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Old 11th July 2019, 03:47   #56821  |  Link
Asmodian
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Originally Posted by jasonwc18 View Post
What about for native 10 bit sources (4K HDR Blu-Rays)? That was my concern. I assumed it wouldn't matter for 8 bit content.
Even for 10 bit sources. As soon as you send the video to madVR it is converted to 16 bit data (4:2:0 YCbCr -> RGB). During final presentation madVR dithers this to anything from 1 to 10 bit, as configured. The lower the bit depth the higher the noise. The difference between well dithered 8 and 10 bit output is basically undetectable, the increased noise is very subtle. Try comparing 6 bit to 8 bit output to see a stronger version of the effect. 6 bit compared to 8 bit is many times more significant than 8 bit compared to 10 bit but it is still pretty subtle. Dithering is remarkably powerful, another interesting test is to set madVR to 4 bit output and compare ordered dithering to dithering disabled.

It is different for lossily compressed content (e.g. everything we watch), this is because the dithering cannot be completely preserved by the lossy compression. 10 bit is important for HDR blurays on the disc, just not when we are watching them.

Some displays actually look worse when given 10 bit data, even when they do support 10 bit (e.g. LG C7). This is because the internal video processing handles 10 bit worse than 8 bit. Try a blind test, at best most people have to make special test patterns to tell if 10 bit is really working... if you cannot tell whether or not it is working why care if it is?

Use 10 bit if you can and your display supports it properly, it is theoretically better, but do not make any sacrifices to get 10 bit. Also make sure to test it and decide what looks better to you, 10 bit could be worse.
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:53   #56822  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Even for 10 bit sources. As soon as you send the video to madVR it is converted to 16 bit data (4:2:0 YCbCr -> RGB). During final presentation madVR dithers this to anything from 1 to 10 bit, as configured. The lower the bit depth the higher the noise. The difference between well dithered 8 and 10 bit output is basically undetectable, the increased noise is very subtle. Try comparing 6 bit to 8 bit output to see a stronger version of the effect. 6 bit compared to 8 bit is many times more significant than 8 bit compared to 10 bit but it is still pretty subtle. Dithering is remarkably powerful, another interesting test is to set madVR to 4 bit output and compare ordered dithering to dithering disabled.

It is different for lossily compressed content (e.g. everything we watch), this is because the dithering cannot be completely preserved by the lossy compression. 10 bit is important for HDR blurays on the disc, just not when we are watching them.

Some displays actually look worse when given 10 bit data, even when they do support 10 bit (e.g. LG C7). This is because the internal video processing handles 10 bit worse than 8 bit. Try a blind test, at best most people have to make special test patterns to tell if 10 bit is really working... if you cannot tell whether or not it is working why care if it is?

Use 10 bit if you can and your display supports it properly, it is theoretically better, but do not make any sacrifices to get 10 bit. Also make sure to test it and decide what looks better to you, 10 bit could be worse.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I know that a lot of regular Blu-Rays have noticeable banding, whereas the same sources in 10 bit 4K Blu-Ray do not suffer the same banding. I didn't realize this was a result of compression rather than the bit depth of the raw output.

Moreover, I am likely in a similar situation given that I'll be watching HDR content on an LG OLED with the same video processing issue. In contrast, my JVC RS600 will handle 12 bit color just fine, but it's not bright enough to really enjoy HDR.

If I understand your post correctly, I should tell madvr to dither to 8 bit so that the NVIDIA driver doesn't do any further dithering to convert it to output in 8 bit?

Last edited by jasonwc18; 11th July 2019 at 03:59.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:07   #56823  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jasonwc18 View Post
If I understand your post correctly, I should tell madvr to dither to 8 bit so that the NVIDIA driver doesn't do any further dithering to convert it to output in 8 bit?
Good point. Definitely. Double dithering will have higher noise and I like madVR's dithering more.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:13   #56824  |  Link
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Yup exactly that. The less the driver does to the output on the way to the display the better.

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Old 12th July 2019, 03:37   #56825  |  Link
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Played around with the numbers under the setting "apply target dynamic nits selection", and no matter what I changed, I just felt the brightness was lacking and the picture looked a bit dull. eventually, I unchecked it, voila!!! About 20~30% more brightness and the picture looked great! In theory, should I leave it checked or unchecked? I prefer the latter. Thank you!

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Old 12th July 2019, 12:49   #56826  |  Link
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Leave it unchecked if you prefer brightness over everything else. The tradeoff is that you will clip the specular highlights as they appear. It is HDR. You need contrast to make it look accurate.

Lowering the dynamic tuning value will cause the targets to be lower and the image will get brighter as a result. But it won't be as bright as using the static display peak you entered.
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Old 12th July 2019, 12:58   #56827  |  Link
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Given light of the banding issues introduced in windows 10 beyond 1607, have you guys gone back and retested those oleds ? maybe it's window's problem.
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Old 12th July 2019, 20:59   #56828  |  Link
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Dunno bout the issues with earlier versions but MS is investigating the banding issues reported with 1903. Once that's fixed and maybe some conclusive evidence on the cause of various latency issues I'll update.
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Old 12th July 2019, 21:08   #56829  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Given light of the banding issues introduced in windows 10 beyond 1607
It wasn't just beyond 1607, it was on 1903 specifically and the OLED testing was not done with 1903 but with 1803 or 1809, or earlier.

Do you know about a banding issue other than the one introduced in 1903?

Edit: I did compare Windowed Overlay with FSE and Fullscreen Windowed on my C7 when I first got it, on 1703 I believe, and they all showed the same banding. Windowed Overlay bypasses the current issue on 1903 so I don't think the banding issues on the C7 (or C9) were caused by Windows. Windows has a new issue which adds some new banding but LG's OLEDs do have some banding on their own. The 10 bit issues on the C7 are worse and manifested when switching between 8 and 10 bit Windowed Fullscreen (or FSE) so also do not seem like they could have been related to the current banding issue.
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Old 12th July 2019, 22:56   #56830  |  Link
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It wasn't just beyond 1607, it was on 1903 specifically and the OLED testing was not done with 1903 but with 1803 or 1809, or earlier.

Do you know about a banding issue other than the one introduced in 1903?
That's exactly what I'm talking about, apparently dithering is disabled on nvidia by default. This caused banding issues with people who used monitor corrections.

They've figured out how to enable the dithering, but only unreliably in all versions POST 1607.

So it's either 1607 or Windows 7 for permanently enabling dithering.

How does this affect Madvr, or does it affect Madvr, I Don't Know.

https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/to...th-windows-os/
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Old 12th July 2019, 23:14   #56831  |  Link
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That does not impact madVR at all, Nvidia should not be dithering when using madVR. This is what were were just discussing above.

Edit: I was using the TV's two point white balance and madVR's 3DLUT for all color correction. I also tested with the TV's color correction disabled, just to see if it was to blame, but that had no impact on the banding. I have been unable to get good results with an ICC profile for a while, it might have been after 1603 to be honest but I hadn't connected it to the dithering.
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Old 13th July 2019, 03:15   #56832  |  Link
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PC monitors that allow 10 bit input get usually a very good score on rtings while TV doesn't have anything close to that including LCD here. OLED just got more known for this issue because they even produce some banding with 8 bit input which is rare on LCDs.

banding with 10 bit output is a common issue on TVs it's sad because we know from gaming monitors which have very similar tech it is possible to get really good results. which is even more funny because games usually don't dither so they end up with banding anyway.
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Old 13th July 2019, 20:38   #56833  |  Link
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The dithering is only an issue if you are using an ICC Profile, correct?
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Old 13th July 2019, 21:08   #56834  |  Link
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Correct
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Old 14th July 2019, 16:56   #56835  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
some conclusive evidence on the cause of various latency issues
Do you refer to the ntoskrnl latency spikes in 1903 or something else?
I have these spikes higher than everything Iīve seen in the net, once up to 60 ms (yes, ms not ĩs) and since 1903 I have often repeated frames (letīs say 5-10 during one movie) when I had zero all the time in 1809. Sometimes no drops or repeats, sometimes repeats and the audio clock goes wacky, sometimes a repeat followed by a drop in a short time and so both numbers rising slowly, sometimes 50 drops and/or repeats at once, sometimes presentation glitches. Absolutely none of these symptoms in 1809.
I never had problems with Windows updates, so I simply applied them. So this time. And of course the Windows.old folder doesnīt exist anymore...
Of course I donīt know if my problems really have to do with the latency problems.
Maybe it has to do with Windows clocks. Since 1809 the default clock is a 10 MHz clock. I used HPET before and it worked, now it is almost a guarantee for my described problems, so to speak the propability for appearing is much more higher than using the default clock.
Sometimes the audio clock ('clock deviation' in madVR OSD) jumps to a different value during playback and stays there, sometimes this repeats multiple times during playback. Normally I have a value in the region of -0.00220%. Then a repeat is shown and the clock jumps to a different value, letīs say -0.00310%. And this is not only shown, it is really the case: The drop/repeat time is adapted and to the predicted time a repeat occurs (shown in OSD and really the case).
The video clock doesnīt seem to be affected, this is always stable.
All of these problems can not be solved by any madVR settings (rendering settings). I have custom resolutions which are 'perfect'. The problems also show up with smooth motion.
Different GPU drivers donīt change anything. It is not dependant on GPU load. I have two audio devices (PCI card and onboard sound), no change. I tried many things, nothing worked. The culprit really seems to be the 1903 Windows update in my case.
Itīs a wonder to me that nobody else reported problems in this thread here. Maybe I am in the minority of people that made this mistake to upgrade to 1903?
So Iīd like to warn from updating to 1903! The first time I had problems with such an update and I regret this step the first time.
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Old 14th July 2019, 18:23   #56836  |  Link
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I thought Windows 8.1 was the preferred HTPC OS for madVR. What do you need Windows 10 for?
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Old 14th July 2019, 20:06   #56837  |  Link
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Can't we get past that question already?
Some reasons:
- some people don't have a dedicated HTPC but still want to use madVR, and Windows 8 means being stuck in the past when it comes to general purpose computing (also the UI is awful but that's just an opinion)
- newer hardware isn't always supported on/optimized for Windows 8
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Old 14th July 2019, 23:51   #56838  |  Link
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Is there any kind of development for madVR going on at the moment?
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Old 15th July 2019, 00:09   #56839  |  Link
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madshi is currently working on the Envy. For the very moment work seems to have stopped on the HDR builds but he did say he'll get back to them soonish. I suspect getting the Envy launched is quite time consuming.
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Old 15th July 2019, 01:37   #56840  |  Link
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- some people don't have a dedicated HTPC but still want to use madVR, and Windows 8 means being stuck in the past when it comes to general purpose computing (also the UI is awful but that's just an opinion)
OpenShell makes them pretty much the same, and I did say HTPC OS in my post. I didn't say all around general purpose OS that you also use for media playback.
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- newer hardware isn't always supported on/optimized for Windows 8
Unless I missed something they use the same drivers.
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