How to achieve "film look" on PAL DV source - Page 5

DSP8000 · 17th January 2005, 15:51

Hi,

@ E-Male, did you get my email and the images?

Good reference for some of the MB looks are Harry Potter, Catwoman, most of the new DVD movies.
Bluring with edge detection and detail preservation would be a good starting point before coloring.

DSP8000

Didée · 17th January 2005, 15:54

E-Male: Basically, yes. But it's not quite that easy: you would need a blur function that blurs with a rather big radius, but stops using any pixels in a certain direction for averaging as soon as an "edge" is found.
Unrestricted blurring, and applying the result to the "non-ede" areas only, leads to suboptimal results (already tried that, many times). It gets better by using a smart smoother, but that doesn't solve the basic problem of including pixels "from the other side" of an edge into averaging (although it's probably not an issue with blurring radii <= 5, or so).

E-Male · 17th January 2005, 17:53

@DSP8000:
yep, got them
would be great if you could make new ones when we got some dv-test-footage (as mentioned i prefer close-ups of faces) and/or some test-paterns

@didée:
"out of focus" means totally blurred, so why stop at edges??
doesn't make any sense to me
(although such a denosier would be similar to something have on my ideas-to-code-list, just for cartoons)

i agree on the need for a big radius
is there a blur-filter with variable radius?
if not i'll quickly hack that together

tsp · 17th January 2005, 18:10

Quote:

is there a blur-filter with variable radius?

medianblur

E-Male · 17th January 2005, 18:32

wouldn't a simple averaging blur be more effective then median?
since in this case we WANT it blurred badly/strongly

tsp · 17th January 2005, 19:04

it would yes. I just don't think anyone has made such a filter. Although you could use YV12Convolution it wouldn't be the most effective. I think I will make one. What colorspace do you need?

E-Male · 17th January 2005, 19:14

i'd like to do it myself, i can use the training (doesn't mean you can't do one, too, of course)

morsa · 18th January 2005, 02:09

Guys, if that were so easy nobody would be selling a 35mm lenses adaptor for MiniDV Camcorders at around U$ 8,000.
35mm DOF cannot be emulated using a filter, of course you can do it by hand...

www.pstechnik.de/datasheets/d_mini35.htm

E-Male · 18th January 2005, 07:46

a) i did not say it would be easy, i never said that
b) i never said we would reach the quality of comercial projects, i even daubted it
c) there are many expensive things sold which have free alternatives

summa summarum: i won't stop because there is some expensive hardware avaible
and i hope the others here won't either

morsa · 18th January 2005, 10:05

I never meant to stop you, if that is exactly what it sounded like.
Sorry.

I was just trying to say that it is "almost" impossible to make a filter that autonomously (if that is the intended way for it to work) detects what should be in focus and what should be out of focus.
Just that.
Sorry again, it seems everytime I say anything I upset you.

E-Male · 18th January 2005, 10:50

i'm sorry, too
i often sound ruder than i want, too
it's just that to me you sound very negative, but i'm overreacting, i know

about the focus thing, i know it will only help a bit, if at all
but it can be improved, maybe to something usefull, we'll see
i know it'll be slow, but we got some people here that won't be stopped by that
if nothing usefull comes out at the end, i guess the experience will still make it worth it

maybe we should make a list of the variouse part that could/should be in a film-look-script (like sharpening, color curve, ...)
so we can later mark which are done in freeware, which are to improved, which are less neccessary as we thought, ....

Mug Funky · 18th January 2005, 13:22

one way to get _slightly_ more DOF is to move the camera back and zoom in a little. obviously the aperture should be open as far as it can be.

i'm intrigued by the DOF simulation in avisynth though. it may be possible to get something that looks okay, but i think DOF isn't all that big a part of the film "look". perhaps something that uses edge-direction to adapt the shape of the filter around edges (this might give a "warpy" look though, and be slow as hell).

look at a film like "24 hour party people" that was actually shot in PAL, interlaced (i didn't realise this until i looked at the out-takes that were still interlaced. though when you watch it critically, it's quite obvious in places).

E-Male · 18th January 2005, 14:37

is it correct that DV also shows blur on out-of-focus objects, just much less than film?

Didée · 18th January 2005, 15:04

I'm curious how you'll try to make the distinction between in-focus and out-of-focus areas. An edgemask-approch will, depending on sensibility, either detect too much edges in the flat areas, or consider parts as out-of-focus that are actually in ...

Before too much fiddling is done, I could imagine that e.g. VagueDenoiser can be set up so that something (roughly) similar is achieved: blur the flat parts, keep the detail.

Bilateral filtering could also be a possibility, when setting the thresholds so that the assumingly "flat" areas just get catched.

edit:

Think about *skin*: A scene of a face that fills 30%-50% of the frame, background is out of focus. But too much area of the skin will show little enough detail to be considered out of focus, although it is in. - Naah, I don't want to think about that any more

E-Male · 18th January 2005, 15:34

ok, let's put that sub-topic on hold, i'll report if i get something usefull done there

so, back to making a list:

-colors [very well in progress]
-sharpening [well in progress]
-grain(optional)[done]
-focus(laaaaater)
-..........

please add

Didée · 18th January 2005, 16:07

Quote:

-grain(optional)[done]

Hey! You say "done", and didn't even see that "emboss noise":

Code:

o=last
ox=last.width
oy=last.height

blank1 = blankclip(o,width=ox/2 /4*4,height=oy/2 /4*4,color=$000000)
noise1 = blank1.addgrain(15,.0,.0)
noise2 = noise1.DEdgeMask(0,255,0,255,"2 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0",U=-128,V=-128)
NoiseDiff1=yv12lutxy(noise1,noise2,yexpr="x y - 128 +",U=-128,V=-128).bicubicresize(ox,oy)
x=yv12lutxy(o,NoiseDiff1,yexpr="x y 128 - 1.0 / +",U=2,V=2)

blank3 = blankclip(o,width=ox/2 /4*4,height=oy/2 /4*4,color=$808080)
noise3 = blank3.addgrain(15,.0,.0)
noise3a = noise3.FineEdge(1).levels(0,1.0,255,128-15,128+15).greyscale
noise3b = noise3a.DEdgeMask(0,255,0,255,"2 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0",U=-128,V=-128)
NoiseDiff2=yv12lutxy(noise3a,noise3b,yexpr="x y - 128 +",U=-128,V=-128).bicubicresize(ox,oy)
y=yv12lutxy(o,noisediff2,yexpr="x y 128 - 1.0 / +",U=2,V=2)

#NoiseDiff1
NoiseDiff2

return last

#===================================================
function FineEdge( clip clp, int "div" )
       { logic(  clp.DEdgeMask(0,255,0,255,"8 16 8 0 0 0 -8 -16 -8", divisor=div)
          \     ,clp.DEdgeMask(0,255,0,255,"8 0 -8 16 0 -16 8 0 -8", divisor=div), "max", Y=3,U=2,V=2 ) }

Code suffers from major uglyness, I just teared it out of one of those brainstorming scripts

- but it's fun to play around with it (different strenghts & blankclip-sizes)

18th January 2005, 17:15

@E-Male

Other neat things could be black, warm, cold glows - or maybe this can be done with Didée's script above?

And maybe gradients in color/b&w - to grade down a blown out sky, make it ex. more red/blue or darker - or to grade down the corners of the image like A short film about killing.

Great work!

Tin2tin

E-Male · 18th January 2005, 19:11

@Didée:
i thought addgrain would do the job
but seems like you scripted together some improvement again
what does your script do exactly? (i honestly can't understand it all, except that you do something with edges and LUTs again)

@Guest:
the corners thing should be done with a mask i think

for the rest:
i'm a victim of my lack of vocabulary in this area (english isn't my native language)
"glow" and "gradient" need some explaination in this context
(googeling for "gradient definition" gave some nasty mathematic non-video-related stuff)

communist · 18th January 2005, 19:43

Several gradients:
http://home.att.net/~arwomack01/imag...T-GRADIENT.jpg

Glow-effect:
http://www.aons58.dsl.pipex.com/tuto...owing_text.jpg

How this should look like with real footage:
Original
The glowing version
And the glowing version with the mask used to limit the effect
Glow mask

The effect is deliberately overdone

E-Male · 18th January 2005, 20:53

thx, very nice examples

but what would the gradient thing do in this context? (sorry, but i'm a bit slow today)

the glow thing, well, i knew it with text, plan to use a variation of it on titles
but in how far has this to do with film look? couldn't get that much info from the extrem picture (but nice messiah-look)
i'm also not sure how to do it in avisynth, i mean finding the edges is done, but i think the glow should only go to the outside of teh object, which cannot easily be found outomatically

17th January 2005, 15:54	#82 \| Link
Didée Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 5,391	E-Male: Basically, yes. But it's not quite that easy: you would need a blur function that blurs with a rather big radius, but stops using any pixels in a certain direction for averaging as soon as an "edge" is found. Unrestricted blurring, and applying the result to the "non-ede" areas only, leads to suboptimal results (already tried that, many times). It gets better by using a smart smoother, but that doesn't solve the basic problem of including pixels "from the other side" of an edge into averaging (although it's probably not an issue with blurring radii <= 5, or so). __________________ - We´re at the beginning of the end of mankind´s childhood - My little flickr gallery. (Yes indeed, I do have hobbies other than digital video!)

18th January 2005, 13:22	#92 \| Link
Mug Funky interlace this! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: i'm in ur transfers, addin noise Posts: 4,555	one way to get _slightly_ more DOF is to move the camera back and zoom in a little. obviously the aperture should be open as far as it can be. i'm intrigued by the DOF simulation in avisynth though. it may be possible to get something that looks okay, but i think DOF isn't all that big a part of the film "look". perhaps something that uses edge-direction to adapt the shape of the filter around edges (this might give a "warpy" look though, and be slow as hell). look at a film like "24 hour party people" that was actually shot in PAL, interlaced (i didn't realise this until i looked at the out-takes that were still interlaced. though when you watch it critically, it's quite obvious in places). __________________ sucking the life out of your videos since 2004

18th January 2005, 15:04	#94 \| Link
Didée Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 5,391	I'm curious how you'll try to make the distinction between in-focus and out-of-focus areas. An edgemask-approch will, depending on sensibility, either detect too much edges in the flat areas, or consider parts as out-of-focus that are actually in ... Before too much fiddling is done, I could imagine that e.g. VagueDenoiser can be set up so that something (roughly) similar is achieved: blur the flat parts, keep the detail. Bilateral filtering could also be a possibility, when setting the thresholds so that the assumingly "flat" areas just get catched. edit: Think about skin: A scene of a face that fills 30%-50% of the frame, background is out of focus. But too much area of the skin will show little enough detail to be considered out of focus, although it is in. - Naah, I don't want to think about that any more __________________ - We´re at the beginning of the end of mankind´s childhood - My little flickr gallery. (Yes indeed, I do have hobbies other than digital video!) Last edited by Didée; 18th January 2005 at 15:14.

18th January 2005, 19:43	#99 \| Link
communist Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,152	Several gradients: http://home.att.net/~arwomack01/imag...T-GRADIENT.jpg Glow-effect: http://www.aons58.dsl.pipex.com/tuto...owing_text.jpg How this should look like with real footage: Original The glowing version And the glowing version with the mask used to limit the effect Glow mask The effect is deliberately overdone Last edited by communist; 18th January 2005 at 20:03.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

17th January 2005, 15:51	#81 \| Link
DSP8000 Doom9 Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 210	Hi, @ E-Male, did you get my email and the images? Good reference for some of the MB looks are Harry Potter, Catwoman, most of the new DVD movies. Bluring with edge detection and detail preservation would be a good starting point before coloring. DSP8000

17th January 2005, 17:53	#83 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	@DSP8000: yep, got them would be great if you could make new ones when we got some dv-test-footage (as mentioned i prefer close-ups of faces) and/or some test-paterns @didée: "out of focus" means totally blurred, so why stop at edges?? doesn't make any sense to me (although such a denosier would be similar to something have on my ideas-to-code-list, just for cartoons) i agree on the need for a big radius is there a blur-filter with variable radius? if not i'll quickly hack that together

17th January 2005, 18:32	#85 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	wouldn't a simple averaging blur be more effective then median? since in this case we WANT it blurred badly/strongly

17th January 2005, 19:04	#86 \| Link
tsp Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Denmark Posts: 807	it would yes. I just don't think anyone has made such a filter. Although you could use YV12Convolution it wouldn't be the most effective. I think I will make one. What colorspace do you need?

17th January 2005, 19:14	#87 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	i'd like to do it myself, i can use the training (doesn't mean you can't do one, too, of course)

18th January 2005, 02:09	#88 \| Link
morsa the dumbest Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malvinas Posts: 494	Guys, if that were so easy nobody would be selling a 35mm lenses adaptor for MiniDV Camcorders at around U$ 8,000. 35mm DOF cannot be emulated using a filter, of course you can do it by hand... www.pstechnik.de/datasheets/d_mini35.htm

18th January 2005, 07:46	#89 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	a) i did not say it would be easy, i never said that b) i never said we would reach the quality of comercial projects, i even daubted it c) there are many expensive things sold which have free alternatives summa summarum: i won't stop because there is some expensive hardware avaible and i hope the others here won't either

18th January 2005, 10:05	#90 \| Link
morsa the dumbest Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Malvinas Posts: 494	I never meant to stop you, if that is exactly what it sounded like. Sorry. I was just trying to say that it is "almost" impossible to make a filter that autonomously (if that is the intended way for it to work) detects what should be in focus and what should be out of focus. Just that. Sorry again, it seems everytime I say anything I upset you.

18th January 2005, 10:50	#91 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	i'm sorry, too i often sound ruder than i want, too it's just that to me you sound very negative, but i'm overreacting, i know about the focus thing, i know it will only help a bit, if at all but it can be improved, maybe to something usefull, we'll see i know it'll be slow, but we got some people here that won't be stopped by that if nothing usefull comes out at the end, i guess the experience will still make it worth it maybe we should make a list of the variouse part that could/should be in a film-look-script (like sharpening, color curve, ...) so we can later mark which are done in freeware, which are to improved, which are less neccessary as we thought, ....

18th January 2005, 14:37	#93 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	is it correct that DV also shows blur on out-of-focus objects, just much less than film?

18th January 2005, 15:34	#95 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	ok, let's put that sub-topic on hold, i'll report if i get something usefull done there so, back to making a list: -colors [very well in progress] -sharpening [well in progress] -grain(optional)[done] -focus(laaaaater) -.......... please add

18th January 2005, 17:15	#97 \| Link
Guest Guest Posts: n/a	@E-Male Other neat things could be black, warm, cold glows - or maybe this can be done with Didée's script above? And maybe gradients in color/b&w - to grade down a blown out sky, make it ex. more red/blue or darker - or to grade down the corners of the image like A short film about killing. Great work! Tin2tin

18th January 2005, 19:11	#98 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	@Didée: i thought addgrain would do the job but seems like you scripted together some improvement again what does your script do exactly? (i honestly can't understand it all, except that you do something with edges and LUTs again) @Guest: the corners thing should be done with a mask i think for the rest: i'm a victim of my lack of vocabulary in this area (english isn't my native language) "glow" and "gradient" need some explaination in this context (googeling for "gradient definition" gave some nasty mathematic non-video-related stuff)

18th January 2005, 20:53	#100 \| Link
E-Male mad computer-scientist Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,375	thx, very nice examples but what would the gradient thing do in this context? (sorry, but i'm a bit slow today) the glow thing, well, i knew it with text, plan to use a variation of it on titles but in how far has this to do with film look? couldn't get that much info from the extrem picture (but nice messiah-look) i'm also not sure how to do it in avisynth, i mean finding the edges is done, but i think the glow should only go to the outside of teh object, which cannot easily be found outomatically