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Old 19th April 2010, 22:32   #11401  |  Link
clsid
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Originally Posted by tetsuo55 View Post
afaik those exist because our version of ffmpeg is broken, hence why i rather do a straight copy from ffdshow's one.
The ffmpeg code isn't the cause, its the code that uses it that needs work.
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oh dear...
Indeed.
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Old 19th April 2010, 22:41   #11402  |  Link
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Indeed.
I'm not going to go there.
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Old 20th April 2010, 00:52   #11403  |  Link
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With respect, I disagree strongly to clsid, MPC-HC has a place as an all in one that works REALLY well when lots of other things don't, especially for users who don't know enough to mess with filter priority and stuff, that can be pretty evil.

Especially once machines have had codec packs loaded on them and stuff no longer works, MPC-HC is like old faithful.
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Old 20th April 2010, 01:45   #11404  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Mixer73 View Post
With respect, I disagree strongly to clsid, MPC-HC has a place as an all in one that works REALLY well when lots of other things don't, especially for users who don't know enough to mess with filter priority and stuff, that can be pretty evil.

Especially once machines have had codec packs loaded on them and stuff no longer works, MPC-HC is like old faithful.
I'm sorry but I think this is not something where you can disagree with clsid with only these arguments. This discussion started from proposition to make something, so maintaining internal filters and bug fixing will be easier and not because someone just wants to change something for no reason. And it was said that mpc-hc team have no plans to work on codecs.
Also even with replacing internal filters by ffdshow it is possible to have no admin rights requirement and playability on old systems "where all codecs messed up". However yes, it will require some amount of work.

Last edited by Keiyakusha; 20th April 2010 at 01:48.
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Old 20th April 2010, 08:25   #11405  |  Link
madshi
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Except without the conflicts, crashes and ancient ACM/VCM libraries that codec packs have. (also the hundreds of tray icons)
I'm not saying that the well known big codec packs out there would be any good. But that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be possible to create a good codec pack.

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In my opinion the setup is fine. It's the right mix between standalone player and mplayer/vlc type app with support for hundreds of codecs and dozens of various options. Though there is some cruft like RealMedia and Quicktime support that's a bit dated.
MPC HC is currently my main media player, and I really like it. I don't find the internal filter logic (preferring most internal filters over external filters, without considering the filter quality) right, though.

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Also internal DXVA is better than anything else for 1080p50 material.
Why is ffdshow slower? Probably because it wants to enable post processing and subtitles, right? I think it would be possible to solve that problem. E.g. post processing could be disabled to avoid that GPU <-> RAM copy stuff. Subtitles could be sent to the video renderer directly, I'd guess. If all else fails, the MPC HC video renderers could expose some new interfaces to make ffdshow DXVA subtitle rendering possible in a fast way. Not sure how much work that would be. But I'm quite sure it would be possible to implement DXVA in ffdshow without speed penalty, as long as the user doesn't require post processing.

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Originally Posted by Mixer73 View Post
With respect, I disagree strongly to clsid, MPC-HC has a place as an all in one that works REALLY well when lots of other things don't, especially for users who don't know enough to mess with filter priority and stuff, that can be pretty evil.

Especially once machines have had codec packs loaded on them and stuff no longer works, MPC-HC is like old faithful.
There's no doubt that bad codec packs will mess up anyone's PC. But that's not the point. clsid was talking about a *good* codec pack. E.g. imagine a codec pack only consisting of MPC HC and ffdshow, where all those MPC HC's internal filters which are duplicates to ffdshow are removed, and where MPC HC automatically "preferred" ffdshow instead. That would be a pretty good start for a "good" codec pack. It would still have all the positive properties you mentioned, plus it would fix a couple of bugs. There may be a few more freeware filters which would be worth being part of such a codec pack, but that's a whole different topic.

Please understand that we're not trying to bully the MPC HC folks into distributing ffdshow with MPC HC. It's just that according to tetsuo55, MPC HC's aim is to provide an all-in-one solution. And if I, personally, were trying to create a really good all-in-one solution, I would find no way around including some selected external DirectShow filters.
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Old 20th April 2010, 08:39   #11406  |  Link
tetsuo55
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What kierank means with DXVA is that the implementation in ffdshow needs to do a very slow system memory > gpu memory copy operation.

about 3rd party codecs, almost every codec that we can legally include is equal to or worse than ffmpeg.
I would gladly hear about cases where another open source codec is better than ffmpeg.
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Old 20th April 2010, 08:58   #11407  |  Link
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What kierank means with DXVA is that the implementation in ffdshow needs to do a very slow system memory > gpu memory copy operation.
Yes, and what I mean is that there would probably be ways to avoid that under specific circumstances (e.g. with disabled post processing and subtitles, see previous post).

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Originally Posted by tetsuo55 View Post
about 3rd party codecs, almost every codec that we can legally include is equal to or worse than ffmpeg.
I would gladly hear about cases where another open source codec is better than ffmpeg.
Why limiting things to open source? I was talking about *freeware* 3rd party codecs, which you could include in the MPC HC distribution to create an even better all-in-one solution. Examples would be ffdshow, Haali Media Splitter, madFlac, ... It's quite possible that Haali's license wouldn't allow you to redistribute it, though. Again: I'm not trying to bullying you into include the mentioned filters. I'm just saying that if a great all-in-one solution is your aim, it might make sense to include a few selected external filters. Or at least, if you detect that some specific external filters are installed, you could disable some internal filters by default and prefer known good external filters instead. Just a suggestion, though. Any way in which MPC HC could be improved to automatically work better with good external filters, without having to tweak MPC HC settings, would be nice.
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Old 20th April 2010, 10:44   #11408  |  Link
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Postprocessing is disabled by default in ffdshow. The small speed difference might be due to colorspace conversion and some sanity checks that MPC does not perform. Btw, MPC does not have any multi-threaded decoding, so on a multicore CPU ffdshow will be much faster with decoding H.264 in software mode.

It always makes me laugh when people say that codec packs are evil and break your system. While that may be true for ancient stuff such as Nimo and ACE, it is just blatantly untrue for any modern codec pack such as CCCP or K-Lite. In fact, for example K-Lite is equipped with special functionality to fix things. This includes detection (and removal) of several known bad codecs that cause crashes, memory leaks and other stability issues. It includes detection (and removal) of incorrect codec references in the registry (left-over stuff). It includes detection of some known audio and DirectShow issues. It includes a proper uninstaller. It adjusts what it installs based on what is already installed. Everything can be customized. Etc. Etc.

Btw, the update that I did yesterday has made software H264 decoding in MPC significantly faster. Your welcome
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Old 20th April 2010, 11:35   #11409  |  Link
tetsuo55
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It is possible to make a more complicated dshow fallback system than we currently have in MPC-HC and i can see how this improves the experience for some.

We believe that software should be open source, that is the main reason for not including closed source filters.
I think k-lite/cccp solve the problem quite nicely as their codec choices favor open source and free codecs replacing them only with others when they are truly better.

The problem with ffdshow's DXVA implementation has nothing to do with the postprocessing its a design flaw in DXVA2 (mpc-hc uses DXVA1 which doesn't suffer from this issue but has other problems).
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Old 20th April 2010, 12:05   #11410  |  Link
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How about FFdshow guys help MPC guys with what they want and the MPC guys fix ffdshow's vobsub implementation.

/crawling back under my rock
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Old 20th April 2010, 12:13   #11411  |  Link
tetsuo55
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The idea is to create a new subtitle renderer and with that a new subtitle format.
This new renderer should be a drop in replacement for the current stuff in ffdshow/mpc-hc
the lead dev for that project is looking for help though, he needs help with brainstorming and coding. (PM me if you are willing and able to help out)
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Old 20th April 2010, 12:37   #11412  |  Link
kieranrk
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Originally Posted by clsid View Post
It always makes me laugh when people say that codec packs are evil and break your system. While that may be true for ancient stuff such as Nimo and ACE, it is just blatantly untrue for any modern codec pack such as CCCP or K-Lite. In fact, for example K-Lite is equipped with special functionality to fix things. This includes detection (and removal) of several known bad codecs that cause crashes, memory leaks and other stability issues. It includes detection (and removal) of incorrect codec references in the registry (left-over stuff). It includes detection of some known audio and DirectShow issues. It includes a proper uninstaller. It adjusts what it installs based on what is already installed. Everything can be customized. Etc. Etc.
One could go on for pages and pages as to why K-lite has major problems...I'm not going to do it because it will turn this thread into a flamefest. CCCP is ffdshow and mpc-hc so is not comparable.
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Old 20th April 2010, 13:55   #11413  |  Link
madshi
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We believe that software should be open source, that is the main reason for not including closed source filters.
So, you make your decisions based on politics, instead of quality?
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Old 20th April 2010, 14:15   #11414  |  Link
clsid
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One could go on for pages and pages as to why K-lite has major problems...I'm not going to do it because it will turn this thread into a flamefest. CCCP is ffdshow and mpc-hc so is not comparable.
Your last comment just proves how little you know about this. K-Lite has different variants, of which the Standard one is very comparable to CCCP in terms of contents.
I love to hear about those so-called problems, but since you don't actually use the pack, I doubt you will be able to come up with much valid stuff.
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Old 20th April 2010, 15:43   #11415  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tetsuo55 View Post
The idea is to create a new subtitle renderer and with that a new subtitle format.
This new renderer should be a drop in replacement for the current stuff in ffdshow/mpc-hc
the lead dev for that project is looking for help though, he needs help with brainstorming and coding. (PM me if you are willing and able to help out)
Why don't you include subtitle renderer from ffdshow in mpc-hc because your subtitle renderer is very buggued with a bad blu-ray subs support (with ffdshow it is nearly perfect under vista and seven (even if it doesn't work under xp) thanks to the amazing work of Albain)?

Last edited by ikarad; 20th April 2010 at 15:46.
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Old 20th April 2010, 16:01   #11416  |  Link
tetsuo55
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So, you make your decisions based on politics, instead of quality?
As you might have noticed there is a ton of politics in both these programs.
I hope everyone will move to a new scientifically best best model instead, but it will remain based on open-source.
being/using open source is one of mpc-hc's core ideoligies and one of our unique selling points as a dshow based player.

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Why don't you include subtitle renderer from ffdshow in mpc-hc because your subtitle renderer is very buggued with a bad blu-ray subs support (with ffdshow it is nearly perfect under vista and seven (even if it doesn't work under xp) thanks to the amazing work of Albain)?
they are incompatible unfortunately, we need devs that want to work on this type of changes.
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Old 20th April 2010, 16:04   #11417  |  Link
ikarad
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@Albain,
there is a bug with blu-ray sub support with xp sp3 (under vista it works very well).

The subs are divide in two parts and are not completed



I try with YUY2 or RGB 32 and there is the same problem.
I try with all versions of ffdshow (3350 to 3368) where it works under vista and there is the same problem udner xp sp3.

I notice some crashs but I think that crashs come from this problem .

same example that I give you before
example
part 1
http://www.zshare.net/info.html?7219...12ca4e70f4959e
part2
http://www.zshare.net/info.html?7222...cb0c45e37239c1
part3
http://www.zshare.net/info.html?7222...fa215e89fcfdf2

part 4
http://www.zshare.net/info.html?7287...1fac7d6620cda5

part 5
http://www.zshare.net/info.html?7289...835142beff854c
part 6
http://www.zshare.net/info.html?7290...3fe6974fb1237c

partie 7
http://www.zshare.net/info.html?7215...a94c0fc61987f5

Last edited by ikarad; 20th April 2010 at 16:21.
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Old 20th April 2010, 16:13   #11418  |  Link
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Your last comment just proves how little you know about this. K-Lite has different variants, of which the Standard one is very comparable to CCCP in terms of contents.
I love to hear about those so-called problems, but since you don't actually use the pack, I doubt you will be able to come up with much valid stuff.
No I would never pollute my PC with K-lite. Why do you think Microsoft started putting native codecs in Windows 7? Because normal people, many of whom I know have installed codec packs such as K-lite which lead to crashes and conflicts beyond belief.

For a start in K-lite Basic/Standard you include:

Haali Video Renderer [version 1.10.120.15]
Hasn't been updated for ages. Is it that fundamental to watching videos that it deserves to be in the Basic pack?

In Standard:

MPEG-2 (Cyberlink) [version 8.4.0.1014]
And whats wrong with ffdshow's mpeg-2 decoder?

And to summarise what would be pages and pages for the other variants:

You take the Adobe Acrobat Reader approach to codecs. Include as much obscure stuff in the codec pack as possible just like Adobe includes all sorts of obscure plugins. Add so much bloat so that the 0.00001% of occasions when such a thing is needed it's there. There is also ridiculous amounts of duplication for no reason at all: ACM codecs, VFW codecs and even more obscure formats. How many AAC/AC3/MPEG-2 etc decoders do we really need according to you?

Last edited by kieranrk; 20th April 2010 at 16:21.
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Old 20th April 2010, 16:30   #11419  |  Link
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And whats wrong with ffdshow's mpeg-2 decoder?
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=148056

for example.
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Old 20th April 2010, 16:36   #11420  |  Link
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That's a subtitling issue though, not an mpeg-2 issue.
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