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Old 28th May 2018, 09:38   #51021  |  Link
gfxnow
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
mpc-hc most likely I think, I'd rate mpc-be as the better player though.
Don't know how they compare but yes at least MPC-BE is being actively developed.
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Old 28th May 2018, 21:56   #51022  |  Link
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"hdrOutput" information field

What/where is the "hdrOutput" information field?
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Old 28th May 2018, 22:08   #51023  |  Link
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What/where is the "hdrOutput" information field?
Not implemented yet, it's a mistake in the release notes. It should appear in a future release (in the OSD) and report the active HDR mode (dumb, complex, passthrough etc).
Hopefully it will come along with the variable to select a profile according to max brightness, which is also planned but Madshi ran out of time for both of these.
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Last edited by Manni; 29th May 2018 at 08:32.
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Old 28th May 2018, 22:46   #51024  |  Link
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Speaking of OSD, when using hdr passthrough or process hdr by using pixel shader math, madvr report that it use my BT.2020.SDR.3dlut but toggling 3dlut on/off make no difference.
bug?
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Old 29th May 2018, 00:26   #51025  |  Link
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Originally Posted by sat4all View Post
Speaking of OSD, when using hdr passthrough or process hdr by using pixel shader math, madvr report that it use my BT.2020.SDR.3dlut but toggling 3dlut on/off make no difference.
bug?
Yes bug. The SDR BT2020 3D LUT isn’t used in passthrough even if the OSD reports it active. It’s only a display bug though, so not a biggie. The 3D LUT shouldn’t be enabled in passthrough or process HDR as the display is still involved in the processing. If you want to apply a 3D LUT, use another option.
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Last edited by Manni; 29th May 2018 at 00:30.
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Old 29th May 2018, 12:15   #51026  |  Link
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I am a little confused on what I have achieved after delving into MadVR and KODI Dsplayer.

I only have an old LG 1080P HDTV, mostly 1080p Remux and some 4K Remux movies. I started using MadVR again after finding out that HDR goes to washed out until using the great application and it getting converted from HDR to SDR.

Am I seeing a Placebo effect watching 4K on a 1080P TV ? If the HDR is getting converted to SDR am I missing out on so much I should just stick to 1080P, do I see extra detail or is it Placebo ?

The more posts I read from people that own 4K HDR TVs is that instead of 4K movies differing in the amount of HDR, certain ones being darker, there is a constant battle messing with settings and not every film is the same, but is that not the point ?

The more I read the more it seems to be people upscaling Anime in a lot of the guides you read, and most of the guides seem to point back to old settings not used anymore.

To sum up can High Bitrate 1080P/4K movies look any better than they are, or could you get the same effect by playing with the TV settings for sharpness etc ?. The reason I say this is if I read correctly and 4K TVs are sometimes referred to as only as good as the distance you are away from it, then surely all these filters, processing elements are the same. There seem to be negatives when applying processing that you have to use other options to counter this, so I am unsure if it actually achieves anything. I see zoomed in pictures that says things change, but if you have to zoom in, are you actually going to see the difference in real time at unzoomed settings ?

I am not dissing MadVR at all, just confused where it is all going and how could it get better ?

Last edited by madjock; 29th May 2018 at 12:20.
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Old 29th May 2018, 12:56   #51027  |  Link
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Does it matter for us with HDR if it's D3D11 Exclusive (10bit) ? where would it matter ?
Using LG OLED C6 TV
Windows 1803
If I want the movie using the windows HDR which is 8 bit + Dithering will it be ok to watch HDR movies using D3D11 Full Windowed (8 bit) ?

Last edited by x7007; 29th May 2018 at 13:02.
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Old 29th May 2018, 13:02   #51028  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madjock View Post
I started using MadVR again after finding out that HDR goes to washed out until using the great application and it getting converted from HDR to SDR.
However, bear in mind the unfortunately (and I don't wanna blame madVR on this as apparently it seems to be quite a complex issue) neither madVR will give the same look as if it would be a native SDR source. Had to learn my lesson where I dared to raise a stink about how overblown Starship Troopers looks on UHD here.

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Originally Posted by madjock View Post
Am I seeing a Placebo effect watching 4K on a 1080P TV ? If the HDR is getting converted to SDR am I missing out on so much I should just stick to 1080P, do I see extra detail or is it Placebo ?
That depends on the source. In theory, if the 4K source has a better frequency response (spatial resolution) than its retail 2K counterpart, having that scaled down on your own using madVR or similar, will give you an optimal result.

Also note that some Blu-rays contain aliasing in their 2K video as a result of incorrect filtering (Transformers: Age of Extinction being a "good" example).

Also, UHD sources give you 2K resolution for the color, however it is questionable how severe that difference is.

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Originally Posted by madjock View Post
The more posts I read from people that own 4K HDR TVs is that instead of 4K movies differing in the amount of HDR, certain ones being darker, there is a constant battle messing with settings and not every film is the same, but is that not the point ?
Since HDR content draws even higher demands on the playback equipment especially in regard to maximum brightness, the results differ even more compared to SDR.

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Originally Posted by madjock View Post
To sum up can High Bitrate 1080P/4K movies look any better than they are, or could you get the same effect by playing with the TV settings for sharpness etc ?.
For my taste, that artificial "sharpening" or "edge enhancement" never adds anything useful to the picture. If the source isn't sharp to begin with, best one can achieve is a subjective higher sharpness at first sight at the cost of halos, ringing, and what not. Hence: no, you can't recreate any real detail with that setting.
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Old 29th May 2018, 13:28   #51029  |  Link
Magik Mark
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Guys,

what are your setting for HDR to SDR conversion. I'm getting a very pale color
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Old 29th May 2018, 13:42   #51030  |  Link
madjock
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Convert HDR content to SDR by using pixel shader math

I have target peak nits at 150
Tone mapping curve - BT.2390

and I am using dumb mode - convert gamut late

Unsure if any are right or wrong, but nothing looks bad as such.
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Old 29th May 2018, 13:56   #51031  |  Link
Magik Mark
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madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

Thanks a lot! That did it. However, I noticed in MPC BE, when you fast forward or jump from scene to scene. The color becomes pale again. You need to restart the player

Same thing happens when switching different refresh rates
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Last edited by Magik Mark; 29th May 2018 at 14:15.
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Old 29th May 2018, 15:32   #51032  |  Link
madjock
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Originally Posted by Magik Mark View Post
Thanks a lot! That did it. However, I noticed in MPC BE, when you fast forward or jump from scene to scene. The color becomes pale again. You need to restart the player

Same thing happens when switching different refresh rates
Ok this side, I use MPC-HC and KODI with Dsplayer, dont think I have seen any issues like that this side, on Nvidia 1050 and using 390.77 drivers.
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Old 29th May 2018, 16:07   #51033  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by x7007 View Post
Does it matter for us with HDR if it's D3D11 Exclusive (10bit) ? where would it matter ?
Using LG OLED C6 TV
Windows 1803
If I want the movie using the windows HDR which is 8 bit + Dithering will it be ok to watch HDR movies using D3D11 Full Windowed (8 bit) ?
It only matters if you can spot the difference with your eyes. You likely aren't missing anything with 8-bits with dithering. Many new UHD displays are still 8-bit with dithering. There are other more important things to worry about. Watch something at 8-bits and see if you notice the difference.
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Old 29th May 2018, 16:24   #51034  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Yoshi View Post
However, bear in mind the unfortunately (and I don't wanna blame madVR on this as apparently it seems to be quite a complex issue) neither madVR will give the same look as if it would be a native SDR source. Had to learn my lesson where I dared to raise a stink about how overblown Starship Troopers looks on UHD here.
Tone mapping and color accuracy don't really go together as well as you'd like. The paper below describes the challenge of correcting saturation and contrast after luminance reduction (how to desaturate after tone mapping):

https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rkm38/pdfs/mantiuk09cctm.pdf

If you look at the color corrected images of the apples towards the end of the paper, you'll notice they don't look too bad but don't match the original at all. And this paper limited luminance reduction to 33% of the original, so it didn't have to deal with out-of-gamut colors, which require further correction, even after proper desaturation.

I think most current HDR content is being mastered to be tone mapped by dimmer displays. I saw a side-by-side of the 2018 flagship Samsung QLED (with a peak brightness over 1,000 nits) with an LG OLED (peak brightness of 540 nits) playing the same frames from HDR sources. The LG OLED has a better black level, but not by much. However, the slight boost in contrast and saturation provided by tone mapping made the OLED look like it had a much better black level and more overall punch in the image. The only area where the Samsung excelled was in shadow detail, also likely due to the tone mapping of the OLED. And the dumb gamut mapping of the OLED made the extreme highlights stand out more. The combination of the perceived boost in contrast with the enhanced highlights made the OLED look better even if it was less true to the director's intent. The difference in detail in the two images was very striking. Tone mapping can lead to very different images in some scenes depending on how the content is mapped.

Things would likely move in Samsung's favor if you tried to tone map the same sources to something as low as 100 nits. But moderate tone mapping doesn't look that bad if the source is graded for it.
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Old 29th May 2018, 17:55   #51035  |  Link
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Thanks a lot! That did it. However, I noticed in MPC BE, when you fast forward or jump from scene to scene. The color becomes pale again. You need to restart the player

Same thing happens when switching different refresh rates
If you're using xysubfilter, try to use the internal subtitle renderer. I have reported to Madshi an issue with xysubfilter in pixel shader that causes such issues. Hopefully it will be fixed at some point, along with the unnecessary forced 8bits in pixel shader with nVidia in windowed mode.
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Last edited by Manni; 29th May 2018 at 20:44.
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Old 29th May 2018, 23:15   #51036  |  Link
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Thanks Manni! That did it.
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Old 30th May 2018, 12:13   #51037  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.92.11 released
Code:
* fixed: "display" profile variable didn't work properly
Yes. Now it's working as expected. Thanks.
Now you can even have different renders (DX9/DX11) on different displays. The only thing which is not functioning when you change display on the fly is overlay if it is enabled on one display and disabled on other.

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I'm not sure how near frame blending would have to be done, it might require dozens of frames to be blended to be totally invisible. I think a better idea might be to try to detect two frames where motion is minimal and then drop one of those. But this is relatively hard to implement. So not planned any time soon.
>it might require dozens of frames to be blended to be totally invisible
Yes, dozens. So we will have hours of "bit perfect" video and few seconds of blended (and user can manually set length of this (blended) area if you will do such setting).

>I think a better idea might be to try to detect two frames where motion is minimal and then drop one of those. But this is relatively hard to implement.
Yes, hard. And that's why i offered blending. IMHO you have all ready for this (Smooth Motion algorithm) except drop/repeat point detector.

Last edited by SweetLow; 30th May 2018 at 12:39.
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Old 30th May 2018, 12:59   #51038  |  Link
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What? Do you mean madshi will improve the smooth motion algorithm?
Is it the totally new algorithm?
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Old 30th May 2018, 13:14   #51039  |  Link
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What? Do you mean madshi will improve the smooth motion algorithm?
Is it the totally new algorithm?
No. It is not improvement of SM nor new algorithm. This is struggling with almost the same but not equal frequencies. Read the beginning of this discussion.
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Old 30th May 2018, 13:21   #51040  |  Link
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What? Do you mean madshi will improve the smooth motion algorithm?
Is it the totally new algorithm?
With high refresh displays it makes sense to improve smooth motion at some point if it's possible.. but yeah as Sweetlow said, this is about matching refresh to display frequencies.

Last edited by ryrynz; 30th May 2018 at 13:25.
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