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Old 25th October 2009, 00:23   #1  |  Link
jsevakis
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x264 for BD encoding - does it work now?

I've been pouring over the forums and it seems like there's been quite a bit of progress lately in adding BD compliance to x264.

From what I can gather, a compliant stream needs both --slices:4 (in the svn since early September) and --hal-nrd (patch available for some time, being worked into the SVN now). Is this accurate?

If so, has anyone released a binary with both of these features activated? Have the results been tested for replication? (BD is a bit of a mess, since authoring successfully doesn't necessarily mean it'll replicate OK.)

Any assistance would be really helpful. If replication hasn't been tested yet, I can get some test encodes submitted to a plant to find out.
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Old 25th October 2009, 00:23   #2  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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I'm still waiting for some BD-verifier results from a contact of mine...
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Old 25th October 2009, 00:26   #3  |  Link
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Awesome. Can I anticipate some noise being made when it passes?

I can't wait to put this into use. The encoder built into the new version of Compressor is... acceptable, but really chokes on noisy sources. Everything else is way out of my price range. T_T
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Old 25th October 2009, 01:32   #4  |  Link
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Originally Posted by jsevakis View Post
I can't wait to put this into use. The encoder built into the new version of Compressor is... acceptable, but really chokes on noisy sources. Everything else is way out of my price range.
There's a Quicktime component for x264, but I don't believe that the newer options like slices and the such are supported since it uses ffmpeg as a backend. The cli binary does have all the options, but you wouldn't be able to use Compressor with it. I can compile a binary of the latest git sources if you want.

jsevakis... is this for ImaginAsian or personal use?
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Old 25th October 2009, 01:52   #5  |  Link
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lol, ImaginAsian is not even a company anymore. I work for Anime News Network, but I also do freelance DVD/BD authoring on the side. But even if it doesn't replicate successfully yet, I have a few personal projects I can put it to work on.

I don't need to use it with Compressor; honestly I'd be thrilled if I can use it as a CLI on either Intel Mac or Windows. I guess Windows would come in handier, since I could feed it AVIsynth sources, but the Mac version would really come in handy too. (I'm stuck with XP, so multithreading is not gonna go all that fast for me on the Windows side.) I'd be most grateful for either one.

Last edited by jsevakis; 25th October 2009 at 02:00.
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Old 26th October 2009, 02:01   #6  |  Link
benwaggoner
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I can't wait to put this into use. The encoder built into the new version of Compressor is... acceptable, but really chokes on noisy sources. Everything else is way out of my price range. T_T
I don't believe that's it's a new H.264 implementation, just Apple's standard (meh) implementation with the correct defaults for BD compliance.

Among other things, MPEG-2 is still required for interlaced coding.
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Old 26th October 2009, 13:14   #7  |  Link
jsevakis
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Among other things, MPEG-2 is still required for interlaced coding.
That's... not true. I just made an interlaced .264 file with it, and TSMuxer confirms it as 1080i. Haven't plugged it into authoring yet, but it appears OK.

Agreed that it's a meh h.264 implementation at best, tho.
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Old 25th October 2009, 02:04   #8  |  Link
shon3i
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I'm still waiting for some BD-verifier results from a contact of mine...
Did Scenarist not good enough? since check everything in stream including possible underflows in stream tought mux, btw i see many streams extracted from original blu-ray that not pass scenarist check or mux.

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If so, has anyone released a binary with both of these features activated? Have the results been tested for replication? (BD is a bit of a mess, since authoring successfully doesn't necessarily mean it'll replicate OK.)
Here is builds for you http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...postcount=2526, use patched bulds.

Last edited by shon3i; 25th October 2009 at 02:08.
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Old 25th October 2009, 02:11   #9  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Did Scenarist not good enough? since check everything in stream including possible underflows in stream tought mux, btw i see many streams extracted from original blu-ray that not pass scenarist check or mux.
Does the latest patch from Alex Giladi work? Trahald says that Alex's patch is much better and that we should get that one into git, not his.

Last edited by Dark Shikari; 25th October 2009 at 02:13.
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Old 25th October 2009, 02:17   #10  |  Link
shon3i
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Does the latest patch from Alex Giladi work? Trahald says that Alex's patch is much better and that we should get that one into git, not his.
No , but i test only two builds posted here i don't know is there maybe newer since then. I tested many times and both scenarist and elecard reject stream, second time is more strange. If you want to do something about that i will test if need. Even Trahald last rev19 crashes x264 if --keyint 24 is set, with --keyint 48 work fine.
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Old 25th October 2009, 09:32   #11  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
Does the latest patch from Alex Giladi work?
Thahald wrote this on the mailing-list about the last version of the patch by Alex Giladi :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trahald
I think your x264_vbv_fullness() routine is broken. initial cpb removal delay is holding negative values. it is what is causing elecard to reject the stream.

Last edited by Underground78; 25th October 2009 at 11:07.
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Old 25th October 2009, 10:56   #12  |  Link
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Did Scenarist not good enough? since check everything in stream including possible underflows in stream tought mux, btw i see many streams extracted from original blu-ray that not pass scenarist check or mux.
Scenarist check is minimal (mainly: level, slices, buffer). I've tested it with "bad streams" end they were improted with no problems. You need verifier to test encoder for BD compliancy (the best one is Sony).

This is preaty impossible- extracted streams have to import and mux (even if BDs were created with Blu-print). It means there is something wrong with extracting.
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Old 25th October 2009, 15:09   #13  |  Link
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Originally Posted by kolak
Scenarist check is minimal (mainly: level, slices, buffer). I've tested it with "bad streams" end they were improted with no problems. You need verifier to test encoder for BD compliancy (the best one is Sony).
I agree, but scenarist wont mux stream out of specs that is key thing, i don't care if stream is broken itself, that should be done by encoder, like DTS verifier after encoding. The key thing is that stream contain 100% compilacy parameters. btw did this Sony BD verifyer is avaible in public? as demo/trial or something? or with some app like Blu print?

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Originally Posted by kolak
This is preaty impossible- extracted streams have to import and mux (even if BDs were created with Blu-print). It means there is something wrong with extracting.
I am not sure, because i just demux streams with several applications, and results are same. The problem is in muxing stage, and always at same place. I read from other users, and somebody notice that one stream have much higher buffer than should > 30000.
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Old 25th October 2009, 18:27   #14  |  Link
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I agree, but scenarist wont mux stream out of specs that is key thing, i don't care if stream is broken itself, that should be done by encoder, like DTS verifier after encoding. The key thing is that stream contain 100% compilacy parameters. btw did this Sony BD verifyer is avaible in public? as demo/trial or something? or with some app like Blu print?
Muxing is one thing- there are many more restricions and rules- seamless connetion in playlists, multiangel, etc. Scenarist can produce out of the spec BD discs (evn if seperate assets are BD compliant) and you won't know about it unless you verify the imnage. It either comes to your knowledge or you need to use verifier.

BD verifier is not available in any trial/demo version- as far as I know. You can have trial version of Blu-print, but you need a company which has to go through credit check process.

If you make discs which are replicated in thousands copies, you have to be sure about your software.
If stream from x264 passes one verification it still doen't mean it can be safetly used for commercial use. We would need at least few tests with different settings and options used for encoding.

Andrew

Last edited by kolak; 26th October 2009 at 01:15. Reason: delete OT content
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Old 25th October 2009, 18:32   #15  |  Link
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I am not sure, because i just demux streams with several applications, and results are same. The problem is in muxing stage, and always at same place. I read from other users, and somebody notice that one stream have much higher buffer than should > 30000.
Hmmm- I don't know, but can you explain me how come Scenarist muxed it in the first place than? If it's commercial disc than it was done either with Scenarist BD or with Blu-print-both share exactly the same muxing engine.

There can be possibility that new version had bigger restricions, so some streams may not mux- I don't know.
I don't use 30Mbit for buffer, but slightly less and never had any problems with muxing, even if my assets peaks close to the limit.

Andrew
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Old 26th October 2009, 14:03   #16  |  Link
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From what I can gather, a compliant stream needs both --slices:4 (in the svn since early September) and --hal-nrd (patch available for some time, being worked into the SVN now). Is this accurate?
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I'm still waiting for some BD-verifier results from a contact of mine...
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Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
Does the latest patch from Alex Giladi work? Trahald says that Alex's patch is much better and that we should get that one into git, not his.
Sorry to be a bit ignorant of x264 development and BD-compliance requirements, but can it be expected that an official x264 build incorporating hal-nrd will bring with it true MBAFF interlace encoding (i.e. MB adaptive, not just MBAFF signal syntax) or at least an improvement in interlace encoding efficiency?
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Old 26th October 2009, 18:59   #17  |  Link
Dark Shikari
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Originally Posted by WorBry View Post
Sorry to be a bit ignorant of x264 development and BD-compliance requirements, but can it be expected that an official x264 build incorporating hal-nrd will bring with it true MBAFF interlace encoding (i.e. MB adaptive, not just MBAFF signal syntax) or at least an improvement in interlace encoding efficiency?
Put simply: I am probably turning down over 20-30 thousand dollars by not working on MBAFF.

Maybe it will become something to consider once everything else on my list is done, but with most television channels eventually looking to move to 1080p60, interlacing will eventually be dead anyways.
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Old 26th October 2009, 20:28   #18  |  Link
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.....but with most television channels eventually looking to move to 1080p60, interlacing will eventually be dead anyways.
Hopefully by that time also there will be more (affordable) HD camcorders with 50p/60p recording capability. At present, there are just a few models in the professional lower-price bracket offering native 720/50p and/or 720/60p formats - Panasonic AG-HMC-150/151 and AG-HMC-40/41 (AVCHD) and JVC GY-HM100 (MPEG-2).
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Last edited by WorBry; 26th October 2009 at 20:43.
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Old 26th October 2009, 14:09   #19  |  Link
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I think there is hope for NAL-HRD. But if you want MBAFF in x264, then it won't be cheap:
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...05&postcount=5
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Old 26th October 2009, 15:18   #20  |  Link
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^You're talking to x264 programmers. The same programmers who IMO jumpstarted the whole anti-VFW crusade that still starts flame wars occasionally.

Needless to say, outdated legacy standards like interlacing aren't exactly going to garner much sympathy either. This shouldn't surprise anybody.
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