"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection

[derbeDeus]

Originally Posted by Ghitulescu

-it was not advertised as containing cinavia

Sony does advertise

Originally Posted by hello_hello

Still no link?

He did say it's on Verance site. Search...

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

So they're updating players with firmware now? Fascinating. This should prove interesting. I haven't checked my stand alone player yet.

Sony released Cinavia firmwares on 1st of February And Samsung on 2nd.
It was all prepared, just waiting for the clock.

I must admit, they didn't do it as I thought they would, online activation and without notice.
They did it through firmware update and some will even tell you what's in the bag.
If you don't update asap and take a look around you may not "catch" Cinavia

[hello_hello]

Originally Posted by derbeDeus

He did say it's on Verance site. Search...

He says a lot of things, such as firmware won't be advertised as containing cinavia. Sony has proved that wrong.
I did look, but for some reason didn't see it. Hence asking for a link.
Thanks.

The press release isn't terribly specific. It'll be interesting to see if manufacturers release firmware for all existing/current players which includes Cinavia, or whether they'll mainly include it in the firmware the players ship with from now on.

For example the Sony player you linked to has new firmware which includes Cinavia, but the Sony player I own (S480), appears not to, and I think it's still a current model. I wonder whether manufacturers are obligated to include it in new firmware for older-model players, or even if it necessarily follows Cinavia detection is something older players must be capable of.

[omegaman7]

I won't connect my Folks LG or Samsung, for fear of them allowing an update. They're not exactly good (at all) with technology. They'll see an update as a positive thing. Naturally...
The funny thing is, I bought the LG to allow Netflix connectivity. But because I'm afraid of their updating it, I won't allow it Good luck enforcing it on an HTPC guys! You're gonna need it.

[xenex]

It's amusing how that Sony firmware update link above lists Cinavia under "Benefits and improvements." I'm fairly certain there are NO customers writing in to request "Please add Cinavia, I want it, please!!"

Funny how times change. I remember it was just a few years back that firmware updates were generally considered a "good thing." It meant that the mfg. was still actively supporting older products and often even adding new features.

Now they are a thing to be feared, shunned, and avoided. "What will they take away next - or what horrible DRM crap will they add." To the point that the "upgrades" - if you can call them that - are being forced in some cases.

We live in interesting times.

[Ghitulescu]

@omegaman
http://lgknowledgebase.com/kb/index....y&EntryID=6479

and for our maestro in using the internet when he feels in need to argue with people, the snapshot of the home page of verance - namely (that's another helping hand) click me to take you to verance home page then look on the right hand side

[derbeDeus]

Originally Posted by hello_hello

He says a lot of things, such as firmware won't be advertised as containing cinavia. Sony has proved that wrong.

This whole thread is created to speculate on the subject. That's not a bad thing, it only matters how good is the idea put forward. We try to compensate with brain the lack of "official" info Since most of us don't work for Sony&co, AACSLA or Verance some of the stuff discussed here prove to be correct and some are wrong.

I thought that was common knowledge that 1st Feb is the kick start for Cinavia in all players. It's been discussed in Cinavia forums...

Originally Posted by hello_hello

The press release isn't terribly specific. It'll be interesting to see if manufacturers release firmware for all existing/current players which includes Cinavia, or whether they'll mainly include it in the firmware the players ship with from now on.

For example the Sony player you linked to has new firmware which includes Cinavia, but the Sony player I own (S480), appears not to, and I think it's still a current model. I wonder whether manufacturers are obligated to include it in new firmware for older-model players, or even if it necessarily follows Cinavia detection is something older players must be capable of.

I think it's reasonable to say that all players that will continue to receive keys after Feb 2012 will incorporate a Cinavia detector. I don't think manufacturers are forced to include it in older players. I can even say that it's manufacturers choice which players will have it or not, cause they know better how powerful their devices are. So they'll decide to put Cinavia in and continue to receive keys or to "retire" a particular model. <---- btw, speculation
I think someone could say for sure by reading AACS licensing docs. I've started to read one but got bored.

[hello_hello]

Originally Posted by Ghitulescu

and for our maestro in using the internet when he feels in need to argue with people, the snapshot of the home page of verance - namely (that's another helping hand)

Yeah, the link was posted a while ago. I discussed it in my last post. Time to move on.....

[hello_hello]

Originally Posted by derbeDeus

This whole thread is created to speculate on the subject. That's not a bad thing, it only matters how good is the idea put forward.

I agree. Which is why, like yourself, I wouldn't offer speculation as fact.

Originally Posted by derbeDeus

I think it's reasonable to say that all players that will continue to receive keys after Feb 2012 will incorporate a Cinavia detector. I don't think manufacturers are forced to include it in older players. I can even say that it's manufacturers choice which players will have it or not, cause they know better how powerful their devices are. So they'll decide to put Cinavia in and continue to receive keys or to "retire" a particular model.

Yeah. I'd speculate something similar. I can see manufacturers offering firmware updates for older players for media compatibility etc, but I don't think it necessarily follows they'll all go to the trouble of also including Cinavia unless they have to. Especially if the minute they do, they've got to pay a fee for the privilege. I guess time will tell.

[xenex]

Originally Posted by derbeDeus

I think it's reasonable to say that all players that will continue to receive keys after Feb 2012 will incorporate a Cinavia detector.

That's a really backward and odd way of saying things. What you seem to be saying is "any player manufactured after Feb 2012 will not receive new keys from the AACSLA unless they incorporate a Cinavia detector."

But we don't know this to be the case. Now, just as you are, I am speculating. To my understanding, the newer Sigma SoC's (and others) implement the actual Cinavia detection. However, the firmware itself must do the job of muting audio/stopping playback. That's why we see the PS3 and some Sony and Samsung players adding it via firmware.

And as I have read, many older players do not have chips capable of Cinavia detection. So in their case, no firmware update is even possible to add the "muting/stoppage."

I have a strong feeling based on what I have read that this Feb 2012 "cutoff date" will only apply to new models of players that are released. In other words, I am saying that if Oppo, for example, continues to sell their two models of players, they can continue to do so without adding Cinavia detection at all.

But IF they do release a new model, then it will have to include it. But they don't have to design or release a new model either. I know the licensing agreements have a lot of power, but I don't believe that they have so much power that they can force any hardware manufacturer to redesign or modify something they already have in production.

I'm "speculating" too, but with some thought behind it.

[Ghitulescu]

Originally Posted by derbeDeus

I thought that was common knowledge that 1st Feb is the kick start for Cinavia in all players. It's been discussed in Cinavia forums...


I think it's reasonable to say that all players that will continue to receive keys after Feb 2012 will incorporate a Cinavia detector. I don't think manufacturers are forced to include it in older players. I can even say that it's manufacturers choice which players will have it or not, cause they know better how powerful their devices are. So they'll decide to put Cinavia in and continue to receive keys or to "retire" a particular model.

Originally Posted by xenex

That's a really backward and odd way of saying things. What you seem to be saying is "any player manufactured after Feb 2012 will not receive new keys from the AACSLA unless they incorporate a Cinavia detector."

I have a strong feeling based on what I have read that this Feb 2012 "cutoff date" will only apply to new models of players that are released. In other words, I am saying that if Oppo, for example, continues to sell their two models of players, they can continue to do so without adding Cinavia detection at all.

But IF they do release a new model, then it will have to include it. But they don't have to design or release a new model either. I know the licensing agreements have a lot of power, but I don't believe that they have so much power that they can force any hardware manufacturer to redesign or modify something they already have in production.

Neither is 100% correct. I said that all the products sold after that date must contain cinavia. That means that the manufacturer must ensure that older stocks that have not been sold yet would receive cinavied-FW.

Adopter may not, after the Certification Requirement Date, sell or distribute a Licensed Product to the public, or cause a Licensed Product to be sold or distributed to the public

If no other provisions are set in the individual agreements, the manufacturer is not required to update all the models it sold before 01.02.12. But if a model was manufactured before 01.02 and this model is still on sale, then it must provide an infected FW.

In this case, the older models will "decay" themselves.

Anyway, to add something few people are aware of: any repair shop MUST upgrade the FW to the latest stand. For Blu-ray-players this will automatically mean cinavia.

[CruNcher]

Also this is just the beginning more Devices (Software) gonna follow in the future see it as the start
And if you think this is coming so unexpected hehe think again this is prepared for years, also be careful with Bios updates

[rotty]

There is a lot said here re power, power of the studio's, LA, etc.

Consumer power makes power of these Companies/Studios etc look pathetic.

In all fields, in all market types, there are no execeptions, this is and has always been true.

If people are not buying players because of this, and are not buying disks because of it then we will see who has the power.

What the buying public want, and dont want have always been the real power and driving force, its true now, and will always be true.

The only power is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[CruNcher]

Just wait for Fairuse to be redefined

[Ghitulescu]

Well, I wonder how many of these users, that download camrips from the net to see a particular movie that is not yet in their theatres, will resist buying, especially when the price will be conveniently lowered.

And, as setarip_old once said, there will always be a certain % of users that won't buy no matter what (let's call them pirates). Diminishing the revenues of the multimedia giants together with the activity of those "Robin Hoods" will give studios the excuse to cut even more from the rights of the rest, honest buyers - it's because of piracy that we had lower incomes, let's cut them the right to a private copy, the fair use right, the right to sell, to rent etc etc, let's make the rootkit mandatory etc etc etc. Will it pass? Yes, because the politicians are more sensible to a direct "sponsorship" of a meagre 50.000$ than to the interest of the millions of voters that put them into the Senate/Parliament.

[CruNcher]

Hehe you have it in that Screenshot" The Definition of Consensus" though not ours

[diogen]

Inventing - and licensing - DRM schemes has a very spotty track record in preventing ripping.
And even less on companies signing up to use them.

CSS
Made completely useless by DVD Jon last century.
Nevertheless, studios still use it on their DVD releases.

AACS
Hacked by muslix in 2006. Seems to be as useless as CSS.

BD+
Despite being reverse engineered by Slysoft, Paramount joined FOX in licensing BD+ .

How can Cinavia prevent me from playing ripped DVD/BDs?
As long as I don't use an "authorized" player, Cinavia presence in the audio stream is completely irrelevant to the playback experience.
Considering all the audio/video codecs in DVD/BD can be handled with third party decoders (e.g. ffdshow),
what can possibly force me to use an "authorized" player?

I can't imagine the anti-ripping campaign to succeed unless streaming is the only distribution mechanism.

Diogen.

EDIT: By "playing ripped DVD/BDs" I mean computer playback.

[Ghitulescu]

Originally Posted by diogen

How can Cinavia prevent me from playing ripped DVD/BDs?
As long as I don't use an "authorized" player, Cinavia presence in the audio stream is completely irrelevant to the playback experience.
Considering all the audio/video codecs in DVD/BD can be handled with third party decoders (e.g. ffdshow),
what can possibly force me to use an "authorized" player

I wonder why microsoft licensed cinavia

[SamuriHL]

Originally Posted by Ghitulescu

I wonder why microsoft licensed cinavia

For the xbox 720.

[Ghitulescu]

Originally Posted by SamuriHL

For the xbox 720.

Indeed, I never thought of that ,
in fact it's useless to invest twice in a DRM technology, one time (Intel Sandy Bridge) suffices

Sandy Bridge, the latest line of Intel's Core i series CPUs, will reportedly feature faster speeds, better integrated graphics, lower power consumption and a DRM scheme to protect the content of motion picture studios.

[derbeDeus]

Originally Posted by diogen

Despite being reverse engineered by Slysoft, Paramount joined FOX in licensing BD+ .

Link, please?