Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 19th March 2019, 13:29   #55401  |  Link
blu3wh0
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 39
I would say that everything j82k has noted about the LGs has been correct, as I've measured/noticed most of these issues. Unfortunately there is no catch all solution to these problems. PC mode is required for any type of gaming in SDR, general Windows usage, and since the graphics cards operate in RGB 4:4:4 internally (thus madVR), there is reason to use RGB 4:4:4. Movies are not exempt here either if using an HTPC. Game mode in SDR is not worth testing as it provides no calibration options for white point or color, is forced into a wide color space, and do not support 4:4:4. While I can always see the slight banding in SDR on patterns, I rarely if ever see it in games or movies that isn't there in the source. HDMI mode smooths over the gradients, but doesn't really always get rid of the banding either. But then you also get losses from 4:4:4 to 4:2:2. HDMI mode aside from Game also has very bad input lag which can cause audio delays.

The one thing I haven't tested is 12-bit vs 8-bit in HDMI mode for HDR as I'm really hesitant to dither the 10-bit source, but I can't say I have noticed any banding in 12-bit while watching HDR movies. HDR Game Mode is required for HDR games and is very close to Cinema/Technicolor tone mapping without the input lag.
blu3wh0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2019, 13:50   #55402  |  Link
j82k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by thighhighs View Post


When watch movies you use game or desktop modes with 4:4:4 chroma, because 4:4:4 chroma. And reported about bad picture (banding). I miss something?
Yes what you missed is the whole point....
I don't use 4:4:4 modes because of the poor gradation/quantization in these modes.
I was just trying to make others aware of these issues.


Also I've never said that I use game mode. The only time I mentioned it was in relation to figuring out if these issues could be related to modes that offer the lowest possible input lag.

And then you jump in, making some false statements, even telling me which modes/picture presets I should use...

I don't even use my TV for windows tasks, this is just about video content played via madVR.
j82k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2019, 14:37   #55403  |  Link
j82k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by blu3wh0 View Post
The one thing I haven't tested is 12-bit vs 8-bit in HDMI mode for HDR as I'm really hesitant to dither the 10-bit source, but I can't say I have noticed any banding in 12-bit while watching HDR movies. HDR Game Mode is required for HDR games and is very close to Cinema/Technicolor tone mapping without the input lag.
I haven't really watched HDR movies with 12-bit output so not sure how visible this is in content but when checking the 25% saturation HDR color ramps from this pattern package, they look worse with nvidia 12-bit/madVR 10-bit compared to 8-bit. That is in standard HDMI mode.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...terns-set.html
j82k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2019, 15:17   #55404  |  Link
thighhighs
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by j82k View Post
Yes what you missed is the whole point....
I don't use 4:4:4 modes because of the poor gradation/quantization in these modes.
I was just trying to make others aware of these issues.
Yes, i understood you care about setup for yourself. And yes, here i'm wrong I'm some confused, because you talking about bad settings and issues, making some tests and different modes comparisons in custom scenarios, but ignore some starting points from user manual.
Hope no problems.

Last edited by thighhighs; 19th March 2019 at 17:22.
thighhighs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2019, 16:46   #55405  |  Link
svengun
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 50
Maybe it is different for me as my LG OLED is from 2016, but I use Home Theater mode for windows & UHD player. If I put him on PC mode everything looks overly white

I have no problems with HT mode , HDR , MadVR, everything works fine and looks great

Of course Game Mode for Xbox / PS4....

Quote:
Originally Posted by blu3wh0 View Post
I would say that everything j82k has noted about the LGs has been correct, as I've measured/noticed most of these issues. Unfortunately there is no catch all solution to these problems. PC mode is required for any type of gaming in SDR, general Windows usage, and since the graphics cards operate in RGB 4:4:4 internally (thus madVR), there is reason to use RGB 4:4:4. Movies are not exempt here either if using an HTPC. Game mode in SDR is not worth testing as it provides no calibration options for white point or color, is forced into a wide color space, and do not support 4:4:4. While I can always see the slight banding in SDR on patterns, I rarely if ever see it in games or movies that isn't there in the source. HDMI mode smooths over the gradients, but doesn't really always get rid of the banding either. But then you also get losses from 4:4:4 to 4:2:2. HDMI mode aside from Game also has very bad input lag which can cause audio delays.

The one thing I haven't tested is 12-bit vs 8-bit in HDMI mode for HDR as I'm really hesitant to dither the 10-bit source, but I can't say I have noticed any banding in 12-bit while watching HDR movies. HDR Game Mode is required for HDR games and is very close to Cinema/Technicolor tone mapping without the input lag.
__________________
Livingroom: Ryzen 7 1700@3.9ghz - Win Insiders Fast Ring - MSI RTX 2700 Gaming - Philips 65OLED803 | Bedroom Ryzen 3 1200 - Win 8.1 - GTX1060 - LG OLED EG920V 55" > All with MadVR latest test build
svengun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2019, 18:03   #55406  |  Link
blu3wh0
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 39
While I don't want to get much further into this, my statements were dependent on whether the user cares about accuracy in white point, color, etc. with regards to the source and what you expect/can deal with negatives of each option. This also implies you are only using ISF (Cinema/Technicolor for HDR, Game Mode HDR for games) with the expected configuration/calibration. I can't speak to what looks good to someone else as I don't know their settings and sometimes these might not matter much depending on content. However, Game Mode for SDR is absolutely garbage for the reasons listed, but it does have the low input lag needed. I would suggest you try getting PC Mode configured properly for at least games instead (setting your game system/PC to RGB 4:4:4 Full and matching TV settings would get you started).

PC Mode ISF in SDR should look almost exactly the same (not counting 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2, banding, input lag and 23 Hz judder) as HT in ISF using the exact same settings. This means white point, brightness, and contrast should not be any different, so I would make sure Full/Limited is set correctly relative to the GPU settings.

Edit: Sorry, I wrongly assumed you had a 2016 LG B6, I did not even notice the actual TV you have. Anything I said might not actually apply to you at all as I don't know anything about that range of models.

Last edited by blu3wh0; 19th March 2019 at 19:36.
blu3wh0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2019, 22:49   #55407  |  Link
ashlar42
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 652
For all Kodi DSPlayer users, I'm trying to understand whether we could at least salvage madVR for continued Kodi use with updated builds (KDSPlayer being stuck with 17.6 for the foreseeable future).

madshi had something to say about this, three years ago and I am trying to reopen the discussion: https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php...975#pid2835975
ashlar42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2019, 00:19   #55408  |  Link
j82k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 155
I know I previously said all configurations would lead to increased color banding in pc-mode.

But YCbCr444 might actually be ok to use in pc-mode on the LG C8.

At least it seems that way from a few comparison measurements I did and also by looking at the 16-bit gradient pattern. Only tested SDR 8-bit so far.
I know fullRGB should theoretically provide the best results but what can you do when the TV messes it up...



Measurement has been done with the ISF Dark preset, all picture enhancements disabled, oled-light 25 (100nits), 20% pattern intensity as the errors are more visible in the lower luminance range.
The magenta sweep looks very bad in any configuration but with fullRGB PC-mode it's atrocious.
j82k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2019, 00:33   #55409  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,351
Ummmmm, that's pretty whacked. Shouldn't the TV internally be using RGB for everything, as well? If YCbCr444 doesn't produce banding, correct me if I'm off base here, doesn't that signify that the TV *might* be processing everything internally in that format and that receiving RGB and converting it is maybe what's causing the banding? Or am I just being dense here...
__________________
HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2019, 00:35   #55410  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 10,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
Ummmmm, that's pretty whacked. Shouldn't the TV internally be using RGB for everything, as well? If YCbCr444 doesn't produce banding, correct me if I'm off base here, doesn't that signify that the TV *might* be processing everything internally in that format and that receiving RGB and converting it is maybe what's causing the banding? Or am I just being dense here...
Its probably just a really shitty processing chip, or its being configured rather wrong in PC RGB mode.

TVs usually shouldn't have a reason to use YCbCr internally, since the panel is in RGB, and LUT adjustments etc should be done in RGB as well.
But then, manufacturers like to save a few bucks even on a $2000 TV, and you get shit like 4:2:2 subsampling in movie mode. You can't subsample RGB like that, so it has to use YCbCr internally at some point (and even worse, subsampled). Probably just for silly reasons, like the video processor being just bad like that.

I wonder if review sites like rtings.com test 4:4:4 in non-PC mode, or at least check for banding issues in PC mode, I should check one of their latest reviews for such info (Edit: apparently not quite as detailed).
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders

Last edited by nevcairiel; 20th March 2019 at 00:41.
nevcairiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2019, 00:38   #55411  |  Link
SamuriHL
Registered User
 
SamuriHL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,351
Great job, LG! LOL UGH
__________________
HTPC: Windows 11, AMD 5900X, RTX 3080, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303, LG G2 77" OLED
SamuriHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2019, 00:47   #55412  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 706
EITHER.

They got 1 corrected table, and slaps it on all modes, (which) causes the corruption in RGB, as that is the wrong table.

OR

They enable the table for YCbCr and Disable it for Native RGB. __ As in the panel itself is RGB but its response is not entirely linear, thereby exhibiting its raw behavior in RGB mode.

__ This second case is much more likely than the first.
__ That PC mode is likely the raw, uncorrected color response of the oled panel .
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz

Last edited by tp4tissue; 20th March 2019 at 00:50.
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2019, 02:36   #55413  |  Link
tp4tissue
Registered User
 
tp4tissue's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 706
What's the outlook on Madvr Dynamic tone map VS DolbyV..


And how does the dolbyV 12bit moniker work ?

How does their 1080p layer add 2 more bits onto the base layer ?
__________________
Ghetto | 2500k 5Ghz

Last edited by tp4tissue; 20th March 2019 at 02:38.
tp4tissue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2019, 05:58   #55414  |  Link
ryrynz
Registered User
 
ryrynz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,646
Is this really the place to be asking that?
ryrynz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2019, 15:23   #55415  |  Link
Warner306
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,127
Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
What's the outlook on Madvr Dynamic tone map VS DolbyV..


And how does the dolbyV 12bit moniker work ?

How does their 1080p layer add 2 more bits onto the base layer ?
There is no current way to test this. I would assume Dolby Vision would be more subtle compared to any of the dynamic tone mapping solutions for HDR10, but they are both frame-based. The results would be dictated more by the tone mapping algorithm used because frame-based metadata is merely a guide for tone mapping.

Dolby Vision is an independent, second layer, so it could be any bit depth. The extra two bits can lessen banding of the specular highlights when dithered down to 10-bits by providing a better source. That is one notable advantage.
Warner306 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2019, 16:27   #55416  |  Link
kolak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Poland
Posts: 2,843
Madshi or nevcairiel could you comment on this:

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...99#post1867399
kolak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2019, 16:38   #55417  |  Link
j82k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 155
I gotta retract my statement about 23/24 Hz in pc-mode causing 3:2 pulldown judder on the LG C8.
They must have fixed this at one point via firmware update without mentioning it in the update notes.

I used rtings pulldown-judder test and it seems to have proper 5:5 cadence in pc-mode now even without the greyed out real cinema option. I did that same test last year and there would always be judder when outputting 23/24 Hz in pc-mode.


This is how it looks now:



This is how it looks in non-pc mode with real cinema disabled and how it looked in pc-mode when I tested this previously:


So this is good and it means that I'm gonna use pc-mode with ycbcr444 for now... That is until I find some other issue with it.
j82k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2019, 16:52   #55418  |  Link
blu3wh0
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 39
Are you sure you are still in PC Mode when you tested ybcr444? I know that for some configurations (resolution, frequency, format), the LG will throw you out of PC Mode, defaulting to the HDMI processing without actually telling you. 1080p 23Hz I know does this on my B7. You can tell by making sure none of the greyed out options like real cinema return. I haven't actually tried your config since that will still limit me to the limited color range, but may be worth it if it reduces banding while keeping 4:4:4.
blu3wh0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2019, 17:11   #55419  |  Link
iSeries
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 625
I haven't yet got the latest firmware update but for my C8 in PC mode, Real Cinema is greyed out at all refresh rates and it definitely seems to do 3:2 pulldown at 23p. Haven't done a formal test but I did look at end credits which were very choppy vs smooth out of PC mode with Real Cinema enabled.

I thought ycbcr from a PC was considered a poor option? I'm not sure I'd want to use PC mode just for 4:4:4 chroma anyway but then I only use my HTPC for movie playback.

j82k, did you test PC mode with RGB limited>full>limited? I've owned a few LGs and all did better with that chain, especially near-black.
iSeries is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th March 2019, 19:17   #55420  |  Link
brazen1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
For all Kodi DSPlayer users, I'm trying to understand whether we could at least salvage madVR for continued Kodi use with updated builds (KDSPlayer being stuck with 17.6 for the foreseeable future).

madshi had something to say about this, three years ago and I am trying to reopen the discussion: https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php...975#pid2835975
Just use the components (madVR, LAV Filters, a PCF.xml, your choice of any player(s), and an applicable .bat(s) if any) seamlessly with Kodi v.18.2 or any other version now or in the future. I simply install new Kodi builds/versions and leave the rest of the setup in place. Takes about 1 minute to upgrade from 17.1 to 18.2 for instance. I do nightlies everyday. Same with updating any of the other components should you desire to.
__________________
HOW TO-Kodi 2D-3D-UHD (4k) HDR Guide Internal & External Players
W11 Pro 24H2 GTX960-4GB RGB 4:4:4 @Matched Refresh Rates 8,10,12bit
KODI 22 MPC-HC/BE 82" Q90R Denon S720W
brazen1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 22:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.