Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 5th September 2013, 21:41   #20021  |  Link
vulture_g7
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 6
yup! That's why I thought madvr might pull a SVP-style trick and use any card by itself....oh well!
vulture_g7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2013, 21:49   #20022  |  Link
uQuad
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3
Couldnt find the answer via google so heres the question. When smooth motion is activated i get the smoothed video, its better than anything i tried and I tried a few methods. Motion is constant, not like in all others skippy. But what botters me is how the picture is i dont know.. doubled? U can see it very clearly on the edges of objects, and im not talking about 24/25/30 frame doubling which is normal, i get that stuff. I see it even on true 60 fps video. Theres just that little afterimage, very clear ghosting. I tried to use different upscalers and all the other setting that have impact on picture in madvr but with no luck. Any ideas, anyone has seen what im talking about? I took some printscreens of my 60fps recorded blur test, those are when 'SM' is on and off of course.


Last edited by uQuad; 5th September 2013 at 21:51.
uQuad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2013, 23:37   #20023  |  Link
Asmodian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 3,074
I understand that is how smooth motion works.

Each frame is displayed for the same amount of time. If it needs to be displayed for 41.67 ms (24 fps) but using screen refreshes at 16.67 ms (60 fps) it displays the frame for two refreshes and blended into the next frame at 50%. This is "synced" to the refresh rate so, given that the refresh rate is never exactly 60 Hz and video is 24/1001 fps, the pattern of blends isn't actually 100%, 100%, 50% but more like 9.7%, 100%, 100%, 40.55% and continuously changing.

This generates lots of blended frames but given how humans see we only notice it as a slight blurring of the image, or a slight reduction in "sharpness", and much preferred to judder in my opinion.

Edit: Oh and the partial %'s are totally made up by me to illustrate the example. I have no idea what percentages madshi is actually using, it might be more complex than my simple 50% time = 50% blend.

Last edited by Asmodian; 5th September 2013 at 23:40.
Asmodian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 05:21   #20024  |  Link
jkauff
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Doylestown, PA in the U.S.A.
Posts: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by vulture_g7 View Post
yup! That's why I thought madvr might pull a SVP-style trick and use any card by itself....oh well!
I used to use SVP, but I gave up on it. Too many adjustments required for wonky source video, and half the time I couldn't get it to work without artifacts. I just put madVR on the highest recommended settings and get a beautiful picture, even though it's not quite as beautiful as SVP at its best.
jkauff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 05:43   #20025  |  Link
uQuad
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I understand that is how smooth motion works.

Each frame is displayed for the same amount of time. If it needs to be displayed for 41.67 ms (24 fps) but using screen refreshes at 16.67 ms (60 fps) it displays the frame for two refreshes and blended into the next frame at 50%. This is "synced" to the refresh rate so, given that the refresh rate is never exactly 60 Hz and video is 24/1001 fps, the pattern of blends isn't actually 100%, 100%, 50% but more like 9.7%, 100%, 100%, 40.55% and continuously changing.

This generates lots of blended frames but given how humans see we only notice it as a slight blurring of the image, or a slight reduction in "sharpness", and much preferred to judder in my opinion.

Edit: Oh and the partial %'s are totally made up by me to illustrate the example. I have no idea what percentages madshi is actually using, it might be more complex than my simple 50% time = 50% blend.
SM is only need for 24fps media to me. Only there I get the wonky playback on each renderer/sync/etc config. 25fps/50hz, 30fps/60hz play smooth as butter everywhere. And the frame doubling is visible even on the 25/30/60fps media, its making it noticibly worse. 60fps looks like 30 fps without SM.
uQuad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 08:40   #20026  |  Link
leeperry
Kid for Today
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by uQuad View Post
SM is only need for 24fps media to me. Only there I get the wonky playback on each renderer/sync/etc config. 25fps/50hz, 30fps/60hz play smooth as butter everywhere. And the frame doubling is visible even on the 25/30/60fps media, its making it noticibly worse. 60fps looks like 30 fps without SM.
You forgot to tell us on what GPU and display combination? Because IME a slow responding LCD panel really makes FRC noticeably blurry.
leeperry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 13:07   #20027  |  Link
psousa
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21
just a stupid question. if my tv can do 24hz do i need enable smooth motion? when i put 1080p24 on display modes on madVR when i see a movie at 24fps (23.976) the screen change from 60hz to 24hz. 1080p24 movies are to be seen on tv with 60hz or 24hz? i suppose 24hz is the right option but i dont know much about this 24p stuff

do i still need use SM or SM is just to use when your TV dont do 24hz?
psousa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 13:18   #20028  |  Link
DragonQ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 923
If your display can do 23.976/24 Hz natively (i.e. at integer multiple) then using that should be the best option. Smooth Motion is a helpful tool for those using PC monitors, which typically only support 60 Hz and thus cannot display 24/25/50 fps material without judder.
__________________
HTPC Hardware: Intel Celeron G530; nVidia GT 430; OCZ Vertex 2 (120 GB)
HTPC Software: Windows 7; MediaPortal 1.16.0; Kodi 17.3; LAV Filters (CUVID); MadVR
DragonQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 14:25   #20029  |  Link
psousa
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
If your display can do 23.976/24 Hz natively (i.e. at integer multiple) then using that should be the best option. Smooth Motion is a helpful tool for those using PC monitors, which typically only support 60 Hz and thus cannot display 24/25/50 fps material without judder.
thanks for te reply.

i have a receiver that can decode HD sound. after i research a bit i found that i cant have a perfect 24p experience without any framedrop with reclock and at same time bitstream HD sound to my receiver.

so as far i can see i have only two options:

1) enable reclock and have perfect 24p experience but loose HD sound ( almost every movie i see have dts-hd sound )

2) dont use reclock and have some framedrops but gain dts-hd sound from receiver.

i found another option where i could download this "dtsdecoderdll.dll" so can lav filter decode HD sound, but i dont know if the HD sound decode from LAV have the same quality from HD sound decode from my denon receiver.
psousa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 14:40   #20030  |  Link
DragonQ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 923
The only reason you need Reclock for a "perfect 24p experience" is if you're using PAL DVDs that need to be time-stretched from 25 fps to 24 fps. Otherwise, you just need to make sure your GPU is outputting 23.976p as closely as possible (tweakable with nVidia, not sure about AMD or Intel).
__________________
HTPC Hardware: Intel Celeron G530; nVidia GT 430; OCZ Vertex 2 (120 GB)
HTPC Software: Windows 7; MediaPortal 1.16.0; Kodi 17.3; LAV Filters (CUVID); MadVR
DragonQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 15:26   #20031  |  Link
psousa
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
The only reason you need Reclock for a "perfect 24p experience" is if you're using PAL DVDs that need to be time-stretched from 25 fps to 24 fps. Otherwise, you just need to make sure your GPU is outputting 23.976p as closely as possible (tweakable with nVidia, not sure about AMD or Intel).
i have a nvidia gt630m. how can i tweak those 23.976? on movies madvr say display 23.972 Hz, that is the reason why i get some framedrops right?

edit: i found this stuff : http://www.anandtech.com/show/5969/zotac-geforce-gt-640-review-/5

the first SS basically is my display, 1 frame drop every 3minutes and display saying 23.972Hz. so i need to create a custom resolution as in second SS right? this will solve the problem, since 1 framedrop every 9h is more than perfect.

that custom resoltuion on 2nd SS will not be dangerous for my laptop or panasonic TV? i really want a true 24p playmode but dont want screw my laptop or TV in process

edit2: i found this too: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=62727.0;wap2

so basically i need to try both and see what comes near of 23,976Hz right?

"You can use the madVR OSD (press "Ctrl + J" to activate) to check how near you got to the optimal refresh rate, cause madVR shows a very exact measurement of the refresh rate."

Last edited by psousa; 6th September 2013 at 15:58.
psousa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 15:53   #20032  |  Link
DragonQ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 923
At 23.971 Hz you'd get frame skips every 3 minutes or so (though you may not notice all of them depending on the scene being displayed). You need to create a custom resolution in the nVidia Control Panel to try to improve this, and it's essentially hit or miss as to what settings you need. I think madshi said that the refresh rate displayed by MadVR is approximate and not necessarily correct to 3 decimal places anyway so this causes more problems. I might be wrong on this though, hopefully he can clarify. Obviously the number of frame drops/repeats is accurate so you can play a whole film and see how many there are at the end to truly test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psousa
that custom resoltuion on 2nd SS will not be dangerous for my laptop or panasonic TV? i really want a true 24p playmode but dont want screw my laptop or TV in process
No. If your TV can't handle a certain setting, it'll merely refuse to display an image or nVidia Control Panel will report that the display "rejected" the image. After all, it's very minor tweaks we're talking about, it's not like trying to force 50 Hz on a 60 Hz-only monitor. Laptop screens are generally crap and I've never tried custom refresh rates on them so can't really comment.
__________________
HTPC Hardware: Intel Celeron G530; nVidia GT 430; OCZ Vertex 2 (120 GB)
HTPC Software: Windows 7; MediaPortal 1.16.0; Kodi 17.3; LAV Filters (CUVID); MadVR

Last edited by DragonQ; 6th September 2013 at 16:51.
DragonQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 17:19   #20033  |  Link
psousa
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21
i try create a custom resolution but i must something wrong because with this custom resolution the screen became a mess. the window start bar almost disappear
psousa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 18:07   #20034  |  Link
DragonQ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 923
Are you sure it's not all the edges being cut off? Could be that overscan settings change when the resolution and refresh rate change. If not, try not to change the settings too much. A single number increase/decrease will likely have a relatively large effect. I know that increasing the total horizontal pixels on my TV creates dodgy lines everywhere so I steer clear of that setting.

As an example, with my GTS 250 the closest I can get (with the 15 minutes of effort I was willing to put in) is 23.97630 Hz, resulting in a frame repeat every 50 minutes. For this, I created a custom resolution with the default settings for 1080p/23.976 (which gave me 23.978xx Hz) but increased the total vertical pixels by one. I just checked and this measured refresh rate was shown by both MadVR and EVR so I assume it's accurate.
__________________
HTPC Hardware: Intel Celeron G530; nVidia GT 430; OCZ Vertex 2 (120 GB)
HTPC Software: Windows 7; MediaPortal 1.16.0; Kodi 17.3; LAV Filters (CUVID); MadVR
DragonQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 18:58   #20035  |  Link
psousa
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
Are you sure it's not all the edges being cut off? Could be that overscan settings change when the resolution and refresh rate change. If not, try not to change the settings too much. A single number increase/decrease will likely have a relatively large effect. I know that increasing the total horizontal pixels on my TV creates dodgy lines everywhere so I steer clear of that setting.

As an example, with my GTS 250 the closest I can get (with the 15 minutes of effort I was willing to put in) is 23.97630 Hz, resulting in a frame repeat every 50 minutes. For this, I created a custom resolution with the default settings for 1080p/23.976 (which gave me 23.978xx Hz) but increased the total vertical pixels by one. I just checked and this measured refresh rate was shown by both MadVR and EVR so I assume it's accurate.
yes is that problem, edges being cut off. as soon i put any custom resolution, even if i choose 24hz and set the rest automatic the screen overscan and than i cant see the edges of windows.

dont know what i can do to correct this since when i try to resize the screen on nvidia options, say is unavailable for custom resolutions.

seem i will not have that perfect 24p experience soon.

after some research i read AMG gpu have a better 23.976 experience compared with nvidia.

Last edited by psousa; 6th September 2013 at 19:27.
psousa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 19:13   #20036  |  Link
DragonQ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 923
Well don't choose 2 Hz for a start. Does the TV not have overscan settings?
__________________
HTPC Hardware: Intel Celeron G530; nVidia GT 430; OCZ Vertex 2 (120 GB)
HTPC Software: Windows 7; MediaPortal 1.16.0; Kodi 17.3; LAV Filters (CUVID); MadVR
DragonQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 19:30   #20037  |  Link
psousa
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
Well don't choose 2 Hz for a start. Does the TV not have overscan settings?
sorri i edit my previous post. wasnt 2Hz but 24hz.

tv is a plasma panasonic g20 and have a 16:9 overscan option that is disable.

i forget to say my laptop is conect to a receiver denon 2309.

laptop-> receiver -> panasonic g20.
psousa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 19:42   #20038  |  Link
DragonQ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 923
I have an AVR too but it's set to pass-through the video with no changes. Is yours set up the same way? Are you sure the overscan option doesn't enable itself when you apply the custom resolution?
__________________
HTPC Hardware: Intel Celeron G530; nVidia GT 430; OCZ Vertex 2 (120 GB)
HTPC Software: Windows 7; MediaPortal 1.16.0; Kodi 17.3; LAV Filters (CUVID); MadVR
DragonQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 20:50   #20039  |  Link
psousa
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonQ View Post
I have an AVR too but it's set to pass-through the video with no changes. Is yours set up the same way? Are you sure the overscan option doesn't enable itself when you apply the custom resolution?
my AVR doenst change anything on video but i connect my laptop directly to my panasonic tv and that overscan from custom resolution is the same.

next try i will check if my panasonic overscan turn on when i change to custom resolution. if not than i dont know what i can do more. maybe sell my laptop and buy a new one with AMD gou ( seem stupid since i sell my last laptop 2 weeks ago that had a hs5650 xD )
psousa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th September 2013, 21:57   #20040  |  Link
uQuad
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
You forgot to tell us on what GPU and display combination? Because IME a slow responding LCD panel really makes FRC noticeably blurry.
Its a S775 E7200 + nvidia gts450 and dell ips monitor and sony hx750. Notice that i took printscreen picture, not with camera. That doubled frame is wrongly 'rendered' by madvr, and it should not be in my opinion.
uQuad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 22:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.