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Old 11th March 2019, 04:06   #1  |  Link
maxkill
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Help with increasing gamma on 3dlut file

Hello, I found a 3dlut for HDR material that might be good but the picture is too dark. If I choose passthrough HDR to display without 3dlut the picture looks completely washed out.

Anyway, I installed the DisplayCal and the other color thing you needed both seem to be freeware, so what now?

I got the 3dlut files, a couple different, some compatible some not. I also got some ICM files that I tried to create 3dlut files from but they were not compatible. I could not figure out how to EDIT the 3dlut files already created.

Please I know this is not optimal you should measure your screen but please help, I need the picture and the blacks to brighten up a bit what is the easiest way to do this through the program?

this is the dark picture i get atm with current HDR 3dlut: https://imgur.com/E9TBJpc
https://imgur.com/72lVmaD

Last edited by maxkill; 12th March 2019 at 00:53. Reason: icm not icc
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Old 11th March 2019, 05:48   #2  |  Link
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madVR can do the "same" thing as a synthetic 3d LUT in real time by simply not sending meta data not using pass through. the of a benefit of HDR SDR 3D LUT is that it cost less processing power.
as always there are exception to the rule.

calibration is a complicated topic so there is no easy way.
to get a relatively brighter image you need to lower the target nits.

you need to load the 3DLUT maker shipped with dispalycal.
there the sources needs to be BT 2020 ST2084 10000 CM/m²
your tone curve "needs" to be ST 2084 (roll off)
now you come to the place where you select the "brightness" or gamma if you want to call it even through it clearly isn't gamma by setting the target peak CM/m² lower is "brighter" image try 200.

now you need to know your target (your TV gamut and stuff like this which a meter would read) i just assume BT 709 here so you need to load a synthetic BT 709 icm which can be created in displaycal directly.

the 3D LUT format needs to be madVR and convert HDR to SDR.

or you just as a reminder you let madVR do it in real time.
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Old 11th March 2019, 23:33   #3  |  Link
maxkill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
madVR can do the "same" thing as a synthetic 3d LUT in real time by simply not sending meta data not using pass through. the of a benefit of HDR SDR 3D LUT is that it cost less processing power.
as always there are exception to the rule.

calibration is a complicated topic so there is no easy way.
to get a relatively brighter image you need to lower the target nits.

you need to load the 3DLUT maker shipped with dispalycal.
there the sources needs to be BT 2020 ST2084 10000 CM/m²
your tone curve "needs" to be ST 2084 (roll off)
now you come to the place where you select the "brightness" or gamma if you want to call it even through it clearly isn't gamma by setting the target peak CM/m² lower is "brighter" image try 200.

now you need to know your target (your TV gamut and stuff like this which a meter would read) i just assume BT 709 here so you need to load a synthetic BT 709 icm which can be created in displaycal directly.

the 3D LUT format needs to be madVR and convert HDR to SDR.

or you just as a reminder you let madVR do it in real time.
Thanks for the help!
I managed to create a new 3dlut by using the icm from a 65 lg oled I found. I set the settings similar to what you said but in the DisplayCAL program and changed to SDR like you said then it worked for HDR thank god. I then changed the target peak luminance and lowered this drastically which gave me the brightness I wanted on the first try lol.

I was testing full rgb 8bpc which is the fullest color range I can get at 30hz but I was getting a small but noticable stutter from time to time in panning scenes so I think this is more disturbing than not having it.

However the good news is I can now use the HDR file I was going to use in 30hz for 60hz my normal setting, and I must say I think it looks better than my old 3dlut for HDR.
The problem is few of the UHD movies or 2160p files I have actually switch to this HDR 3dlut so then if the material don't support it defaults to the normal one in my guide. I like that old 3dlut too although I found a third 3d lut that also looks good for non-HDR passthrough UHD 2160p material (I now have 2 for non hdr and one for hdr). Haven't quite decided which one of these I like best yet.
Any way to get more 2160p material use the HDR mode by the way, kind of sucks less than half of the files can use the full HDR 3dlut imo.

So, the comparisons are the HDR successfull passthrough using the newly created 3dlut with brighter image AND the non HDR 3dlut that is the second one not the one in my guide. I had to lower gamma to 1.8 on this non HDR passthrough 3dlut file to get good brightness I think.

Here are the comparisons:
HDR 3dlut scene 1
https://ibb.co/r5BxK6Q

NON HDR 3dlut scene 1
https://ibb.co/pX1jYZj
---
HDR 3dlut scene 2
https://ibb.co/WFKqPjR

NON HDR 3dlut scene 2
https://ibb.co/p2dPTyh

And as a bonus just a HDR passthrough no 3dlut
https://ibb.co/GWmdnLK

I dunno know I think the HDR one looks more dynamic and colorful than the non HDR. The just passthrough one looks dull as hell to me lol. So looks way better with 3dlut imo.

Any oppinions suggestions? Any way to fix the slight stutter in 30hz using this 3dlut? I tried disabling all settings still the slight stutter, and if I enable smooth motion (along with my smooth picture settings lol) the stutter goes away but then the whole image looks even worse because I guess the player fills out the missing frames or whatever with blur.

edit; also add schindlers list HDR 3dlut https://ibb.co/cNzvKCg non HDR 3dlut https://ibb.co/qMJzTCC I think I got the names on these 2 wrong so don't mind the names, should be in right place
(slightly brighter is HDR, it is also a larger file)

Last edited by maxkill; 12th March 2019 at 00:52.
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Old 12th March 2019, 00:36   #4  |  Link
huhn
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you should really stop comparing apples with oranges.
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Old 12th March 2019, 00:54   #5  |  Link
maxkill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
you should really stop comparing apples with oranges.
Noted. Could you answer the other qs please?

Also, I'm getting slightly too dark shadows, how do I fix this to brighten up the shadows and prevent crushed blacks?

Is this the setting?
https://imgur.com/4wDzajz

Last edited by maxkill; 12th March 2019 at 01:20.
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Old 12th March 2019, 01:37   #6  |  Link
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I was testing full rgb 8bpc which is the fullest color range I can get at 30hz but I was getting a small but noticable stutter from time to time in panning scenes so I think this is more disturbing than not having it.
you talk about 30 HZ a here and stutter from time to time which well why are you even using 30?

you should frame rate match to avoid judder that means 23p for 23p content.
i have to do so many ifs here so if your source is the usually 23p and and you set your display to 30 you will get heavy judder.

i have no clue why you just take a random number like 30HZ here.

Quote:
However the good news is I can now use the HDR file I was going to use in 30hz for 60hz my normal setting, and I must say I think it looks better than my old 3dlut for HDR.
The problem is few of the UHD movies or 2160p files I have actually switch to this HDR 3dlut so then if the material don't support it defaults to the normal one in my guide. I like that old 3dlut too although I found a third 3d lut that also looks good for non-HDR passthrough UHD 2160p material (I now have 2 for non hdr and one for hdr). Haven't quite decided which one of these I like best yet.
Any way to get more 2160p material use the HDR mode by the way, kind of sucks less than half of the files can use the full HDR 3dlut imo.
this make no sense you can use an SDR 3D LUT for HDR too and i have no way what you load where and why.

there is absolutely no point in taking none synthetic 3D LUT from somewhere these things have meta data and all kind of things can go wrong.

if a file is correctly created as HDR and you have a matching HDR -> SDR it will be used and not some other ones.

Quote:
Also, I'm getting slightly too dark shadows, how do I fix this to brighten up the shadows and prevent crushed blacks?
you fix black crush by calibrating it: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

if your screen clips black level try to fix it with custom levels.

Quote:
Is this the setting?
https://imgur.com/4wDzajz
that a test pattern creator it's useless without a meter.
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Old 12th March 2019, 02:11   #7  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
you talk about 30 HZ a here and stutter from time to time which well why are you even using 30?

you should frame rate match to avoid judder that means 23p for 23p content.
i have to do so many ifs here so if your source is the usually 23p and and you set your display to 30 you will get heavy judder.

i have no clue why you just take a random number like 30HZ here.
Relax the 30hz is default when putting tv to deep color.
I also tested other hz like 23 and 24 still no success. Good to know about matching framrate thanks bro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
this make no sense you can use an SDR 3D LUT for HDR too and i have no way what you load where and why.
I'm using the HDR to SDR 3dlut file this is the one I refer to as the HDR 3dlut file. The other non-3dlut file does not work in HDR section, only in calibration section (as seen in my guide).

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
there is absolutely no point in taking none synthetic 3D LUT from somewhere these things have meta data and all kind of things can go wrong.

if a file is correctly created as HDR and you have a matching HDR -> SDR it will be used and not some other ones.
Umm, well, that is not entirely correct Sir. I get the HDR 3dlut to work for a lot of 2160p content even files about 12gb. But for example Oblivion a 45gb UHD file does not work with the HDR 3dlut. Same thing for Alien Covenant. I know this because I can set gamma level and it changes the brightess which you can never do if HDR mode is enabled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
you fix black crush by calibrating it: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

if your screen clips black level try to fix it with custom levels.
Okey you mean only calibrating your contrast outside of the player huh. Well, the 3dlut I use that is not HDR seems to do just fine on the black levels which is why I'm asking. I get no crushed blacks on that one but on the HDR I think I get some (even though picture still looks good). No setting to change in the DisplayCAL the greyscale or what have you before creating the 3dlut then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
that a test pattern creator it's useless without a meter.
Great thanks.
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Old 12th March 2019, 03:00   #8  |  Link
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[QUOTE=maxkill;1868488]Relax the 30hz is default when putting tv to deep color.
I also tested other hz like 23 and 24 still no success. Good to know about matching framrate thanks bro.


I'm using the HDR to SDR 3dlut file this is the one I refer to as the HDR 3dlut file. The other non-3dlut file does not work in HDR section, only in calibration section (as seen in my guide).


Quote:
Umm, well, that is not entirely correct Sir. I get the HDR 3dlut to work for a lot of 2160p content even files about 12gb. But for example Oblivion a 45gb UHD file does not work with the HDR 3dlut. Same thing for Alien Covenant. I know this because I can set gamma level and it changes the brightess which you can never do if HDR mode is enabled.
i don't know why you think file size or resolution mean the file is HDR and has correct HDR meta data if it has correct meta data it will use the 3D LUT.

Quote:
Okey you mean only calibrating your contrast outside of the player huh. Well, the 3dlut I use that is not HDR seems to do just fine on the black levels which is why I'm asking. I get no crushed blacks on that one but on the HDR I think I get some (even though picture still looks good). No setting to change in the DisplayCAL the greyscale or what have you before creating the 3dlut then?
you can get all kinds of issue by using just random profile or 3D LUT.
you are just creating issues nothing more.
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Old 12th March 2019, 03:12   #9  |  Link
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Out of curiosity, which LG OLED do you have? How long have you had it?

You do not want to use a 3D LUT for HDR -> HDR, mainly because a 3D LUT is static. So, that leaves you with two options: pass-through HDR or pixel shader. HDR -> SDR. I have an LG C7, and I currently still use pass-through, partly because my GTX 960 is not powerful enough to do pixel shader math (with the test builds), and also because pass-through is able to use the full brightness of the display. I do use 3D LUTs for SDR, though.

In my experience, these OLEDs need very few tweaks out of the box. Most importantly, find the correct brightness setting for your panel. In my case, this was 51 for both SDR and HDR. You can verify this by using an all black test pattern in a dark room. Lower the brightness below 50 first, then raise it one by one until the panel starts to show the faintest glow. Then lower brightness by one. That's the correct setting. If you want to tweak it further, go into the 20-point white-balance setting, find 5% adjustment, and raise its luminance setting by a bit. Best to do that while looking at a brightness pattern in a dark room.

Make sure you're in Technicolor Expert mode for SDR and HDR, Cinema (not Cinema Home) for Dolby Vision. For SDR, raise OLED light to your liking, if you feel default is too dark. I'm in a dark room, and mine is set to 45, for example. Leave contrast at defaults. Turn off any energy saving features. Leave gamut at AUTO, unless you use a proper 3D LUT made for your panel

On the LG, set Black Level to HIGH. Set video driver to 8-bit RGB Full for all frequency combos, due to increased banding on OLEDs with 12-bit. Set madVR display properties to 8-bit for SDR, Auto for HDR (due to a bug it's best to create two profiles at the moment, using the (bitdepth) trigger). Set LAV video filters to use D3D11 (Automatic), everything else at defaults.

Make sure your TV actually goes into HDR mode when watching HDR content. If you don't see the logo in the upper right hand corner, you know something's wrong. That's pretty much it. Your picture shouldn't look dark or washed out at all.

Hope that helps. And please don't use random 3D LUTs!
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Old 12th March 2019, 16:48   #10  |  Link
maxkill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VBB View Post
Out of curiosity, which LG OLED do you have? How long have you had it?

You do not want to use a 3D LUT for HDR -> HDR, mainly because a 3D LUT is static. So, that leaves you with two options: pass-through HDR or pixel shader. HDR -> SDR. I have an LG C7, and I currently still use pass-through, partly because my GTX 960 is not powerful enough to do pixel shader math (with the test builds), and also because pass-through is able to use the full brightness of the display. I do use 3D LUTs for SDR, though.

In my experience, these OLEDs need very few tweaks out of the box. Most importantly, find the correct brightness setting for your panel. In my case, this was 51 for both SDR and HDR. You can verify this by using an all black test pattern in a dark room. Lower the brightness below 50 first, then raise it one by one until the panel starts to show the faintest glow. Then lower brightness by one. That's the correct setting. If you want to tweak it further, go into the 20-point white-balance setting, find 5% adjustment, and raise its luminance setting by a bit. Best to do that while looking at a brightness pattern in a dark room.

Make sure you're in Technicolor Expert mode for SDR and HDR, Cinema (not Cinema Home) for Dolby Vision. For SDR, raise OLED light to your liking, if you feel default is too dark. I'm in a dark room, and mine is set to 45, for example. Leave contrast at defaults. Turn off any energy saving features. Leave gamut at AUTO, unless you use a proper 3D LUT made for your panel

On the LG, set Black Level to HIGH. Set video driver to 8-bit RGB Full for all frequency combos, due to increased banding on OLEDs with 12-bit. Set madVR display properties to 8-bit for SDR, Auto for HDR (due to a bug it's best to create two profiles at the moment, using the (bitdepth) trigger). Set LAV video filters to use D3D11 (Automatic), everything else at defaults.

Make sure your TV actually goes into HDR mode when watching HDR content. If you don't see the logo in the upper right hand corner, you know something's wrong. That's pretty much it. Your picture shouldn't look dark or washed out at all.

Hope that helps. And please don't use random 3D LUTs!
I got the 04.70.85 software version
Lg tv is oled55c7v
Had it for about 5 months or somethin.

It won't show any HDR on the tv, tv might flash or change brightness a bit not sure.

If I choose tonemap HDR using pixel shaders I won't see any difference from 'let madvr decide' option (which basically means off option). Not sure what's going on here.
I changed the settings to 23hz and full rgb 8bpc just to verify and deep color on as I'm testing this.

If in 23hz actually can see all the shades on that test image perfectly, go figure. I'll test your instructions at some point too.

I've been using technicolor bright room setting but also tried the technicolor expert however the settings is in USER mode not cinema like you say, how do I change this?
I have the tv in PC icon.

I asked this in another thread got no answer about LAV Video, I don't have the LAV Video? I only use MadVR and LAV Audio in external filters, what LAV Video setting are you talking about where do I find this setting?

Can you send me the pixel shader files and your 3d lut bro, I'd love to test them!
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Old 12th March 2019, 16:56   #11  |  Link
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i don't know why you think file size or resolution mean the file is HDR and has correct HDR meta data if it has correct meta data it will use the 3D LUT.
Copy that. I understand what you mean. Guess a lot of 2160p files even large UHD blurays aint HDR files then that's why. I tried your suggestion about the matching hz and seems to not lagg in a lot of movies now actually. I had to put the 2160p23 setting in the
'display modes' under devices and that made it work, the screen then is in 23hz. I had tried this before but maybe I did something wrong or some bug no idea, so seems to work now then suprisingly thanks man.
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Old 12th March 2019, 18:56   #12  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxkill View Post
I got the 04.70.85 software version
Lg tv is oled55c7v
Had it for about 5 months or somethin.

It won't show any HDR on the tv, tv might flash or change brightness a bit not sure.

If I choose tonemap HDR using pixel shaders I won't see any difference from 'let madvr decide' option (which basically means off option). Not sure what's going on here.
I changed the settings to 23hz and full rgb 8bpc just to verify and deep color on as I'm testing this.

If in 23hz actually can see all the shades on that test image perfectly, go figure. I'll test your instructions at some point too.

I've been using technicolor bright room setting but also tried the technicolor expert however the settings is in USER mode not cinema like you say, how do I change this?
I have the tv in PC icon.

I asked this in another thread got no answer about LAV Video, I don't have the LAV Video? I only use MadVR and LAV Audio in external filters, what LAV Video setting are you talking about where do I find this setting?

Can you send me the pixel shader files and your 3d lut bro, I'd love to test them!
If madVR doesn't switch the TV into HDR mode, that would explain your washed out picture. Make sure that madVR -> display -> properties -> bit-depth is set to either Auto or 10-bit. Otherwise the display will not switch into HDR mode. Also make sure that "send HDR metadata to the display" is checked in whatever mode you'd like madVR to use.

Which media player software do you use? I recommend MPC-HC with built-in LAV filters, for simplicity. If you don't see LAV Video used during playback, that could be part of your problem.

Either Technicolor Expert mode should be fine for SDR/HDR. For Dolby Vision it will say "Cinema (User)". Another thing to keep in mind: If you use the LG in PC mode to get 4:4:4, that only applies to 60Hz.
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Old 12th March 2019, 23:42   #13  |  Link
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Originally Posted by VBB View Post
If madVR doesn't switch the TV into HDR mode, that would explain your washed out picture. Make sure that madVR -> display -> properties -> bit-depth is set to either Auto or 10-bit. Otherwise the display will not switch into HDR mode. Also make sure that "send HDR metadata to the display" is checked in whatever mode you'd like madVR to use.

Which media player software do you use? I recommend MPC-HC with built-in LAV filters, for simplicity. If you don't see LAV Video used during playback, that could be part of your problem.

Either Technicolor Expert mode should be fine for SDR/HDR. For Dolby Vision it will say "Cinema (User)". Another thing to keep in mind: If you use the LG in PC mode to get 4:4:4, that only applies to 60Hz.
Hey man, cool. I got the bitdepth to auto and tried send metadata still no HDR text on tv.

mpc-hc MadVR only for video. Why would I need the LAV Video though is what I'm wondering about, this is completely unknown to me? Should I install LAV Video too and why do I need it??

Yeah this might be the reason!

I dunno should I change from PC mode? I run 23hz now only for movies I thought I was only gonna do 60hz but since lagg now gone and colors look nice I will do 23hz.

I switched from technicolor bright to technicolor expert as suggested and chose some settings in this one I think look very good (with the 3d lut I have in original guide for smoother 4k image).

Do you use 3dlut I see you also have the same screen if you could upload yours so I can see if it looks as good as mine?
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Old 13th March 2019, 01:55   #14  |  Link
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So wait, you're still using the LUT, which means you're not doing pass-through. That's why the TV is not switching, most likely. Forget about using a LUT for HDR. Set madVR to HDR pass-through + send metadata, and try again.

MPC-HC has LAV built in, so you should be good to go. You might want to disable any external filters, just in case. Check for LAV settings in the MPC-HC filter section.

And no, I do not use a LUT for HDR.
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Old 13th March 2019, 03:21   #15  |  Link
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So wait, you're still using the LUT, which means you're not doing pass-through. That's why the TV is not switching, most likely. Forget about using a LUT for HDR. Set madVR to HDR pass-through + send metadata, and try again.

MPC-HC has LAV built in, so you should be good to go. You might want to disable any external filters, just in case. Check for LAV settings in the MPC-HC filter section.

And no, I do not use a LUT for HDR.
Nono I tried this setting already without the 3dlut, same thing. I discovered that about the HDR 3dlut although it might enhance details in dark scenes it made things look too bright in bright scenes and my eyes hurt. Am however using my original 3dlut now which works great with the new settings especially.
This has nothing to do with the true HDR mode though, not even sure if it's better but would be nice to try it.
I can not set this D3D11 option you still haven't told me where I can find this .. And also what about the file I asked about (not HDR)?
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