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Old 21st December 2010, 00:27   #1  |  Link
IceFiend
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Typical dvd media lifespan

Let's say I buy 100 Taiyo Yuden, Verbatim, and Sony Dvd+R discs. I burn them at 8x speed. All discs pass write verification at burn. I store them in dark closet.


I come back 2, 4 and 8 years later. How many bad discs per 100 do I find each time?
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Old 21st December 2010, 09:25   #2  |  Link
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Well, tell us!
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Old 21st December 2010, 10:03   #3  |  Link
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Here is the PlexTools PI/PO scan of one of my oldest DVD-Rs:



Looks pretty much the same as 6 years ago when I burned it, the error rate being as low as it can be. I have always used good quality Verbatim disks.

By the way, the write verification doesn't tell you anything about the qualtity of a burn.
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Old 21st December 2010, 10:51   #4  |  Link
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By the way, the write verification doesn't tell you anything about the quality of a burn.
It does. The freshly burnt DVDR can be read back. Believe me, I've seen people and read in fora too, that directly obtain coasters. It happened once to me too, when burning a DVDR DL with a new burner.

People not having access to testing tools can at least spend 6 minutes of their live (those 6 minutes they gained using 24x instead of 8x ) to check the recorded DVDR.

I agree, it does not disclose the degree of quality, it's just an ON/OFF test.
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Old 21st December 2010, 11:01   #5  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Ghitulescu View Post
It does. The freshly burnt DVDR can be read back. Believe me, I've seen people and read in fora too, that directly obtain coasters. It happened once to me too, when burning a DVDR DL with a new burner.

People not having access to testing tools can at least spend 6 minutes of their live (those 6 minutes they gained using 24x instead of 8x ) to check the recorded DVDR.

I agree, it does not disclose the degree of quality, it's just an ON/OFF test.
Maybe I should have been clearer - The verification after a burn is pretty much mandatory in my opinion. However, if the quality at the time of the burn is already borderline it's quite possible that after a year or so the disk may not be readable any more.
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Old 21st December 2010, 13:25   #6  |  Link
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So if they have a good initial quality they should last 5+ years?
It's good to know that. I've read about dye blurring, I was not aware that was due to initial weak burns.
I had thought if you burned at a low speed, you were pretty much at the mercy of dye life, which in some cases seems to be grossly overestimated.

So far the oldest confirmed quality I could find was someone on another forum stating that his Pioneer dvds from 2003 still worked like new. Lots of RiTek corpses along the way, even some Memorex and Sony, which is what drew my initial concern.
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Old 21st December 2010, 14:08   #7  |  Link
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I'm afraid there are no longer good DVDRs nowadays. I own some CDRs that are some 12 years old but still yield lower C1/C2 than a brand new CDR burnt yesterday. The DVD technology is close to its end, no manufacturers spend time and energy for producing quality items ... yes, not even Verbatim.
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Old 21st December 2010, 15:01   #8  |  Link
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Guess it's time to buy a nice 1tb external HD and dump all my discs on it then.
Up until a few weeks ago I thought dvds were a safe storage medium(moreso than an external hdd). I too have 10+ year old CDRs that work flawlessly, and pressed cds from the early 80s.

At least I still have good data to pull, so it could have been a lot worse. More an inconvenience at this point.
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Old 21st December 2010, 18:35   #9  |  Link
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Originally Posted by IceFiend View Post
Guess it's time to buy a nice 1tb external HD and dump all my discs on it then.
Up until a few weeks ago I thought dvds were a safe storage medium(moreso than an external hdd). I too have 10+ year old CDRs that work flawlessly, and pressed cds from the early 80s.

At least I still have good data to pull, so it could have been a lot worse. More an inconvenience at this point.
If you're going to store your data on a HD you better have it mirrored at least once. If the HD dies all of the data is gone.

The Verbatims I buy (yes, also the most recent ones) are of excellent quality and I never had a problem with them. Every 2 years or so I do a spot check on some disks with PlexTools which so far has not revealed any aging problems.

It's up to you but I think optical media is still the best option for long term storage - if done properly.
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Old 21st December 2010, 19:46   #10  |  Link
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It's up to you but I think optical media is still the best option for long term storage - if done properly.
Aside from quality media, burning device and lowish speeds, what else would that be?
Storage is all that comes to mind. No sun is the main thing I've heard. Along with vertical storage. Though I just throw them back on the spindle.
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Old 21st December 2010, 22:43   #11  |  Link
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Aside from quality media, burning device and lowish speeds, what else would that be?
Storage is all that comes to mind. No sun is the main thing I've heard.
Avoid extreme temperatures, yes.

I check the quality of every burn with PlexTools. If the error rate is too high for my taste I throw the disk out (rarely happens).

If you don't have a Plextor drive there are other programs like KProbe and CDSpeed2000. You just have to make sure that your drive is supported by those programs.
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Old 16th January 2011, 14:09   #12  |  Link
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I'm afraid there are no longer good DVDRs nowadays. I own some CDRs that are some 12 years old but still yield lower C1/C2 than a brand new CDR burnt yesterday. The DVD technology is close to its end, no manufacturers spend time and energy for producing quality items ... yes, not even Verbatim.
Well, I've been using Verbatim for a long time, generally using Pioneer burners, and if the disc is being burned just for backup storage (and I can't imagine too many other reasons for using a disc these days) I always run a quality check on it.
Given I'm still burning at the same quality level I was two years ago, where's the quality deterioration in the Verbatim discs I bought today, because I'm not seeing any.

IceFiend,
Burning speed and burn quality aren't necessarily directly related. It depends on the type of dye used on the disc and how well your particular burner burns to that dye. Burners adjust their burning strategy according to the type of dye etc.
In my case..... Pioneer burners and Verbatim discs.... my old 16x Pioneer burners produce the best quality (on average) at 12x. Lower than that and the quality tends to drop a little. The newer 18x and 20x Pioneer burners seem to produce the best quality burns (on average) at 16x.

If you store the discs upright (not stacked), only use CD markers and avoid labels which need to be glued to the disc, and if you store them in a cool, dry place, and if the burn quality was reasonable to begin with, then a good quality disc such as Verbatim should be readable for a long, long time.

I'd take any anecdotal stories regarding lower C1/C2 errors on older discs with a grain of salt until they come fully qualified with information such as whether a different burner is being used today, whether the brand of discs is still the same and whether the discs still use the same dye.

Running a verification test after a burn doesn't give you much idea as to the quality. Unless you want to sit there and watch the whole verification process to ensure the drive doesn't slow done in order to read the disc it just burned... but if you can't verify the quality accurately it's probably slightly better than no test at all.
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Old 16th January 2011, 16:01   #13  |  Link
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I used some days ago a TY (4x) from my premium collection. It was really a joy of senses to feel it in hand, unlike the new DVDRs I use for regular work.

Concerning "stories" with lower C1/C2 - it doesn't matter which burner did the recording when assessing the quality afterwards - it performed bad or well at the time of the burning. Lower C1/C2/jitter/TA assure the logevity of a CDR (DVDR), provided the dye would also play with and the conditions are appropriate. These value won't change because one just bought another recorder - it's like saying that the old car will suddenly start consuming 15 l/100km (instead of 8) the day you bought a new car. That is the power of quality standards, to make things comparable, things that otherwise are not.
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Old 21st January 2011, 02:37   #14  |  Link
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Originally Posted by IceFiend
Guess it's time to buy a nice 1tb external HD and dump all my discs on it then.
I've already switched to 2TB SATA drives in "hot swap" enclosures and moved my files from four 128-disk organizers onto two drives. I paid about as much for each drive as it cost for the blank disks that filled them.
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Old 21st January 2011, 17:51   #15  |  Link
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Concerning "stories" with lower C1/C2 - it doesn't matter which burner did the recording when assessing the quality afterwards - it performed bad or well at the time of the burning.
My point exactly. Just because 35 years ago you burned a batch of perfect CDs and today your burns aren't as good, how can you say it's because they're not making media to the same quality today unless there's no other variables? i.e. You're still using the same burner with exactly the same brand of blanks.

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Lower C1/C2/jitter/TA assure the logevity of a CDR (DVDR), provided the dye would also play with and the conditions are appropriate. These value won't change because one just bought another recorder
Well I think you'll find you're the one who said the values have changed.
"I own some CDRs that are some 12 years old but still yield lower C1/C2 than a brand new CDR burnt yesterday."
So have the values changed, or haven't they?

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- it's like saying that the old car will suddenly start consuming 15 l/100km (instead of 8) the day you bought a new car.
No it's like saying you got 15l/100km from your old car, expecting to get 15l/100km from your new car, and when you don't you claim the quality of the fuel must have changed.

I've tried TY discs a few times before and failed to see what all the fuss is about. It's not that they're poor quality by any means, but on average, I get slightly better quality burns using Verbatim discs.
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Old 21st January 2011, 18:04   #16  |  Link
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My point exactly. Just because 35 years ago you burned a batch of perfect CDs and today your burns aren't as good, how can you say it's because they're not making media to the same quality today unless there's no other variables? i.e. You're still using the same burner with exactly the same brand of blanks.
3 issues here
1. comparison - for this matter there's C1/C2/etc. parameters.
2. aging - the dye will get older on virgin CD/DVDs, too
3. the art of burning is the fine tuning of burners to media
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"I own some CDRs that are some 12 years old but still yield lower C1/C2 than a brand new CDR burnt yesterday."
So have the values changed, or haven't they?
The values changed due to aging, however:
1. their values (12 years ago) were better than the same values, measured with the same Plextools and the same drive.
2. they are still better than some freshly burned CDs (I do them for car, so I don't really care)
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I've tried TY discs a few times before and failed to see what all the fuss is about. It's not that they're poor quality by any means, but on average, I get slightly better quality burns using Verbatim discs.
Well, most people do actually, Verbatim is quite cheap in comparison to TY and therefore the burning strategies are tuned to cheaper disks. I obtain better results with an LG and cheaper DVDs than with the Plextor and Verbatim (MIT). When Verbatim will change completely to Indian ware (MII) it won't make any difference.

However TYs (DVD-R) from my premium collection are still "almost perfectly" burned by the first full-featured Plextor burner (716).
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Old 22nd January 2011, 09:45   #17  |  Link
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You're obviously still missing/ignoring my point/questions as to whether today's discs are the same brand and being burned by same burner, and I'm not sure even if you're using the same burner how you can be sure it's burning to to same quality it was when you first bought it, but later on I'll grab a few older, poor quality media, or maybe some better media which was burned using a lower quality burner than I use today, run some burn quality tests and then return to announce I've proved the quality of blank media has improved in the last few years.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 14:57   #18  |  Link
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You're obviously still missing/ignoring my point/questions as to whether today's discs are the same brand and being burned by same burner, and I'm not sure even if you're using the same burner how you can be sure it's burning to to same quality it was when you first bought it, but later on I'll grab a few older, poor quality media, or maybe some better media which was burned using a lower quality burner than I use today, run some burn quality tests and then return to announce I've proved the quality of blank media has improved in the last few years.
Is this one phrase? Wow ....

I don't know where did you spend the last years of your life before joining doom9. I'd rather prefer not to know .

Each product is like the humans, at first is a child, then an adult, much later an "old timer", finally it's dead. One cannot compare a CDR of 1997 with a CDR of 2011. The only 1x or 2x speed CDRs are the Audio CDRs (the expensive ones). Nobody still manufactures CD-Recorders, so these are stocks. The red laser lasts for 2000-200 hours (according to the power), this lets you burn a theoretical maximum of 500-1000 CDRs.

What you insist to compare is the sound of a Pathéphone with that of an LP.

C1/C2 and so on, and similar parameters for other media, serve to help people make a comparizon between 2 incomparable entities.

I am not sure why do you do what you do:
1. you like to contradict people
2. you wanna learn yourself in a clever way: by forcing the people to respond to your own questions, disguised as statements, knowing that people that know the answer cannot stand that the newbie, which owns the thread you "infested", might get the wrong answer, served by someone pretending to be an authority in the matter.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 16:35   #19  |  Link
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Is this one phrase? Wow ....

I don't know where did you spend the last years of your life before joining doom9. I'd rather prefer not to know .
It's called reality. Maybe take a holiday there at some stage to see if you like it.

Quote:
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What you insist to compare is the sound of a Pathéphone with that of an LP.
C1/C2 and so on, and similar parameters for other media, serve to help people make a comparizon between 2 incomparable entities.
I'm not insisting on comparing anything. YOU made the comparison when you stated that new media is not as good a quality as older media, not me.
Yes products have a lifespan, but you've still not offered anything to show that sometime recently Verbatim decided the CD/DVD blank was coming to the end of it's life and therefore decided to let their quality control drop, or use a lower quality manufacturing process, or whatever it is you think has caused the quality of their media to drop.
Bluray disc burning might be becoming more common place, but I'd not be surprised if DVD burning is currently at it's peak.

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I am not sure why do you do what you do:
1. you like to contradict people
2. you wanna learn yourself in a clever way: by forcing the people to respond to your own questions, disguised as statements, knowing that people that know the answer cannot stand that the newbie, which owns the thread you "infested", might get the wrong answer, served by someone pretending to be an authority in the matter.
I just ask questions when someone posts something which common sense tells me probably isn't correct, and often when it's not, after several posts of trying to pretend they're answering the question, the person who originally wrote it will then resort to the sort of dribble you just posted.
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Old 22nd January 2011, 17:43   #20  |  Link
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What kind of incertitude brings my statement to the innocent poster?

Statement: The CD media of 2011 is worse than the CD media of 1997, the CD recording part of DVD/BD is worse than the CD recorders of 10 years ago (a CD recorder of 1985 is still the reference recorder; with AMQR of Yamaha ended an era); the DVD media of 2000 were better than any DVD of today (with maybe the exception of JVC, maybe, because this medium is not officially launched in Germany, it may be found in online-shops, though - I haven't checked it).

Corolar (to be on topic): better media not only age slower, but also have a higher "reserve" ahead.

Anyone involve in CD/DVD media in the past 10 years should have noticed this. It happened the same to VHS gear/media (peak quality inthe 90ies) and audio CC.

One can contest both statements (not very likely) but that one cannot by anyway led into confusion.
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