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Old 28th August 2013, 18:47   #19961  |  Link
madshi
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Need HELP gathering samples for future madVR algorithms.

Basically I'm looking for samples which have all kinds of black bars encoded into the video area, either top/bottom, or left/right, or even all around. The weirder the black bars are, the better. E.g. if the top bar is smaller than the bottom bar (as is the case with some Japan broadcasts because they place subtitles under the Cinemascope video area), that would make a great sample.

If there are logos or burnt-in subtitles in the bars, that would be nice, too. They can be partially or completely in the black bars. Also interesting would be samples which have black bars with raised black levels. The higher raised, the better. Basically any sample which is weird in any way: Send it to me!

Just very small samples (like 3 seconds of runtime or so) will do, although if you want to upload larger samples, that'd be fine with me, too. If it's a sample with subtitles in the black bars, then maybe it would make sense to make the sample a bit longer, so that the sample contains both (1) frames with subtitles visible and also (2) frames with no subtitles visible.

Please don't expect those "future madVR algorithms" soon, and I'll also not comment on what exactly those algorithms will do. Maybe you can guess, based on what kind of samples I'm asking for. In any case, I'll not comment on the algorithms until they're done and available. Thanks!
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Old 28th August 2013, 19:09   #19962  |  Link
Niyawa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Looks like a problem with DXVA decoding to me. Or the GPU hardware is broken.
Yes yes I'm sorry! I forgot to ask him this question because he said he didn't use any settings other than default so I assumed this wasn't an issue.

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If you're looking for a computer display, I'd prefer an IPS panel, except if you're a heavy gamer, maybe. If you're looking for a movie display, I'd much rather recommend a Panasonic plasma, or one of the new OLED displays from LG or Samsung if can afford that. But that is a hot topic, and a matter of taste (some people don't like plasmas, while I personally like them much better than LCDs for movie watching). So please let's no go into this in any more depth.
Okay. I've read that plasma fixes a lot of the LCD issues so I understand your reasoning. I'm not much of a gamer (just casually play some fps to pass time) so maybe IPS display is the ideal, thanks madshi.
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Old 28th August 2013, 19:37   #19963  |  Link
PetitDragon
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Hi madshi,

I got a file (32 MB) to upload:

http://www.mediafire.com/watch/y6ncdghwkkc35r5/SISTAR-Shady_Girl_-_YouTube_(need_ivtc%2C_need_ar_correction).webm

Sorry I don't know how to make it shorter, due to the vp8 format.
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Old 28th August 2013, 19:43   #19964  |  Link
madshi
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@PetitDragon, that's nicely weird. I'd say the black level in those black bars is raised *a lot*...

You guys can also PM me with samples. Doesn't have to be posts in this thread.
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Old 28th August 2013, 20:30   #19965  |  Link
leeperry
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(1) Why is there more flickering with BFI turned *OFF* compared to turned *ON*? Normally BFI introduces flickering, it doesn't remove/reduce it!
My bad, I should had added "visible" because when BFI is on, the flickering is so fast that my brain can barely pick up. For instance if I enable the TV menu that has a light blue background, I can definitely see the obvious flicker when BFI is disabled, but when it's enabled the picture is far more "stable"...to the point that I really have to stare & focus to see the BFI flicker.

The only problem with BFI to my eyes is high contrast, like white lettering on black background or the opposite(TV channel logos or windows desktop icons for instance). In those cases, it does indeed flicker like RBE's but without the funky colors. OTOH it's a real treat for computer use if there's no high contrast taking place.

Anyway, BFI is great on 1080i50 HD DVB-T and it's a TV set in the first place so that definitely improves the TV viewing.

I'm going to try that supposedly non-flickering BenQ GW2760HS and if that fails(I'm doubtful but youtube videos speak a millions words), I'll go back to that TV set with BFI enabled for windows use & TV and no-BFI for mVR's FRC.

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(2) When you're talking about "24p judder", do you mean the judder that the lower framerate of 24fps naturally comes with? If so, 24p@60Hz + mVR FRC should show it exactly the same way. If 24p@60Hz + mVR FRC is smoother for you than the native 24Hz modes of your display, then I would bet on that your display doesn't handle 24Hz "correctly", instead it probably does a 3:2 pulldown internally. If that is the case, what you're seeing is not "24p judder", but instead 3:2 pulldown judder introduced by your display handling 24p input in a bad way. If you had a display which handles 24Hz input correctly, it should be just as smooth as 24p@60Hz + mVR FRC is.
I know what dropped/dupped frames and 3:2 pull down look like.......I've tried a whole bunch of non-broken 1:1 displays and to my eyes -even on a 96.000Hz CRT- mVR's FRC does improve the 24p smoothness. Basically the blurring makes the 24p cadence smoother. Yes it's still 24p but its cadence is less visible and that drastically improves the subjective pop effect to my eyes.

When I first tried this feature, I really hated the blurring but after my brain got the hang of it(and I believe learned to ignore it) it just looks less syncopated and "smoother". You blend the frames and it makes them look less "mechanical", the "dinosaur walk" cadence becomes far less obvious. I believe that's the best analogy I can find to explain what I see

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I've said it right from the start: The higher the refresh rate, and the lower the framerate, the better smooth motion FRC works. I might be able to improve the smoothness when framerate and refresh rate are near to each other, but if I do so, it will cost quite a bit more sharpness in moving parts of the image.
Oh well, I'm currently typing this on one of those TV sets but this one has a crappy panel and it's less responsive and less contrasty than the one I had before.....the blurring is pretty annoying to tell you the truth, but blurring is not much of an issue on a properly driven A-MVA panel.

Anyway, I want frames blending and it will blur the PQ by design I think.....OTOH, if you have other magic tricks to try, I'll be happy to.

Last edited by leeperry; 28th August 2013 at 20:50.
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Old 28th August 2013, 20:59   #19966  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
I can definitely see the obvious flicker when BFI is disabled
But an LCD display is sample-and-hold, it should not flicker *at all* if BFI is disabled. Unless there's a scanning backlight in addition to BFI? A scanning backlight (if implemented properly) should not flicker noticeably, though...
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Old 28th August 2013, 21:13   #19967  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Is this in windowed mode or overlay mode or fse mode?
That's FSE mode.

Stability isn't a problem, no drops or glitches even with GPU queue set to the lowest value possible, i.e. four. However with e.g. 24p@60Hz using FRC I have to set the presentation queue not lower than ten, otherwise the rendering time will increase. (Changing queues sometimes needs a restart of MPC-HC to give reliable results.)
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Old 28th August 2013, 23:23   #19968  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
But an LCD display is sample-and-hold, it should not flicker *at all* if BFI is disabled. Unless there's a scanning backlight in addition to BFI? A scanning backlight (if implemented properly) should not flicker noticeably, though...
It's a complicated matter but you can clearly see Sammy TV's flicker in that movie I linked earlier, those cameras catch it the same way my brain does: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-Y9bH-3Qu8

IME, all flat screens flicker....but there are different kinds of flicker, some of them due to PWM, others prolly to a scanning backlight as you are saying. Anyway, my hopes are high towards the GW2760HS: no visible flicker, no headaches due to PWM = sounds like a plan

Last edited by leeperry; 28th August 2013 at 23:39.
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Old 29th August 2013, 03:41   #19969  |  Link
dansrfe
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madshi, I know this isn't what you asked for but would it be helpful to PM a 4k broadcast clip to you?
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Old 29th August 2013, 06:03   #19970  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
And this occurs with all movies? Please double check the OSD to see whether deinterlacing is actually enabled and film mode active when forcing film mode. Maybe the movie is detected to be progressive? In that case forcing film mode won't do a thing, but using the file name tag might force deinterlacing on. Not sure, though, just a guess. At least that's the only way I can imagine why the problem would only apply to the file name tag...
It's soft telecined progressive source. There's a sample at http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=125

You are correct forcing film doesn't have an effect, deinterlacing is off. But something is broken with randomly incorrect ivtc, replay the once problematic clip and now it works fine, frame stepping shows no repeats, tested this with mpc and potplayer with osd showing no drops/delays. I've always used deint=ivtc to work around this issue but it's not a working option in potplayer due to the artifacts.

deint=on doesn't have the artifacts but as expected has the frame repeats. It doesn't seem to be a deinterlacing issue.

Another thing with deint=ivtc and potplayer is it never find's a cadence of any file.
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Last edited by turbojet; 29th August 2013 at 06:07.
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Old 29th August 2013, 07:45   #19971  |  Link
madshi
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IME, all flat screens flicker....but there are different kinds of flicker, some of them due to PWM, others prolly to a scanning backlight as you are saying.
My IPS computer monitor doesn't flicker *at all*. Maybe TN panels have to dither because they might not be able to do 8bit natively, but then dither is not flicker. I believe LCD panels should generally not flicker at all, unless they use BFI, DFI or a scanning backlight.

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madshi, I know this isn't what you asked for but would it be helpful to PM a 4k broadcast clip to you?
If it has black bars somewhere, then sure, why not.

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It's soft telecined progressive source. There's a sample at http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=125

You are correct forcing film doesn't have an effect, deinterlacing is off. But something is broken with randomly incorrect ivtc, replay the once problematic clip and now it works fine, frame stepping shows no repeats, tested this with mpc and potplayer with osd showing no drops/delays. I've always used deint=ivtc to work around this issue but it's not a working option in potplayer due to the artifacts.

deint=on doesn't have the artifacts but as expected has the frame repeats. It doesn't seem to be a deinterlacing issue.

Another thing with deint=ivtc and potplayer is it never find's a cadence of any file.
Ok, since you already posted a bug report to the tracker (thanks), I'll continue there, when I find the time (not now).
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Old 29th August 2013, 08:41   #19972  |  Link
pie1394
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My IPS computer monitor doesn't flicker *at all*. Maybe TN panels have to dither because they might not be able to do 8bit natively, but then dither is not flicker. I believe LCD panels should generally not flicker at all, unless they use BFI, DFI or a scanning backlight.
My monitor is just exactly the Dell U2412M(6-bit e-IPS + A-FRC panel), which was tested in the PWM-issue article. Fortunately my eyes cannot sense any flicking issue at 15% brightness -- in the room with 2 LED bulbs -- 9w 700lm 5000~5700K + 9w 580lm 2700K.

About the KDL-65HX920 in the living room, my eyes do not sense any static image flicking issue, either --- even with MotionFlow Clear+ setting. The horizontal strobing black-bar (from top-to-down direction on 8 vertical local-dimming zones) runs at 960Hz speed --- 4 times speed of its 240Hz Innolux S-MVA panel.

The MotionFlow Impulse setting in HX750/HX850/HX950 could show it since the backlit is totally turned off at 75% of display time.
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Old 29th August 2013, 09:00   #19973  |  Link
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I believe LCD panels should generally not flicker at all, unless they use BFI, DFI or a scanning backlight.
If you have a LED backlight driven with PWM, it is possible to see flickering. Personally I'm happy to still have CCFL backlights, as the flickering is basically non-existant there.

Of course there are screens that use LED backlights without PWM, or at least with a high enough PWM frequency, but sadly manufacturers don't usually put such information in the spec sheet properly.
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Old 29th August 2013, 09:08   #19974  |  Link
madshi
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I didn't even know that some LED backlights used PWM. My fault then, I still have a CCFL. OLED, please come to the rescue ASAP.
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Old 29th August 2013, 11:18   #19975  |  Link
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CCFL can also use PWM, and the icing on the cake is that very often their PSU emits a buzzing noise when it's not running at full capacity.

It's all explained in that link really: PWM on LED Monitors can cause headaches due to flicker
Quote:
How PWM works on a LCD monitor with CCFL and on a LCD monitor with LED. Notice the significant light fluctuations. These fluctuations can cause eye strain


The first 46" Hitachi TV set I tried was using CCFL, its PSU was buzzing and I was seeing agressive light green RBE's on high contrast movements. But no headaches this time, prolly because the response time of CCFL is slower than LED's.

Eizo have been selling non-PWM monitors for a while and they even have an old VA model currently selling for relatively cheap but its overdrive is extremely poor apparently.
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Old 29th August 2013, 11:25   #19976  |  Link
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CCFL can also use PWM, and the icing on the cake is that very often their PSU emits a buzzing noise when it's not running at full capacity.
This reminds me about my previous Samsung 203B monitor. The brightness of this unit needs to go above 82 ~ 85% to get rid of this issue from PSU.

Its panel is a 6-bit B-TN + FRC 20" 4:3.
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Old 29th August 2013, 11:42   #19977  |  Link
madshi
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Ok, enough on that topic now, thanks.

Any more samples with weird black bars, anyone?
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Old 29th August 2013, 12:51   #19978  |  Link
jmone
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Here you go - more black bars than you could wish for + logo (matt format and they look like different intensity)! Ugly enough?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/59011278/00%20-%20Bring%20Me%20to%20Life_0.mpg

Last edited by jmone; 29th August 2013 at 12:55.
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Old 29th August 2013, 15:26   #19979  |  Link
SamKook
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I'll have something for you when I put my main computer back together tonight. I have an old tv show recording with black bars of varying width during the episode and messed up colors in general so I'll pm you a link as soon as I can if that's weird enough for you.
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Old 29th August 2013, 19:23   #19980  |  Link
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regarding black bars, try the smilebox version of "How the west was won". see here: http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/screenshot.php?movieid=742&position=2
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