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Old 10th November 2015, 23:45   #34201  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Image enhancement is applied before scaling, upscaling refinement is applied after upscaling. So yes, if you activate both, and then upscale, both will be applied separately ("twice"). At least that's the case atm. I have some ideas how to maybe streamline the whole thing, but the algos will need improvements before I can do that.
A good way to streamline image enhancements and upscaling refinement options is to combine the two into a category called "Image Sharpening" or "Post-process Sharpening" and separate them into "Pre-resize" and "Post-resize." One category to rule them all.
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Old 11th November 2015, 00:44   #34202  |  Link
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I have a quick question... Is upscaling refinement applied after a downscale?

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Old 11th November 2015, 01:09   #34203  |  Link
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I have a pretty general question about scaling which I think people in this thread are likely well positioned to answer, but apologies if this goes too far off topic. Basically, I'm wondering if you have an HD source which itself has been upscaled from SD but using a poor algorithm (e.g. bilinear), is there likely to be any benefit in downscaling it back to SD and re-upscaling it using a better algorithm? Or would it always look worse?
I'm pretty sure yes, but you'd need to use a fancy algorithm like deblinear to undo the upscale. Otherwise, you introduce artifacts when you upscale with the bilinear, then introduce even more when you downscale with something that isn't its exact inverse. Oh, and you'd need to know the source resolution of the master before it was upscaled poorly.
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Old 11th November 2015, 02:05   #34204  |  Link
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I have a quick question... Is upscaling refinement applied after a downscale?

QB
i did a short test and no didn't worked.

i don't know if sharpening is better done after downscaling or not but i guess it is.
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Old 11th November 2015, 03:57   #34205  |  Link
leeperry
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I think you didn't understand me: Running SuperRes every 2x upscaling step simply doesn't do anything. It looks pretty much the same as running it only once after upscaling is complete. So it's a total waste of performance to run it after every 2x upscaling step. As I said, if you think I'm wrong then please provide screenshot proof, using an older madVR build (please keep AdaptiveSharpen/FineSharp/LumaSharpen disabled for those screenshots).
Oh, so we're back to the "pretty much"/"more or less" argument

"screenshot proof"? I don't think there is such as thing as a "ground truth" concept when it comes to subjective settings such as sharpening? Otherwise there would be no strength option to those four new features to begin with?

What would change your mind exactly? Using a 1080p reference, downscaling it to anything using 960x540 using CR AR LL and then showing differences with 2X SR checked?

I just did a whole bunch of A/B comparisons on DVD'ish-resolution noisy movies in .13 with sxbr25+SR(St4/Sh2/R0.66) and I far prefer having 2X SR checked because it does look like double SR filtering to me, I mean I do get double-SR and high motion looks less edgy and a whole lot smoother(30fps@60Hz with Reclock) when the option is checked.

You admitted that 2X SR might make sense when other sharpening refinements are checked and it would make total sense to me to have SR pick the best looking frames after every 2X upscale, I think an extra checkbox as to whether the end-user wants SR going 2X as well would make perfect sense.

NNEDI3 is the real GPU hog, my HD7850 doesn't break a sweat when 2X SR is enabled and either way the PQ improvement totally warrants the extra GPU load(which is very low anyway).

I'm far more convinced by 2X SR than the four new features tbh because SR is just much more technically advanced to my eyes, ensuring that only the best frames are selected instead of trying to polish a turd so to speak.

I'm not interested in what "sharpen edges" and "crispen edges" have to offer, "thin edges" might be worth looking into and I'm not sure about "enhancing details" yet but then again I've never been interested in regular sharpening filters, I only like SR because it's a lot smarter than a regular sharpness knob and it looks outstanding in motion.

Long story short 2X is totally worth the extra GPU load to my eyes, at least with Reclock on a LCD screen and "thin edges" might allow sxbr to look thin like NNEDI3.

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Old 11th November 2015, 08:35   #34206  |  Link
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
I'm far more convinced by 2X SR than the four new features tbh because SR is just much more technically advanced to my eyes, ensuring that only the best frames are selected instead of trying to polish a turd so to speak.
You seem to be misunderstanding something, SR doesn't pick anything, it just works with the one frame. Or, to use your terminology, it's just really good at polishing turds.
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Old 11th November 2015, 08:49   #34207  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
A good way to streamline image enhancements and upscaling refinement options is to combine the two into a category called "Image Sharpening" or "Post-process Sharpening" and separate them into "Pre-resize" and "Post-resize." One category to rule them all.
I have a better plan (I think), but as I said, it won't work without doing some improvement to the algos first.

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Originally Posted by QBhd View Post
I have a quick question... Is upscaling refinement applied after a downscale?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Oh, so we're back to the "pretty much"/"more or less" argument

"screenshot proof"? I don't think there is such as thing as a "ground truth" concept when it comes to subjective settings such as sharpening? Otherwise there would be no strength option to those four new features to begin with?
We're back at "leeperry argues and argues and fails to provide any screenshots", as usual. This is my 3rd reply to your request, and you still didn't provide any screenshots. You're wasting my time by debating and debating and not doing what I asked for already in the my first reply to you, namely providing some screenshots.

All I want is some screenshots that show that running SuperRes after every 2x upscaling looks better than running it only once. That's all. No ground truth needed.
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Old 11th November 2015, 10:36   #34208  |  Link
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next file is not properly played

When next file in a directory is played then the audio is played only. The video freezes at the previous file. I mean, I have several files in single directory. I use mpc-hc with option to play next file in the directory after playback of the actual file ends. When the next file should be automatically played then the audio starts correctly. However, the video freezes at the last frame of the previously ended file. The same happens when I skip to the next file manually (video freezes at the last played frame of the previous file). I found out that this started with madvr 0.89.13. It is present in all subsequent releases 0.89.14-16. The problem is not present in 0.89.12. I started having the problem while running mpc-hc 1.7.9.190. Now I use mpc-hc 1.7.9.202 and it makes no change. I also use reclock 1.8.8.5. All software is 32-bit, running on Windows 7 64-bit (running geforce drivers 358.91, problem was seen also on 358.50).
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Old 11th November 2015, 13:02   #34209  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Shiandow View Post
You seem to be misunderstanding something, SR doesn't pick anything, it just works with the one frame. Or, to use your terminology, it's just really good at polishing turds.
Yes exactly, 2X does a more efficient double filtering and yields less noise in the end providing smoother motion thanks to the cleaner edges. Sharpening noise doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
We're back at "leeperry argues and argues and fails to provide any screenshots", as usual. This is my 3rd reply to your request, and you still didn't provide any screenshots. You're wasting my time by debating and debating and not doing what I asked for already in the my first reply to you, namely providing some screenshots.

All I want is some screenshots that show that running SuperRes after every 2x upscaling looks better than running it only once. That's all. No ground truth needed.
Last time I spent forever providing screenshots you dismissed them so I'm asking about a procedure that would make sense to you for a change.

We are indeed back at the "it looks more or less the same" argument on your part but again at this rate a lot of options in mVR are redundant, especially when it comes to chroma.

2X SR doesn't look "pretty much the same" by a long shot with noisy SD on my rig and you agreed that it made sense when extra refinements options were enabled so I don't understand why the sudden decision to disable it

So if I enable 0.1 "thin edges", I get 2X SR? I guess I could live with that.

And we're also back at the argument that I'm big enough to run scripts on my side(lucky me I don't have to justify my VST plugins chain in ffdshow to anyone) and that I'll have to waste time proving my point again when the difference is *very* obvious in motion on my rig and that this option had been there since the beginning for a good reason. Oh well, as a ground truth isn't needed this time I'll try to find noisy material that shows cleaner edges with 2X SR.


Last edited by leeperry; 11th November 2015 at 14:03.
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Old 11th November 2015, 15:45   #34210  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
don't change the gamma to fix crushed blacks. use the custom levels for it. way more effective and it "doesn't" change the gamma of the picture
Thanks for the suggestion, huhn, I'll try it out.
But what can be the difference at the viewer's point? I mean we already modified the gamma on the TV to 2.4.

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Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
In my case, on my TV I find 2.2 too bright overall, and 2.4 (even though it comes out of black very quickly, shadow areas are far too bright with both 2.2 and 2.4) a bit too dark overall and a bit too contrasty. Setting the TV to 2.2 and having MadVR apply a 2.35 gamma curve seems just about perfect.
That's pretty interesting. I thought it should be almost the same with: TV 2.4 and mdvr default gamma (2.2).
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Old 11th November 2015, 16:13   #34211  |  Link
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Thanks for the suggestion, huhn, I'll try it out.
But what can be the difference at the viewer's point? I mean we already modified the gamma on the TV to 2.4.
this just fixed crushed blacks. without really touching the gamma curve.

why do a double gamma correction that shouldn't even fix issue like that?

and don't even assume you get the gamma you setup in a TV. without calibration and a meter you don't know what you get and you can assume you have more of an S curve gamma than anything else.

for a dark room you should aim at 2.4 anyway.

Last edited by huhn; 11th November 2015 at 22:35.
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Old 11th November 2015, 16:32   #34212  |  Link
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I have a Samsung S24D390HL display which has a AD-PSL. The panel is not able to support 8-bit colors natively. It does 6-bit + FRC from what I read.

What am I supposed to choose under "Device->*->Properties->The native display bitdepth is? 6-bit I guess? If this is the case. Isn't there a conflict between madVR's dithering (which obviously is better) and that FRC dithering the monitor does automatically? I also guess I'm not able to deactivate the latter?
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Old 11th November 2015, 16:34   #34213  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Murmeltier View Post
I have a Samsung S24D390HL display which has a AD-PSL. The panel is not able to support 8-bit colors natively. It does 6-bit + FRC from what I read.

What am I supposed to choose under "Device->*->Properties->The native display bitdepth is? 6-bit I guess? If this is the case. Isn't there a conflict between madVR's dithering (which obviously is better) and that FRC dithering the monitor does automatically? I also guess I'm not able to deactivate the latter?
Pick whatever looks better to you. It depends on the quality of the dithering algorithm in the screen, really.
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Old 11th November 2015, 20:08   #34214  |  Link
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I have an HP Stream 7 tablet that I very seldom use. This weekend, though, I'll be watching a couple of movies on it. The processor is an Atom Z3775G quad-core, and the unit runs 32-bit Win 8.1. I can run MPC-HC using QuickSync for decoding, and madVR works at the default settings (looks pretty good, too). Being a tweaker, though, I won't be satisfied until I see how far I can push this chip.

Assuming I can only make a few settings changes in madVR until I start dropping frames, what changes are likely to give me the most improvement with the least cost? The screen is 1280 x 800 and the movies I'll be watching are SD. Doubling is probably out of the question, so what else should I try to tweak?
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Old 11th November 2015, 21:23   #34215  |  Link
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With some old interlaced DVDs I now have some repeated frames (no drops) while using smooth motion since madVR recently introduced automatic switching to DXVA scaling for both chroma and luma when deinterlacing. Does this mean it's a NVIDIA driver bug or still a madVR one?
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Old 11th November 2015, 22:16   #34216  |  Link
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I have an HP Stream 7 tablet that I very seldom use. This weekend, though, I'll be watching a couple of movies on it. The processor is an Atom Z3775G quad-core, and the unit runs 32-bit Win 8.1. I can run MPC-HC using QuickSync for decoding, and madVR works at the default settings (looks pretty good, too). Being a tweaker, though, I won't be satisfied until I see how far I can push this chip.

Assuming I can only make a few settings changes in madVR until I start dropping frames, what changes are likely to give me the most improvement with the least cost? The screen is 1280 x 800 and the movies I'll be watching are SD. Doubling is probably out of the question, so what else should I try to tweak?
I think DXVA2 is better than quicksync. Use that instead.

Smooth motion is really good, and is probably going to give you the biggest boost if your monitor doesn't support 24fps. The jump from SD->1280x800 isn't too big, so jinc AR for luma is probably sufficient and not too different from what doubling would produce. I don't think you can run SuperRes, but if you can, that's the next thing to try turning on. Use bicubic75 AR or jinc3 AR for chroma if you can afford it.

Checking on 10 bit image/chroma buffer in trade performance for quality is unlikely to result in any visible difference. Those would be worth using for you as well. Disable linear light for dithering is also fine, but I'd leave linear light on for smooth motion because it makes a big difference there.

Ordered dithering is great, and you should use it since it's better than all the alternatives for you.

Debanding can help immensely for sources with banding (obviously), but can cost a bit. Depends if you think your videos need it.
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Old 11th November 2015, 23:21   #34217  |  Link
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All I want is some screenshots that show that running SuperRes after every 2x upscaling looks better than running it only once. That's all. No ground truth needed.
Your wish is my command: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/150162

All pictures as a .zip file, using .13 with sxbr25+GL SR(St4/Sh2/R0.66), no other refinement was checked and I didn't try LL. Dithering was disabled.
The cleaner edges provide smoother motion, kinda dreaming of 4X SR now tbh and SuperSampling too while we're at it

New GPU's will be out soon and I'd happily use them for outrageous SS SR.

Last edited by leeperry; 11th November 2015 at 23:47.
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Old 12th November 2015, 00:06   #34218  |  Link
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Hi all,

I'm experiencing a strange v-sync issue with madVR.

In a two monitors setup if I have one or more applications open that use madVR after a random amount of time I start experiencing loss of v-sync in other applications.
To restore v-sync I have to minimize or close all the instances of the applications that use madVR.
Then, if I reopen some application that use madVR, after some time it happens again.

I clearly experience image tearing with applications like VMware Workstation, Outlook 2010 and VLC.
Strangely applications that use madVR aren't affected.

Below more details.

OS
The most important thing that I observed is that this started to happen just after upgrading a few weeks ago from Windows 8 N to Windows 8.1 N, both x64.
On Windows 8 I had installed the Media Feature Pack but on Windows 8.1 I hoped to do without it so it isn't installed.

GPU
I have a GTX 680.
I currently am on driver 358.50, but I tried various previous versions with no luck.
I changed some settings in the Nvidia control panel but this didn't help either.

Monitors
Initially I had one monitor connected via DisplayPort and the other via DVI (digital dual link).
Now they are both on DVI but it doesn't help.

Both monitors are 1920x1200 @ 60 Hz.
Nvidia control panel shows 60 Hz, Windows says 59 Hz and madVR something like 59.95 Hz.
From what I understand this is normal.

If I use only one monitor there are no v-sync issues.

It doesn't seem to matter on which monitor the applications are shown.

Software
I'm pretty sure the issue is triggered by madVR because it happens if I have open instances of DVBViewer Pro and/or MPC-HC, both 32 bit and using madVR.
Also I tried VMR 7 and 9 with apparently no issues.
I can't try EVR because I'm on an N edition of Windows.
I'm on madVR 0.89.16.
Again I tried different settings and versions of madVR without finding a solution.

I also tried using another video decoder instead of LAV Video (32-bit, v0.66) but the issue remains so I really think that this is triggered by madVR.

I looked at madVR's OSD both when the issue is present and when it isn't and I couldn't see any relevant difference in stats to get a hint about what's causing the issue.



At this point I really think the only things that I could try are to install the Media Feature Pack for Windows 8.1 or get another GPU.
I'm not too fond of the first option because I'd like to keep my system as lean as possible.
And I'm quite satisfied with my GTX 680.

If anybody has any suggestion or wild guesses it would be really appreciated, thanks.
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Old 12th November 2015, 00:12   #34219  |  Link
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Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
I think DXVA2 is better than quicksync. Use that instead.

Smooth motion is really good, and is probably going to give you the biggest boost if your monitor doesn't support 24fps. The jump from SD->1280x800 isn't too big, so jinc AR for luma is probably sufficient and not too different from what doubling would produce. I don't think you can run SuperRes, but if you can, that's the next thing to try turning on. Use bicubic75 AR or jinc3 AR for chroma if you can afford it.

Checking on 10 bit image/chroma buffer in trade performance for quality is unlikely to result in any visible difference. Those would be worth using for you as well. Disable linear light for dithering is also fine, but I'd leave linear light on for smooth motion because it makes a big difference there.

Ordered dithering is great, and you should use it since it's better than all the alternatives for you.

Debanding can help immensely for sources with banding (obviously), but can cost a bit. Depends if you think your videos need it.
Tried your suggestions, and the only setting that pushed the GPU over the edge was jinc for luma. Had to stick with lanczos. Smooth motion On seems to produce the most visible improvement.

Thanks for the advice.
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Old 12th November 2015, 01:42   #34220  |  Link
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@mcn

try overlay mode may fix the issue.
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