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31st May 2007, 14:00 | #41 | Link |
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I'm sure people are working on the hardware players, but so far there's not much sign they've been seriously compromised. I suspect the software players will stay in the forefront for quite awhile before the LA begins to worry too much about the hardware players.
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31st May 2007, 15:05 | #42 | Link | |
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What will be interesting to follow, is how good (or how long) BD+ will be able to resist circumvention. I guess we will find out once the "BD+ enabled" disks will arrive. and congrats on the great work done allready Cheers F |
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31st May 2007, 15:24 | #43 | Link | |
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It will be interesting to see the LA's next move. There were lots of people here who could barely contain their eagerness to get hold of new discs with new MKBs. If I was the LA, I might do nothing for a while - at least it would frustrate their "enemy" and they wouldn't get another of those headlines saying AACS was cracked in 30 seconds. |
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31st May 2007, 15:33 | #44 | Link |
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It was mentioned on AVS that the AACS Licence says that MKBs can only be changed once every 90 days. It takes time for the replicators to switch from one MKB to another, and if they had to do this more often they would be a bit frustrated! So 90 days from the 23rd April ( was that the last date ) will be the earliest release of the next MKB.
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31st May 2007, 16:00 | #45 | Link | |
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31st May 2007, 16:26 | #46 | Link | |
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So technically, as early as beginning of July we could see new version of MKB. However.... The earliest MKB v3 was broken would be around May 17th (give or take a few days, but May 22th release date for Matrix was broken, and some people got Matrix boxset early), when AnyDVD HD was updated. So this is the earliest that AACS LA knew that MKB v3 is compromised, and that assumes no time for verifying the claim, technical analysis of the attack, etc. In addition I am not sure if the agreement states "90 days from the last rollover", or "90 days since we notify you". This could have an effect on the street date of the new MKB too. There still haven't been any response from AACS LA on the subject. Last AACS update involved partitioning of the device tree for the software players, which (and FoxDisc will correct me if I misunderstood) currently allowes AACS LA to tell exactly which software player leaked the processing key (Even if we don't know which one it was), since it was the only unrevoked one in the newly partitioned tree. This partitioning was effective in telling which player leaked, but ineffective in preventing the compromise. There is also the possibility that SlySoft is using a different processing key, from a different player, resulting in two compromises (SlySoft is further along in reverse-engineering the updates, since they have the unrevoked private key of a player as well, and can talk to the drive, while we have to do the VID firmware hack). While you can use SKBs to present different decoded signal to different classes of players (and, say, prevent HTPC users from playing back video, or from playing back a radically different version of the video), it's not where the crack in AACS armor is. Software players have holes, and when the OS is not fully controlled and trusted, and as long as the kernel debugger can be used to alter the OS, software players will be the point of attack. At the same time SKBs require engineering time to implement, and master correctly. If there was a hypothetical black box service, where people could provide to an entity a copy of mkbrom.aacs and VID, and out would pop the VUK, then yes, SKBs would be essential. But the processing keys disclosed here are widely known. Why spend time dealing with something that is not the core problem? It is possible that at this point AACS LA will push for dropping support of XP as the OS, and forcing people to use Vista, since Vista likely has better support for prevention of things like this. Microsoft is unlikely to oppose this, since that means more OS license sales for them. At the same time, long term pressure by might be to push for wider adoption of trusted computing modules in hardware and software (and remember that Microsoft is a member of AACS LA and has interest in both BD and HD-DVD, and does dictate to the motherboard manufacturers what to build onto boards). This doesn't have to be a conventional TCM module either. Cyberlink currently supports only a handfull of higher end cards, to which it offloads the processing. At the same time, remember the older copy protection schemes for expensive software, such as AutoCad? Parallel port dongles? We might see video decoding chip with keys that is either on the video card (your video card already does HDCP, why not do AACS as well? Force bus encryption from the drive to the video card for new cards as well, while you are at it) or on a USB (or some other) dongle (again, encrypted signal in, unencrypted signal out.) Various forms of TCM are likely about a year away, if not longer (hopefully longer). Of course, with TCM the problem would change from obtaining the VUK and decoding the data, into convincing the TCP chip that you are an authorised piece of software. Just some ramblings. Take them with a boatload of sea salt. So just to summarise: Problem with AACS is the protection of the players. It's impossible to protect the current generation of software players, since they run on user-controllable and subvertible OS SKBs are not (yet) an answer MKBs will likely roll by middle of August. Last edited by awhitehead; 31st May 2007 at 16:34. |
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31st May 2007, 16:39 | #47 | Link | |
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And consumers have another choice: boycott all this stuff. And most of them entertain this choice right now. And once any "unbreakable", "trusted" form of the "protection" (it protects ME from watching my Purchased stuff on the platform of my choice) is implemented, I'll entertain this choice as well in terms of purchasing their new releases which I will not be able to watch unless I throw close to $10K replacing my perfectly working computers and TVs. Of course it is a technical challenge for them as well as for us. So it is entertaining for now But very poor economical choices for the studios. |
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31st May 2007, 16:40 | #48 | Link | ||
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However, I don't think they really are interested in watermarking. They've used the "poor man" method of traitor tracing - they used a tiny S-D set of only one device, so unless they assigned the same device number to different software, they know where the public Processing Key came from (and the hidden PK Slysoft used if it's not the same). I think the reason they might start using SKs is to break the current software and database schema here and to make it harder to find the multiple VVUKs needed for decryption. If their purpose is to hide those keys, I'd expect them to make short brief usage. Since SK segments eat up disc space 8 times faster than regular data and give an attacker more opportunities to see what's happening, I don't see much reason for longer than minimum segments. Quote:
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31st May 2007, 16:51 | #49 | Link |
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I pretty much agree with all these ramblings. SKBs aren't the answer for the AACS LA. The most they do is add a small additional layer of complexity. Perhaps the LA will find it worthwhile, perhaps not. There will be pressure for trusted computing, but that pressure has been there for a long time. Microsoft would love to see Vista as the sole platform for HD playback, but the software companies will fight that (market too small right now), and probably have contracts that let them sell on other platforms.
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31st May 2007, 17:01 | #50 | Link | |
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Regarding dongles.... It all depends on the marketing. Going back to Cyberlink PowerDVD 7.x - it only works with a handfull of ATI and Nvidea video cards. Consumers still buy and use it. So here I think it could also depend on the marketing. "Buy this 100 USD USB dongle, that has built in VC1 and H.264 compression/decompression chip, and you don't need a 3.2 Ghz Pentium to watch your videos in beautiful smooth 72 frames per second, and your home videos compress 10 times faster for those memories of your baby, and you can do something else on your PC while a video plays in the corner." I mean, people buy this , so what stops them from revving it to have keys in the hardware? It's a matter of engineering and marketing. |
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31st May 2007, 17:03 | #51 | Link |
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I read an analysis by one of the AACS system designers about how to build systems that comply with the AACS license requirements. It was intended for software/hardware guys and he seemed to be saying that the license required more than just trying to prevent cracks, which is what older DVD/CSS licenses required. He seemed to be saying that the AACS license was worded more strictly and required success.
I wonder if the open platform players could end up getting cut off because they could not succeed. |
31st May 2007, 17:13 | #52 | Link | |
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As for the Vista DRM capabilities, it has been demonstrated a few months ago that PVP and assorted kernel-mode technologies can be subverted by the user simply because the Windows devs implemented the backdoors themselves (ironically, often in order to grant Windows Media Player and other MS tools direct access to the OS). |
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31st May 2007, 17:19 | #53 | Link | |
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Can you provide a link? |
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31st May 2007, 17:49 | #54 | Link |
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The point I was trying to make was that this might be one of the few ways they could actually close off the entire "open platform" i.e. software player market despite contracts that have probably been signed between the software companies and the LA. The LA says "You are in breach since you didn't succeed so you get no more Device Keys."
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31st May 2007, 17:56 | #55 | Link | |
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http://www.syncrosoft.com/Jan._25_20...ths-78-86.html Fortunatly this protection wouldnt work that easily with movies.... Anyway keep up the good work, guys... |
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31st May 2007, 18:40 | #56 | Link | |||
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I think this is the one.
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Diogen. |
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31st May 2007, 19:22 | #57 | Link | ||
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Do they have the right to terminate Cyberlink and Intervideo? Would they want to? The studios want to sell discs and at least for now, large file sizes, slow transfer speeds and high blank media costs limit the actual financial impact of any hidef copying. Customers will scream pretty loudly if their software suddenly turns off as the LA cuts off Cyberlink and Intervideo. It looks to me like the LA will keep on struggling by playing the cat and mouse game. There seems to be few other options for them. |
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31st May 2007, 19:40 | #58 | Link | |
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I think the entire PMP thing is an insult to the consumers, plain and simple. Quote from the comments to the article: "As a user of the Windows Home Operating Rights Environment, I must state for the record that all of my transactions with said system are completely clean, and take place using the most effective protection available. If you truly feel that some of your Media exchanges are tainted, I'd suggest it's probably because you didn't pay the requisite PMP fees." |
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31st May 2007, 20:25 | #59 | Link | |
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Same thing happened to the DVD. Sales went up, not down, after CSS was beaten. Though that might be a correlation rather than causality. |
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31st May 2007, 21:43 | #60 | Link | |||
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I think MS and the rest of the gang have different views on this issue. Quote:
The very fact that DVDDecryptor and RipIt4Me were "killed" today when only a lazy can't copy a regular DVD, means that they take it "personally". Hence, I have a hard time to imagine they would let this game continue for long. Quote:
Diogen. |
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