which can be neglected if you're aiming for quality.

I have some video-clips at 25/50 FPS yet no motion judder ... Some might say this is related to "pulldown detection" yet with some driver versions used to get Flicker with PowerDVD. So far, I've only seen some motion judder on some badly encoded videos that didn't run at constant FPS (keep jumping between 24.9 - 25.2 - 27.2 - 29.8) but in that case, even the quality was poor and didn't really matter, since they weren't meant for keeping. Maybe I was lucky, yet from time to time, even I have some obsession with perfection, which luckily fades with time and in most cases I realize it was just the placebo effect.

PS.I'm harder to impress, usually by visible differences, since I had my share of disappointments... but don't mind me, since I've seen a lot of people, even some that I respect for their work, that appreciate madVR (Madshi's video render), which means you did something right with this project and maybe even I could noticed it with some proper tools which I don't have at the moment. What I'm saying or trying - keep up the good work for those that appreciate it and of course for yourself, don't get demoralized by some meaningless talk. Most great ideas, for many projects where just that - ideas, you don't have to have omniscience, not even for a single domain to make a good thing...

Last edited by Alante; 17th January 2010 at 00:05.
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Old 16th January 2010, 23:58   #1982  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by Alante View Post
Maybe I was lucky
my fav is this article: http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

the guy explains that 24p is evil, and that 60Hz is so much better...he also doesn't realize that most pj's will run 24p at 48Hz(Mitsubishi)/96Hz(Planar) or 240Hz(VPL-VW Sony serie w/ that MotionPlus thingie).

pretty much all you could think wrong has been put in this article, needless to say it has rendered pjcentral.com laughable to me.
Quote:
Scenes like this do not look great in 60p, but they look worse in 24p. After all the hype over 24p (the benefits of which we eagerly anticipated as much as anyone), it must be admitted that 60p playback can, in the final analysis, be less distracting for many people.
Quote:
When you play it back in 60p, the juddering effect in the background is still there, but it is reduced--it is easier to live with.
and then he says that movies should be shot in 60fps, hah..fail again.

48fps, maybe? http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...ryid=1043&cs=1
Quote:
I would vastly prefer to see 2K/48 frames per second as a new display standard, than 4K/24 frames per second.
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Old 17th January 2010, 00:16   #1983  |  Link
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
my fav is this article: http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

the guy explains that 24p is evil, and that 60Hz is so much better...he also doesn't realize that most pj's will run 24p at 48Hz(Mitsubishi)/96Hz(Planar) or 240Hz(VPL-VW Sony serie w/ that MotionPlus thingie).

pretty much all you could think wrong has been put in this article, needless to say it has rendered pjcentral.com laughable to me.


and then he says that movies should be shot in 60fps, hah..fail again.

48fps, maybe? http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...ryid=1043&cs=1
Those guys talk about projectors and cinema material . Sorry but I personally have poor experience with that, most from watching movies in cinema, non from my own practice - which is a usually guidance for my opinions. Don't really like to theorize about products that are out of my reach and can't prove to my self, that they can act as described. maybe that's why I never joined http://www.ferrarilife.com/forums/ .
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Old 17th January 2010, 00:31   #1984  |  Link
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it's the exact same thing...24fps source > display.

but well, to be perfectly honest, no standalone player either Kazuya or I have seen has ever been as smooth as Reclock...so if you had to choose between juddery 60Hz and hiccuping 23.976fps>24Hz, 60Hz might win indeed

a HTPC cannot be beaten as A/V entertainment platform.

Last edited by leeperry; 17th January 2010 at 01:11.
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Old 17th January 2010, 01:21   #1985  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Alante View Post
I don't use my PC as source for watching movies
This is the most unsurprising statement I've ever read.
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Old 17th January 2010, 02:39   #1986  |  Link
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Not to pile on Alante, but I still don't get what he means by forcing 120Hz to a non-120Hz capable display. Most 120 Hz TVs can't even take a 120 Hz input willy-nilly, let alone 60 Hz LCD. You should have to hack the EDID and even if your graphics card's control panel is showing you can output 120 Hz, either you'll get nothing or you get some garbled crap, and maybe even screw up your screen.
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Old 17th January 2010, 04:49   #1987  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manao View Post
That way, you have xxxx[p|i]yyy, where xxxx is the vertical resolution, yyy is the temporal resolution, and 'i' says the image has been irremediably destroyed.
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Old 17th January 2010, 12:43   #1988  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Andy o View Post
Not to pile on Alante, but I still don't get what he means by forcing 120Hz to a non-120Hz capable display. Most 120 Hz TVs can't even take a 120 Hz input willy-nilly, let alone 60 Hz LCD. You should have to hack the EDID and even if your graphics card's control panel is showing you can output 120 Hz, either you'll get nothing or you get some garbled crap, and maybe even screw up your screen.
By default, you have specific standard Rates like 60 Hz / 75 Hz which are the recommended frequencies for most LCD Monitors at their native resolution. This settings should be stable, synchronized with the A/D converter. I personally never tried other values, yet you can force custom values with PowerStrip (as STaRGaZeR mentioned). But I wouldn't recommended that, since there's a big chance for some technical problems, maybe not at lower refresh rates but beyond 75 Hz, the monitor A/D converter could work incorrectly with the user defined values, might even damage your LCD. Since he offered that solution, I keep repeating myself you shouldn't try it, wile STaRGaZeR said I was wrong - as if he recommended you to do just that. Even madshi agreed with him and honestly, that really surprised me (but not in a positive way)...

Last edited by Alante; 17th January 2010 at 12:46.
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Old 17th January 2010, 13:16   #1989  |  Link
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To summarize how this all got started:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alante View Post
It's an LCD, so there's no point in changing the refresh rate beyond or lower then 60 Hz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
Wrong. Just wrong.
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Originally Posted by Alante View Post
No, I'm not wrong - only have 2 x Refresh Rates on my LCD monitor: 60 Hz and 75 Hz, but 75 Hz gives no benefit, even makes things worst by adding more input lag.
What you said was simply wrong. Since your display supports 75 Hz there is a good reason to use that refresh rate if you watch media with 25 FPS (i.e. PAL) and that is to get more fluid motion. The problems you mention may be problems when you play games, but they don't have any negative impact when you watch movies. Since it can do those two refresh rates it probably can also do ~72 Hz which is good for 24000/1001 FPS content which is probably the majority of the content available these days and is present on NTSC DVDs and most Blu-Rays around the world. Nobody suggested trying to force a display that only supports 60 Hz to a rate of 120 Hz mainly because that's impossible. People just disagreed with the blanket statement you started with, that anything other than 60 Hz is useless.

Maybe it's because English isn't everyones first language here on the board, it certainly isn't my first language, but what you said is that if you have a display that can do 60 Hz and 120 Hz you should definitely run it at 60 Hz. The word capable doesn't in itself exclude other possibilities, especially if you use it in response to a person telling you that his monitor supports 120 Hz out of the box.
Quote:
Forcing 120 Hz on 60 Hz capable LCD will increase the input lag considerably and may also flicker the image.

Last edited by nurbs; 17th January 2010 at 13:45.
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Old 17th January 2010, 15:44   #1990  |  Link
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I don't really understand all the fuss about LCD, they're very nice for a secretary in an office(low power comsumption, flat, non-flickering)...but their native contrast blows, who needs light gray blacks exactly? you can throw 120/240Hz at them if you like, but their native CR still won't exceed 600:1 or so.

sure, some of them use the backlight in a dynamic way to artifically increase the CR(like a dynamic iris on a pj), but it will be very visible in extreme scenes...LCD is so pointless to begin w/

Last edited by leeperry; 17th January 2010 at 16:28.
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Old 17th January 2010, 17:47   #1991  |  Link
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Originally Posted by nurbs View Post
To summarize how this all got started:
What you said was simply wrong. Since your display supports 75 Hz there is a good reason to use that refresh rate if you watch media with 25 FPS (i.e. PAL) and that is to get more fluid motion. The problems you mention may be problems when you play games, but they don't have any negative impact when you watch movies. Since it can do those two refresh rates it probably can also do ~72 Hz which is good for 24000/1001 FPS content which is probably the majority of the content available these days and is present on NTSC DVDs and most Blu-Rays around the world. Nobody suggested trying to force a display that only supports 60 Hz to a rate of 120 Hz mainly because that's impossible. People just disagreed with the blanket statement you started with, that anything other than 60 Hz is useless.

Maybe it's because English isn't everyones first language here on the board, it certainly isn't my first language, but what you said is that if you have a display that can do 60 Hz and 120 Hz you should definitely run it at 60 Hz. The word capable doesn't in itself exclude other possibilities, especially if you use it in response to a person telling you that his monitor supports 120 Hz out of the box.
I think I know better then you at what I was referring, and even repeated that several times and get contradicted every time:

(post 1960)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alante View Post
It's a known fact that most LCD monitors operate at 60 Hz for optimal performance and give no benefit beyond that. And yes, I know they released some models capable of 120 Hz (yet capable is not the correct word - since it can't be compared to the one from CRT's), but unfortunately comes with a 'TN panel' so I doubt your "this is Doom9. Lots of people here and in other forums have that kind of equipment" argument can stand on this part.
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...postcount=1975 (post 1975)

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...postcount=1977 (post 1977)

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For the 3'rd time, I DIDN'T SAY 60 HZ is THE BEST OPTION, what i said is that most LCD Monitors or capable of 60 Hz and force 100 Hz on those LCD's (the once for which 60 Hz is a standard) is just wrong and even stupid (as in - the ones that do that, don't really know what their doing). And advising others, misleading them to do the same and saying this is the way to go (as if most LCD's are capable of 100 Hz and only few or stuck at 60 Hz)... well, I can't agree with that.


I seriously doubt many people from here have a monitor like yours. And it's not cause they can't afford it since is not really expensive, but because it has a TN panel. This being said regarding LCD monitors - not HDTV/Projectors.


WHY DO YOU PEOPLE KEEEP REPEATING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN as if MOST LCD's that where made until now have a standard of 100 HZ.


How many LCD Monitors are there, capable of 100 HZ - 120 HZ???? 4 - most released last year, even in December. If I'd make a pool about owners of LCD monitors, I seriously doubt 90% of doom9 forum will say they own those crappy TN panels based LCD.
I was never specific, like the lie you put in my mouth about having an LCD with 60 Hz and 120 Hz and using it at 60 HZ... More like detailed as seen in above quote, since 120 Hz monitors represent 1% of all monitors on market (available since 2009) and even those use a crappy TN panel. But I do admit, the next quote could be my mistake, since it's gaming related:

Quote:
No, I'm not wrong - only have 2 x Refresh Rates on my LCD monitor: 60 Hz and 75 Hz, but 75 Hz gives no benefit, even makes things worst by adding more input lag.
And really wasn't aware it can help with videos, since I don't have any problems with "motion judder" by rendering a 25 FPS Video at 60 Hz. Just tried it out of curiosity lately with a video at 25 FPS with RR at 75 Hz and plays exactly the same, definitely not smother in any way, so...

Quote:
sure, some of them use the backlight in a dynamic way to artifically increase the CR(like a dynamic iris on a pj), but it will be very visible in extreme scenes...LCD is so pointless to begin w/
If you're referring to Dynamic Contrast, that's just a marketing scam, use to put in on banners - a number like 20000:1, it's spotting for average users, and they cover 90% of clients.
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Old 17th January 2010, 19:16   #1992  |  Link
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
I don't really understand all the fuss about LCD, they're very nice for a secretary in an office(low power comsumption, flat, non-flickering)...but their native contrast blows, who needs light gray blacks exactly? you can throw 120/240Hz at them if you like, but their native CR still won't exceed 600:1 or so.

sure, some of them use the backlight in a dynamic way to artifically increase the CR(like a dynamic iris on a pj), but it will be very visible in extreme scenes...LCD is so pointless to begin w/
Plasma flickers, for proyectors you need lots of space and they lack resolution... it's a matter of preference. Have you seen RGB LED with local dimming LCDs? If not you should
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manao View Post
That way, you have xxxx[p|i]yyy, where xxxx is the vertical resolution, yyy is the temporal resolution, and 'i' says the image has been irremediably destroyed.
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Old 17th January 2010, 20:04   #1993  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alante View Post
By default, you have specific standard Rates like 60 Hz / 75 Hz which are the recommended frequencies for most LCD Monitors at their native resolution. This settings should be stable, synchronized with the A/D converter. I personally never tried other values, yet you can force custom values with PowerStrip (as STaRGaZeR mentioned). But I wouldn't recommended that, since there's a big chance for some technical problems, maybe not at lower refresh rates but beyond 75 Hz, the monitor A/D converter could work incorrectly with the user defined values, might even damage your LCD. Since he offered that solution, I keep repeating myself you shouldn't try it, wile STaRGaZeR said I was wrong - as if he recommended you to do just that. Even madshi agreed with him and honestly, that really surprised me (but not in a positive way)...
So you were talking about forcing higher frequencies than what the monitor can take with PowerStrip, and you're right about that. But they were talking about 120Hz-capable monitors and their use for watching movies, as far as I can tell. I think there's been a misunderstanding somewhere.
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Old 17th January 2010, 22:52   #1994  |  Link
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I think I know better then you at what I was referring, and even repeated that several times and get contradicted every time:
(post 1960)
Maybe you meant something different, but it's not there in writing. Capable of 60 Hz means it can do 60 Hz. It doesn't mean that it can't do 75, 100, 120 or whatever. You not being able to properly phrase what you want to say is not me putting lies in you mouth. Apparently no one here understood what you really meant, else they wouldn't have tried to correct you. Anyway this is pointless, I'm out.
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Old 17th January 2010, 23:02   #1995  |  Link
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Originally Posted by STaRGaZeR View Post
Plasma flickers, for proyectors you need lots of space and they lack resolution... it's a matter of preference. Have you seen RGB LED with local dimming LCDs? If not you should
wait for laser DLP, this will be the pinnacle of video entertainment..even in HDTV's, not just projectors(and no more RBE )

laser DLP - Google Search

the dead pixel/mura effects and so of LCD is a big no-no for me...CRT and DLP do everything LCD does, just better

the CR is unlimited on a CRT and the native contrast of a DarkChip4 can reach +4000:1, no way I will ever watch videos on a 600:1 CR display...anyway we've gone terribly OT I'm afraid, that's gonna make madshi a sad panda to have so much thread crapping on his private property
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Old 17th January 2010, 23:14   #1996  |  Link
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So you were talking about forcing higher frequencies than what the monitor can take with PowerStrip, and you're right about that. But they were talking about 120Hz-capable monitors and their use for watching movies, as far as I can tell. I think there's been a misunderstanding somewhere.
Kinda.. But those so called capable monitors where released for sell last year and they use a TN panel (that's why I said "so called"). I can't imagine lots of people owning those, or even rushing to get them cause of their crappy panel. Maybe only some gamers, the ones that missed 100 FPS in Counterstrike.

For those that don't know the difference between a TN panel and other panels (*VA, S-PVA, IPS , S-IPS, etc) and or confused about why do I think/say their crappy, here are 2 x comparisons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP7C00BIzH8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SjS6VCVAcA

The only monitors that can run at 120 Hz released until now have a TN panel (as far as I know - maybe they just released one 10 minutes ago or simply didn't catch that news).


Quote:
the CR is unlimited on a CRT and the native contrast of a DarkChip4 can reach +4000:1, no way I will ever watch videos on a 600:1 CR display...anyway we've gone terribly OT I'm afraid, that's gonna make madshi a sad panda to have so much thread crapping on his private property
Well, as you, are somebody else said, you do need a good source for seeing some kinda difference between other renders and his, so maybe some of this OT information could point the ones interested in the right direction. If not, few post later others might ask if there really is some difference, or is just placebo effect.
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Old 17th January 2010, 23:28   #1997  |  Link
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Well, as you, are somebody else said, you do need a good source for seeing some kinda difference between other renders and his, so maybe some of this OT information could point the ones interested in the right direction.
just like a mobo sound chip and a killer pimped soundcard won't make the slightest difference on $15 speakers, you might have a point in saying that mVR would be pointless over Overlay on a 60Hz-only low quality LCD monitor.

you need to use a display w/ perfect smoothness to begin w/, and a proper color calibration(D65/2.3ish).

also LCD screens are made of cheapo plastic, and their sharpness is inexistent...blame polycarbonate for its uber-low OTF/MTF sharpness specs(a well known fact in human visual correction): MTF sharpness - Google Search

high quality projectors lenses and CRT monitors use high grade multi-AR mineral glass, their sharpness is no match w/ a LCD flat screen...and did I mention their blurry anti-glare layer? I played around w/ DIY pj's years back and taking it out was like night and day:



I see 22" LCD monitors being sold for 89 EUR now, hah

Last edited by leeperry; 17th January 2010 at 23:32.
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Old 17th January 2010, 23:57   #1998  |  Link
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
wait for laser DLP, this will be the pinnacle of video entertainment..even in HDTV's, not just projectors(and no more RBE )

laser DLP - Google Search

the dead pixel/mura effects and so of LCD is a big no-no for me...CRT and DLP do everything LCD does, just better

the CR is unlimited on a CRT and the native contrast of a DarkChip4 can reach +4000:1, no way I will ever watch videos on a 600:1 CR display...anyway we've gone terribly OT I'm afraid, that's gonna make madshi a sad panda to have so much thread crapping on his private property
CRT, DLP and projectors don't have perfect geometry, so no, they don't do "everything an LCD does, just better" unfortunately. Every technology has its weaknesses.

Dead pixels? Just return the damn thing, it's defective

Also don't use crappy LCDs for your comparisons. A good LCD TV today has much higher CR than 600:1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKVp9...layer_embedded

I'd rather wait for OLED
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Quote:
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That way, you have xxxx[p|i]yyy, where xxxx is the vertical resolution, yyy is the temporal resolution, and 'i' says the image has been irremediably destroyed.
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Old 18th January 2010, 00:54   #1999  |  Link
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you can pimp LCD as much as you want, it'll still go through polycarbonate...which carries a very low constringence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbe_number

here's a very good link(in french unfortunately): http://pages.globetrotter.net/assoqc...4_4_virah.html



thick mineral glass goes up to 58 Abbe, polycarbonate 32...so twice more light dispersion

add the anti-glare panel on top of it, and MTF sharpness is just down the drain...no matter what you'll do, the panel itself will always be the weakest link.

I personnaly cannot stand polycarbonate glasses(they give me the feeling to watch through recycled Coke bottles, which they are...technically )

anyway, we should all enjoy our current set ups(I sure as hell do!) and eagerly wait for the next madVR update....so much time has passed, it'll be a blast for sure
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Old 18th January 2010, 01:16   #2000  |  Link
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just like a mobo sound chip and a killer pimped soundcard won't make the slightest difference on $15 speakers, you might have a point in saying that mVR would be pointless over Overlay on a 60Hz-only low quality LCD monitor.

you need to use a display w/ perfect smoothness to begin w/, and a proper color calibration(D65/2.3ish).

also LCD screens are made of cheapo plastic, and their sharpness is inexistent...blame polycarbonate for its uber-low OTF/MTF sharpness specs(a well known fact in human visual correction): MTF sharpness - Google Search

high quality projectors lenses and CRT monitors use high grade multi-AR mineral glass, their sharpness is no match w/ a LCD flat screen...and did I mention their blurry anti-glare layer? I played around w/ DIY pj's years back and taking it out was like night and day:

I see 22" LCD monitors being sold for 89 EUR now, hah
And I see professional Eizo CRT's at a similar price.

If you put it that way, same as a Mercedes is pointless compared to a Ferrari F60. But then again, I don't seek perfection and you're somehow contradictory since mVR is free, as in cheapest software solution. If money would bother me so much, then I would build my personal IMAX.

Take real audiophiles for example (not audiophiles wannabes), they invest a lot of money with their obsession, but you won't see them using a PC as source with Foobar2000, AIMP2 or other decent audio software... but hardware all the way...
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