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Old 27th February 2014, 17:47   #23941  |  Link
James Freeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
ED11 mono dynamic is rather interesting. Unlike A4, I so far do not seem to be instantly taking notice of the dynamic movement. If I notice it at all, would still require more testing.
I'm really glad to hear it especially from you..
You were one of the last people that still liked AD4.
You may even be the last person give the word before madshi kills it.
Please take this comment lightly (not seriously)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
I'd suspect having different patterns for each measurement, could potentially introduce minor error.
So you think Static will be better for madTPG?
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Old 27th February 2014, 17:54   #23942  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
So you think Static will be better for madTPG?
Who knows, like madshi mentioned, some tests would need to be done. It shouldn't be that hard to figure it out by just taking some measurements with spotread and checking repeatability and dE.
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Old 27th February 2014, 18:01   #23943  |  Link
Shiandow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
I'd suspect having different patterns for each measurement, could potentially introduce minor error. Though at the end of the day, it likely highly depends on the display and measurement instrument behavior. Instrument measurement speed, instrument measurement surface area in pixels, instrument luminance sensitivity, display response time, display post-processing, etc.
I think that static dithering has the same amount of error except it becomes harder to detect since it doesn't change. If you want to know how 'precise' MadVR is at displaying a certain colour it would be better to test with dynamic dithering. Although this all depends on how good those instruments are at handling temporal noise.
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Old 27th February 2014, 18:18   #23944  |  Link
*Touche*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
I got the i1 Display Pro, I will gladly help (choose dynamic vs static).
What to look for?
Put it on continuous reading with something like HCFR, put on a pattern and change dithering modes. Look for any value changes coming from the meter.
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Old 27th February 2014, 18:38   #23945  |  Link
James Freeman
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I did a few "Report Uncalibrated" intermittent runs: Static, Dynamic, Static, Dy...etc..

I (the meter) see no difference at all.
EDIT: Note that MadTPG is only 8-bit, (read my next post).

Code:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report on uncalibrated display device
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Command line:
  dispcal.exe
    -v2
    -dmadvr
    -c1
    -yn
    -Ibw
    -R


Setting up the instrument
Product Name:      i1Display3
Serial Number:     I1-13.A-02
Firmware Version:  v1.03
Firmware Date:     05Jun12
Created MadVR window
Place instrument on test window.
Hit Esc or Q to give up, any other key to continue:
Measured display update delay of 37 msec, using delay of 155 msec
Patch 3 of 3

Measuring VideoLUT table entry precision.
Patch 9 of 9

Patch 9 of 9

Patch 12 of 12

Patch 12 of 12

Uncalibrated response:
Black level = 0.0548 cd/m^2
50%   level = 32.96 cd/m^2
White level = 141.75 cd/m^2
Aprox. gamma = 2.10
Contrast ratio = 2586:1
White chromaticity coordinates 0.3272, 0.3553
White    Correlated Color Temperature = 5716K, DE 2K to locus = 11.4
White Correlated Daylight Temperature = 5716K, DE 2K to locus =  8.2
White        Visual Color Temperature = 5395K, DE 2K to locus = 11.0
White     Visual Daylight Temperature = 5505K, DE 2K to locus =  8.0
Effective LUT entry depth seems to be 11 bits
Black drift was 0.003581 DE
White drift was 0.066035 DE
The instrument can be removed from the screen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report on uncalibrated display device
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Command line:
  dispcal.exe
    -v2
    -dmadvr
    -c1
    -yn
    -Ibw
    -R


Setting up the instrument
Product Name:      i1Display3
Serial Number:     I1-13.A-02
Firmware Version:  v1.03
Firmware Date:     05Jun12
Created MadVR window
Place instrument on test window.
Hit Esc or Q to give up, any other key to continue:
Measured display update delay of 37 msec, using delay of 155 msec
Patch 3 of 3

Measuring VideoLUT table entry precision.
Patch 9 of 9

Patch 9 of 9

Patch 12 of 12

Patch 12 of 12

Uncalibrated response:
Black level = 0.0548 cd/m^2
50%   level = 32.96 cd/m^2
White level = 141.49 cd/m^2
Aprox. gamma = 2.10
Contrast ratio = 2581:1
White chromaticity coordinates 0.3272, 0.3553
White    Correlated Color Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus = 11.4
White Correlated Daylight Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus =  8.2
White        Visual Color Temperature = 5396K, DE 2K to locus = 11.0
White     Visual Daylight Temperature = 5506K, DE 2K to locus =  8.0
Effective LUT entry depth seems to be 11 bits
Black drift was 0.001626 DE
White drift was 0.000000 DE
The instrument can be removed from the screen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report on uncalibrated display device
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Command line:
  dispcal.exe
    -v2
    -dmadvr
    -c1
    -yn
    -Ibw
    -R


Setting up the instrument
Product Name:      i1Display3
Serial Number:     I1-13.A-02
Firmware Version:  v1.03
Firmware Date:     05Jun12
Created MadVR window
Place instrument on test window.
Hit Esc or Q to give up, any other key to continue:
Measured display update delay of 36 msec, using delay of 154 msec
Patch 3 of 3

Measuring VideoLUT table entry precision.
Patch 9 of 9

Patch 9 of 9

Patch 12 of 12

Uncalibrated response:
Black level = 0.0548 cd/m^2
50%   level = 32.96 cd/m^2
White level = 141.57 cd/m^2
Aprox. gamma = 2.10
Contrast ratio = 2585:1
White chromaticity coordinates 0.3272, 0.3554
White    Correlated Color Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus = 11.4
White Correlated Daylight Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus =  8.3
White        Visual Color Temperature = 5395K, DE 2K to locus = 11.1
White     Visual Daylight Temperature = 5505K, DE 2K to locus =  8.0
Effective LUT entry depth seems to be 12 bits
Black drift was 0.002041 DE
White drift was 0.000000 DE
The instrument can be removed from the screen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report on uncalibrated display device
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Command line:
  dispcal.exe
    -v2
    -dmadvr
    -c1
    -yn
    -Ibw
    -R


Setting up the instrument
Product Name:      i1Display3
Serial Number:     I1-13.A-02
Firmware Version:  v1.03
Firmware Date:     05Jun12
Created MadVR window
Place instrument on test window.
Hit Esc or Q to give up, any other key to continue:
Measured display update delay of 36 msec, using delay of 154 msec
Patch 3 of 3

Measuring VideoLUT table entry precision.
Patch 9 of 9

Patch 9 of 9

Patch 12 of 12

Patch 12 of 12

Uncalibrated response:
Black level = 0.0547 cd/m^2
50%   level = 32.96 cd/m^2
White level = 141.49 cd/m^2
Aprox. gamma = 2.10
Contrast ratio = 2584:1
White chromaticity coordinates 0.3272, 0.3553
White    Correlated Color Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus = 11.4
White Correlated Daylight Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus =  8.2
White        Visual Color Temperature = 5396K, DE 2K to locus = 11.0
White     Visual Daylight Temperature = 5506K, DE 2K to locus =  8.0
Effective LUT entry depth seems to be 10 bits
Black drift was 0.000955 DE
White drift was 0.058878 DE
The instrument can be removed from the screen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report on uncalibrated display device
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Command line:
  dispcal.exe
    -v2
    -dmadvr
    -c1
    -yn
    -Ibw
    -R


Setting up the instrument
Product Name:      i1Display3
Serial Number:     I1-13.A-02
Firmware Version:  v1.03
Firmware Date:     05Jun12
Created MadVR window
Place instrument on test window.
Hit Esc or Q to give up, any other key to continue:
Measured display update delay of 36 msec, using delay of 154 msec
Patch 3 of 3

Measuring VideoLUT table entry precision.
Patch 9 of 9

Patch 9 of 9

Patch 12 of 12

Patch 12 of 12

Uncalibrated response:
Black level = 0.0547 cd/m^2
50%   level = 32.89 cd/m^2
White level = 141.49 cd/m^2
Aprox. gamma = 2.11
Contrast ratio = 2585:1
White chromaticity coordinates 0.3272, 0.3553
White    Correlated Color Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus = 11.4
White Correlated Daylight Temperature = 5717K, DE 2K to locus =  8.2
White        Visual Color Temperature = 5396K, DE 2K to locus = 11.0
White     Visual Daylight Temperature = 5506K, DE 2K to locus =  8.0
Effective LUT entry depth seems to be 10 bits
Black drift was 0.000427 DE
White drift was 0.076807 DE
The instrument can be removed from the screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Touche*
Put it on continuous reading with something like HCFR, put on a pattern and change dithering modes. Look for any value changes coming from the meter.
I'll try and report.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 27th February 2014 at 19:23.
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Old 27th February 2014, 18:40   #23946  |  Link
Shiandow
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The Black/White drift seems to change quite a bit.
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Old 27th February 2014, 18:46   #23947  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GREG1292 View Post
I settled on 5bit with my projector
Is that to say that your DLP can't spit out more than 5bit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Touche* View Post
In 8 bit or lower?
8bit with a 32" LCD from a 80 cm distance in a pitch black room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiandow View Post
static dithering has the same amount of error except it becomes harder to detect since it doesn't change.
Exactly
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Old 27th February 2014, 19:10   #23948  |  Link
James Freeman
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Posts: 919
madTPG Static Vs Dynamic Report:

i1 Display Pro, HCFR (continues measurement), 30% Grey Field from the AVS709HD, OD32 Static/Dynamic, Real 8-bit (no FRC) 4:4:4 AMVA display.
In 8-6 bit there is no deviation down to the thousand number (0.00X), no difference here.

Only in 5-bit and down I start to see the effect on the i1d3 (which might reflect what's happening beyond the thousandths decimal).
With Dynamic the meter jumps 50K in Temperature (XYZ changing).
With Static the meter is more consistent.
From this test I can conclude that Static gives a more stable results, without the meter being confused (this is in 5-bit and lower).

Dynamic does not improve the measurement precision for i1D3 from what I've seen, just the opposite.
If the lower bitdepth tests reflect what can happen at precision beyond thousandths (8-bit), then Static is the way to go.

Unlike our eyes,
The i1D3 meter likes a stable picture (not the smoother one) without noise in lower bitdepth, and probably in high bitdepth too, but HCFR show only down to thousandths.

Static it is.


Disclaimer:
I'm not THE JUDGE, here or anywhere...
This whole post is IMO & experience only.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 27th February 2014 at 19:26.
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Old 27th February 2014, 19:43   #23949  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Yes, this avoids dropped frames (but I think I still had presentation glitches with my GTX 670, will test this as soon as the Radeon is sent back).
But somehow also setting default debanding strength from low to high (same level like strength during fade in/outs) solves frame drops.
Isn't this very odd? The drops occur btw. during fade in/outs.
Yes, I'm having sporadic presentation glitches with the Geforce. Happens both with either "don't rerender frames when fade in/out is detected" enabled and default debanding strength at high.
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Old 27th February 2014, 19:55   #23950  |  Link
Shiandow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Only in 5-bit and down I start to see the effect on the i1d3 (which might reflect what's happening beyond the thousandths decimal).
With Dynamic the meter jumps 50K in Temperature (XYZ changing).
With Static the meter is more consistent.
From this test I can conclude that Static gives a more stable results, without the meter being confused (this is in 5-bit and lower).
Do you see the same kind of deviations if you measure with Static but at a different location?
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Old 27th February 2014, 20:05   #23951  |  Link
mzso
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Posts: 842
Hello madshi!

I was tinkering around with encoding full range rgb UT Video to yuv444 h.264. And I kept getting results that looked a bit different. Tried using only ffmpeg, then using avisynth with x264. As it turns out it might be a renderer issue. Here's my source and one of my encoded files. People claimed it looks something that might be related to bt.601/bt.709 conversion.
Here's what I got:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/64616 the color always got more orangish.
Someone claimed that my encoded file looks properly so I made screenshots with Potplayer's EVR-CP where I got opposite results:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/64643
(plain EVR rendered most obviously wrong, too dark colors)

So is this a renderer bug? Or something else?
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Old 27th February 2014, 20:23   #23952  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Last time I tried I444 in 2012, it was working fine with madVR. Most likely something is wrong in your conversion chain.
Use Avisynth ConvertToYV24(matrix="rec709") and let x264 flag the stream corresponding.
You also need a splitter like LAV that doesn't ignore the flags.
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Old 27th February 2014, 20:24   #23953  |  Link
James Freeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiandow View Post
Do you see the same kind of deviations if you measure with Static but at a different location?
With certain shades of grey and lower bit depth.
Though, I don't think the i1D3 is made for heavy patterned textures, I think it expects more uniform texture.

I've done some more testing,
It appears that the i1D3 is very sensitive and fast reacting to change.
The brighter the test image gets the faster the i1D3 reacts, so a highly dynamic image is definitely bad.

The difference is minor at higher bit depths, but to eliminate any chance of error I suggest Static.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 27th February 2014 at 20:37.
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Old 27th February 2014, 20:36   #23954  |  Link
mzso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Last time I tried I444 in 2012, it was working fine with madVR. Most likely something is wrong in your conversion chain.
Use Avisynth ConvertToYV24(matrix="rec709") and let x264 flag the stream corresponding.
You also need a splitter like LAV that doesn't ignore the flags.
Doesn't seem too likely at this point. Unless avysinth and ffmpeg fail the same way.
Did that. Used PC.709 instead, because wanted to keep full range too. Yet the results remained the same.

You could check. I shared the source file and an encode.
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Old 27th February 2014, 20:49   #23955  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
HCFR show only down to thousandths.
Unless something has changed, HCFR stores the XYZ & RGB values with millionths accuracy (6 decimal places).

Set the display mode to XYZ or RGB, highlight all cells (click upper left cell), open Edit menu -> copy, and then paste into a text editor.
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Old 27th February 2014, 20:49   #23956  |  Link
6233638
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I'm not sure if it's a bug, or just something that's being magnified by viewing in 3-bit, but I've been doing some comparisons and images seem to have a slight green tint to them when using Ordered Dither and colored noise.
This does not seem to be a problem with the error diffusion builds.
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Old 27th February 2014, 20:54   #23957  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzso View Post
Doesn't seem too likely at this point. Unless avysinth and ffmpeg fail the same way.
Did that. Used PC.709 instead, because wanted to keep full range too. Yet the results remained the same.

You could check. I shared the source file and an encode.
I'd have to set up Avisynth etc. Got no time for this, sry.
Just flag the file as bt.601. Most likely then the orange tint will go away. Clear sign for a wrong colormatrix conversion.
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Old 27th February 2014, 20:57   #23958  |  Link
James Freeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Unless something has changed, HCFR stores the XYZ & RGB values with millionths accuracy (6 decimal places).
Thanks,
But I don't think we should go deeper into it.

Its simple really,
The faster the sensor is, the more stable the displayed texture should be to minimize "capturing the wrong moment", to minimize the error possibility.
IMO 8-bit Static does it best.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 27th February 2014 at 21:03.
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Old 27th February 2014, 21:00   #23959  |  Link
GREG1292
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It can but acts like depth adjuster
8bit loses the pop I guess. Tested on several movies. Maybe I'm seeing things but my kids confirmed it. Really any setting looks good just some better than others.


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Old 27th February 2014, 21:09   #23960  |  Link
Mangix
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well this sucks...

I've been playing around with the madVR settings and have noticed that on my monitor, I cannot see a difference between 7 and 8 bits with dithering off. Dithering only makes a visual difference at 6-bit and below. Does this mean that my monitor is dithering internally? If so, is there any point in using madVR's dithering algorithms on this monitor? I can't see a difference between any of them at 7-bits(even None).
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