Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 15th October 2018, 12:57   #53241  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 10,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
EDIT: also I forgot we needed D3D11 to get 10bits without FSE, that's probably why I'm using it
This only requires madVR in D3D11 presentation mode, it has nothing to do with how the decoder operates.

There is only a few things that the decoder mode influences:

- CPU-only madVR algorithms (black bar detection, and maybe others?), does not work with DXVA2 Native or D3D11 Native
- Deinterlacing, doesn't work with D3D11 Native only.

Everything works with Software decoding or DXVA2/D3D11 Copy-Back (because copy-back looks like software decoding to a renderer). And between those last two, DXVA2 Copy-Back is usually preferable because its more efficient, unless you need D3D11 to access a headless GPU.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 12:57   #53242  |  Link
mytbyte
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
you'll get a crushed desktop in this config though so web and youtube and other stuff will be crushed too wont it?
Correct, anything that outputs full range is crushed, just confirmed on my LG HDMI monitor.
mytbyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 13:00   #53243  |  Link
mclingo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,348
I see, I'm a one stop shopper myself, minimal setup, I dont like having to change TV preset based on content. I will test it for myself though.

cheers


Please move this discussion to here from herein, its blocking MADVR issues.

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=175769
__________________
LG OLED EF950-YAM RX-V685-RYZEN 3600 - 16GBRAM - WIN10 RX 5700 - https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions
mclingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 13:01   #53244  |  Link
iSeries
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 625
Well that's your choice, but I'm not going to settle for crushed near-black just because I don't want to press a button on the remote ;-) Like I said, I only use it as a HTPC (Kodi DSplayer also), so I never even really see the desktop. Kodi DSplayer is set to 16-235, as is MadVR, GPU to 0-255, TV to 16-235. All levels are correct, no near-black crush.

LGs simply do better when working limited range.

Last edited by iSeries; 15th October 2018 at 13:05.
iSeries is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 13:03   #53245  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
or you use 1-255.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 13:08   #53246  |  Link
iSeries
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 625
Yes, that's also an option. As is raising the TV brightness one notch. But both those options raises everything, whereas the only difference between limited>full>limited and full>full>full is that first near-black shade which is crushed with the latter. All other shades above that are at equal brightness (measured with meter).

No idea if that would be detrimental to the TVs HDR tonemapping as well. For sure, the advice is to not touch any of the default settings on the TV for HDR as it messes up the tonemapping.

Last edited by iSeries; 15th October 2018 at 13:12.
iSeries is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 13:25   #53247  |  Link
j82k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 155
Complete 0-255 chain vs MadVR at 16-235, GPU at 0-255, and TV at low doesn't make a difference on my C8.

Tested in a pitch black room using the linked and other black clipping test pattern.

Also it would have really surprised me if it made a difference regarding near-blacks/black crush.
j82k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 13:34   #53248  |  Link
Manni
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 942
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
This only requires madVR in D3D11 presentation mode, it has nothing to do with how the decoder operates.

There is only a few things that the decoder mode influences:

- CPU-only madVR algorithms (black bar detection, and maybe others?), does not work with DXVA2 Native or D3D11 Native
- Deinterlacing, doesn't work with D3D11 Native only.

Everything works with Software decoding or DXVA2/D3D11 Copy-Back (because copy-back looks like software decoding to a renderer). And between those last two, DXVA2 Copy-Back is usually preferable because its more efficient, unless you need D3D11 to access a headless GPU.
Thanks, that clarifies everything. I'll compare DXVA2 CB and D3D11 CB, although I'm often using Teamviewer to control the HTPC without having to switch the PJ on or switch inputs on my 4K monitor, so if that's what you call headless GPU I'll probably need D3D11.
__________________
Win11 Pro x64 b23H2
Ryzen 5950X@4.5Ghz 32Gb@3600 Zotac 3090 24Gb 551.33
madVR/LAV/jRiver/MyMovies/CMC
Denon X8500HA>HD Fury VRRoom>TCL 55C805K
Manni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 13:40   #53249  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7,903
no it's not headless. native would fail if you use your whole system headless.
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 13:57   #53250  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 10,342
The primary GPU is always available through DXVA2-CB as well, thanks to D3D9Ex. Just any secondary fully headless GPUs would not be.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 14:10   #53251  |  Link
Manni
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 942
OK thanks. Only one GPU here anyway.
__________________
Win11 Pro x64 b23H2
Ryzen 5950X@4.5Ghz 32Gb@3600 Zotac 3090 24Gb 551.33
madVR/LAV/jRiver/MyMovies/CMC
Denon X8500HA>HD Fury VRRoom>TCL 55C805K
Manni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 14:22   #53252  |  Link
iSeries
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by j82k View Post
Complete 0-255 chain vs MadVR at 16-235, GPU at 0-255, and TV at low doesn't make a difference on my C8.

Tested in a pitch black room using the linked and other black clipping test pattern.

Also it would have really surprised me if it made a difference regarding near-blacks/black crush.
Maybe LG changed something in 2018, but I can assure you LG TVs have shown the same thing going back ten years lol. Remember to test, brightness has to be at default 50. The black square one is really the best way to set brightness
iSeries is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 14:38   #53253  |  Link
mclingo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,348
i'll have a look tonight on my ageing EF950 OLED
__________________
LG OLED EF950-YAM RX-V685-RYZEN 3600 - 16GBRAM - WIN10 RX 5700 - https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR/old-versions
mclingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 16:42   #53254  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,351
For me I have to set madvr to 16-235, GPU full, and TV low to get the proper levels on my C8. So no, IMO, it has not changed in the 2018 models. Default brightness of 50. I can only claim this to be my experience.
__________________
HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED

Last edited by SamuriHL; 15th October 2018 at 16:49.
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 17:01   #53255  |  Link
austonrush
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by austonrush View Post
Hey Guys, I've got a repeated frames glitch when starting a video file. The audio plays in the background but, the video portion initially freezes. This started after the latest windows 10 and nvidia upgrade, never had it before. It can freeze for up to 10 seconds sometimes. Anyone else seeing this? It is not exclusive to any one video.

https://imgur.com/a/t8eGSZZ on average it repeats about 900 frames before the video kicks in.
I was able to isolate this to a LAV hardware decoder d3d11 issue. It only occurs when the display switches herz before playback ie. 60hz to 23hz etc. If I'm already at 23hz and start the video it works without any presentation glitches. If I switch to DXVA2 copyback everything works as it should. This has only been an issue since I upgraded windows 10 to the latest build.
austonrush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 18:09   #53256  |  Link
Warner306
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytbyte View Post
I'm not technical enough to understand the BT.2390 paper in full, and can't quite grasp how the rolloff algorithm works (for 200 cd/m2 max brightness on a comp monitor, the 70% I measured as being way too high, 80-100 are flat i.e clipped in the graph (probably depends on MaxL of content and mastering monitor etc). But, everything under 50% (95 nits) is more-less following the PQ curve at all times so there should be no major black crush from MadVR's tone map curve (note: I'm doing HDR->SDR)
Something is lost in translation when going from HDR -> SDR.

If the target nits is higher than the display's actual brightness, you are only getting a ratio of the original curve.

Example: 480 target nits shown at 200 actual nits

480 nits is the lowest value of BT.2390 where the soft knee (where compression begins) is above reference white (100 nits). Lower values will place the soft knee lower and lower and compress at least some of the first 100 nits. The lower the target nits, the more reference white is compressed.

Approximate display brightness for reference white for 480 target nits at 200 actual nits:

4.8 ratio of target nits/reference white — 480/100 = 4.8 — at 200 actual display nits — puts an untouched diffuse white at close to 42 nits — 200/4.8 = 42 nits

In current test builds, if the content is below 480 nits, clipping is selected for as long as possible. This helps improve the brightness of content that is above the soft knee up to the set target nits, and even above the target nits, by eliminating the compression curve and reducing it as much as possible up to the peak brightness of the source.

Approximate brightness of 470 nits actual scene peak at 200 display nits with clipping enabled:

2.4 ratio of target nits/display nits — 480/200 = 2.4 — at 200 actual display nits — puts 470 nits at close to 196 nits — 470/2.4 = 196 nits

Clipping is always predictable because it is the ratio of the target nits/display nits. BT.2390 is only predictable up to the soft knee. After the soft knee, the entire range is compressed and will change depending on the brightness of the scene.

You would actually lose less brightness by outputting in PQ (HDR Output) to an HDR display because the target nits and display nits should match.

The gamma curve mismatch means this scale is not exact, but it is a general guide to actual brightness output.

Last edited by Warner306; 16th October 2018 at 15:48.
Warner306 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 18:48   #53257  |  Link
VoodooNBGD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1
Hi all,

Does someone know if chroma upscaling in madVR works in one or two steps, when presentation resolution is larger than luma plane resolution?

For example, I have a H264 video in 1280x720 pixels (4:2:0 color with progressive scan). So, when I play it on a 1080p display, does madVR:

1. First upscales chroma from 640x360 to luma plane resolution (1280x720) using selected chroma upscale algorithm
2. Combines 1280x720 luma with upscaled chroma
3. Upscales the resulting picture to 1080p using selected image upscale algo

OR

1. Directly upscales chroma from 640x360 to desired presentation resolution (1080p) using selected chroma upscale algo
2. Upscales luma from 1280x720 to 1080p using selected image upscale algo
3. Combines both images to presentation picture

Thanks!
VoodooNBGD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 19:47   #53258  |  Link
Siso
Soul Seeker
 
Siso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 711
Is reduce compression artifacts needed when upscaling 1080p encodes to 2560x1080p? I was thinking using it with NGU Sharp - medium at strength 1.
Siso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 19:51   #53259  |  Link
Betroz
Is this for real?
 
Betroz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Norway
Posts: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
report back what you get.

Which movie player are you using?
I am using MPC-HC, and yes of course I have set MadVr as video renderer

With these settings, both black level tests posted here show black crush :

- GPU set to Full RGB and 0-255 in Nvidia settings
- MadVr set to 0-255
- TV set to :

Black level HIGH
Gamma 2.2
Brightness 49
OLED light 50

Now the Windows desktop is brighter since I have the TV set to High in Black Level, and as I said the test pattern is very dark. I can't see all the boxes.
Edit : Small update here : I have increased my TV brightness to 53, and now I pass the THX Optimizer test image for brightness. Image here : https://ibb.co/dfZPLf
Edit 2 :The opening scene in Star Wars the last Jedi when you see the scrolling text over the dark sky with stars, with TV Black level set to Low, the black is perfect black. With Black Level set to High, black is not pitch black anymore. All this confirms my previous testing. So...

We can take this discussion in the other tread (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=175769&page=6) I can post this there aswell.
__________________
My HTPC : i9 10900K | nVidia RTX 4070 Super | TV : Samsung 75Q9FN QLED

Last edited by Betroz; 15th October 2018 at 20:26.
Betroz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2018, 20:07   #53260  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siso View Post
Is reduce compression artifacts needed when upscaling 1080p encodes to 2560x1080p.
Needed? No. Is it beneficial for your content? Maybe. You'll have to compare for yourself. There are no wrong options here.
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.