RE: My new personal recomendations for DVD2SVCD DVD conversions

[SiliconSoul]

it takes about 12 hours for the encoding part with these settings and 6 pass VBR. would i be better off just doing a 6 pass vbr or lower passes with these settings?

i have an athlon Xp 1700 and normal with default settings and changing the bitrate only i get about 1.2 in cce with the settings recommeneded here i get about .76


so what do u recommend?

here is what u said last time... but that thread is locked now! :-)

My new personal recomendations for DVD2SVCD DVD conversions
I have seen many threads asking "what is the best setting to use?". Well it really isn't a simple answer. Everyone has their own opinions on what is good and what is acceptable. I tend to favor a higher quality image over speed or size. Not long ago I listed my personal settings and this became a wonderful thread that ended up resolving an issue with Avisynth. I have since done further testing and tweaking of my personal settings. So keep the following in mind when reading them.

1. DVD to SVCD only. (Not for AVI's or VCD's)
2. I often use 90 or 99 minute discs to be able to push the bitrate higher.
3. These settings are not official and are not endorsed by DVD2SVCD.


---Audio---
48 not downsampled.
224 or 192 only. I will not go lower.

---Video---CCE 4 Pass VBR---
Avg bitrate never below 2000. I adjust the number of discs or disc size to make sure it is always above 2000.
Sharpen filter on all DVD material at a setting between .3 and .6 mostly at .4
Image Quality Priority at between 22 and 24
CCE Anti-Noise filter at 12.
For personal reasons I increase the contrast and brightness using Donald Graft's Tweak filter. I have yet to fully test the DVD2AVI built in luminace settings that may make the Tweak filter unecessary.


The biggest change is the Image Quality Priority setting. I find that a higher setting then the default 17 reduces the amount of noise around the edge of foreground objects to a great degree. I was always wondering why to my eye I thought TMPG was better in this regard until I remembered a post by Kedirekin that he said he always uses a higher setting. I meant to do some tests at that time, but got distracted and forgot about it. I have to give him the credit for the settings I tried and liked.
As soon as I am able I will make an FTP server and create 2 short mpg images one at the default 17 and one at 22 and you can see for yourself. If you would rather simply do a short chapter test yourself and watch it on the PC in fullscreen mode.

All the other settings I leave at default.

A quick note on AVI's. I do not do many and my tests are limited at best, but I have seen no difference when using sharpen on an AVI source. I would not bother using it unless it is a high bitrate AVI. Most downloaded AVI's are not high enough quality to have it matter, even up to 800mb multiple files. On multi gigabyte captures I bet the results would be better.

For information on the Image Quality Priority setting, what it is and what it does, download the CCE manual from the CCE homepage. It is a pdf on 2.64, but most all the information applies to 2.50 and 2.62 as well. If you want to know more about what CCE does I highly recommend it.


Mark


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Last edited by markrb on 24th May 2002 at 13:52

[destarded]

I'm not sure I follow you, but I guess you wonder if the quality is worth the loss of speed?

And if that is what you are wondering, then I would say, atleast try it out. You'll waste a night of encoding, but that's not a big of a deal is it?

What also works pretty good, is to loose the sharpen filter, that way your encode will be pretty fast.

[chainsaw135]

@destarded i would never myself lose the sharpen as it is one of the best tools in making backups of dvd's look closer 2 the real thing But just like most of dvd authoring its all preference and doing tests like you adviced is the best way 2 see what your eye's like.


i always do 5 passes, i think that anything above that you wont be able 2 see a difference as i could not thats my eye's tho you could try your own tests or have you? if so then maybe others will read this thread and do there own tests. Its all preference tho really as i can see a difference in 5 passes verses 4 pass not much but enought 2 warrant doing it.

[markrb]

I always use Sharpen now. Usually around a .4 setting. When doing a direct compare when using it and not I always find the encode with Sharpen to be much closer to the original DVD video. The one without sharpen has to my eyes what appears to be a haze across the screen. Almost as if the glass has a light fog on it. When using sharpen that fog disappears and the images are clearer. The edges etc.. are the same. It's hard to state what it actually seems to do better then what I said about the haze.
I have done over 150 test encodes with all kinds of options. What the higher number Bicubic does and what Sharpen does are two different things. I have made test encodes with very high Bicubic settings and it does not even slightly affect the haze. Even a lower number Sharpen will remove at least part of this haze.

I will be making a couple short test encodes very shortly that I will let you download. Originally I was only going to show the difference between an Image Quality Priority setting of 17 and one of 24, but now I will also do one with and without Sharpen. Even when I get these files ready I highly recomend you do some tests of your own. Don't take mine or Bachs word for it. Try it and decide for yourself. For me until I have tested a better way I will always use Sharpen and an Image Quality Priority setting of 22 to 25.

I really believe that 6 Pass VBR is severe overkill. At most I have only done 5 pass and I doubt it's really any better then 4 pass. So if I had to choose between 6 pass VBR and Sharpen I would always pick Sharpen. Rememeber that the guys at CCE say that it reaches it's theorectical limit between 3 and 4 passes.

Mark

[markrb]

This is now under my personal section of wierd.
I did a few more test encodes with different settings and on this particular source I couldn't see much difference with any of the settings I used.
I did the following tests:
IQP of 24 and No Sharpen
IQP of 24 and Sharpen of .4
IQP of 17 and No Sharpen
IQP of 17 and a Sharpen of .4

I can only conclude that it is source dependent and one blanket setting is not for all and in some cases it doesn't matter that much.

In this encode I used Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back and while I saw no improvement with the higher settings and Sharpen it didn't make the encode any worse either. It could also be the chapter I chose, but who knows.

When I did Ghost World and From Hell I saw a definate and striking improvement with Sharpen and on From Hell it was definately better with IQP of 24.

I will do some tests on other DVD's as time allows. Right now there is no reason to put these files on the FTP since I can't see much, if any, difference. I hope to find some sort of pattern with movie type. It would sure be a pain to have to do a test on each video to find out it's settings. The good part though is that while Sharpen didn't seem to help much it didn't hurt either.

Until I have seen proof with my own eyes I will continue to use the same settings.

Mark

[destarded]

mark I was wondering, do you put sharpen before resize in your .avs? And what kind of resize do you use? If you've already told us this, then I'm sorry, getting late around here, but, just a bit curious.

Also, what I noticed about sharpen (I might have done something wrong) is that I got alot of extra compression artifacts and other mpeg jitter when using sharpen, what's your opinion about that?

[chainsaw135]

i only notice the artifacts mostly on the monitor, i dont let the bitrate get below 2000/kbs when using sharpen also i use sharpen before the resize.

[SiliconSoul]

i do not edit the avs file... should i be? should i put sharpen in a differnet place. does dvd2svcd do it correctly by itself?

i have the processor time. (athlon xp 1700) if there is a specific movie and chapter we all want to test on to get faster results then im all for it. and that wold suck if for each movie we ahd to mess with settings to Tweak it. i would like to get a good template.

if u say 6 pass encode is overkill then okay ill just do 5 passes :P

ill have to get out The Matrix and do some testing on the chapters that have lots of motion and explosions. with sharpen without. different IQP .

i would like to get a BEST quality template of some sorts.

i have to admit i do go to 1900 sometimes when say if i did go to 3 cds then the average bitrate was over 2500 and i did not want to go 3 cds. but this was jsut with hardball and im going to watch it thru before i delete the source to see if i really need to go 3 cds.


btw what about the min bitrate all that.. does that effect it much to have it at 1000 or 500 or 300 or 0...

there has to be other options that are effecting the quality also.

[markrb]

I have always put it where D2S does. I like it before the resize as most Avisynth Guru's tell you this is the proper place for filters that alter the video. When done before the resize any artifacts are less noticable.

Mark

[Vespers]

Nice work Bach. I tried sharpen and it didn't look bad but the time expended was way too long for me. I prefer to rip from a clean source(DVD) and just use, Bilear resize and Temporal smoother....my results have been very good for over a 100 encodes; the secret seems to be in not letting your min bitrate go under 1400-1600. Most movies seem to fit quite well onto 2 700 meg disks with the min bitrate set to 1500 and the max bitrate set as high as the SVCD spec allows...Anyway good job and thanks for the insight comparison.....

[SiliconSoul]

1. so are u saying it is better without but it looks better with?

2. sharpen YES OR NO?

[markrb]

I have done direct 1:1 compares with my own eyes to the original DVD VOB files in all of my tests(basically ripped a chapter and loaded both the original VOB and the encoded mpg into WinDVD(and PowerDVD) and switched between them like chapters.). Like I have said in my original tests of the movies Ghost World and From Hell when not using sharpen the image is far from the original DVD. On Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back without Sharpen the encode is about the same as the original DVD.
One thing I would like to mention is that the movie "The Mists of Avalon" was a made for TV movie and not meant for theatrical release. I would question the source material here as being a good candidate for these tests.
Like I have recently said the benefits of sharpen appear to be source dependant. I am starting to lean towards, although I don't have enough tests to say with conviction, that more "film" based movies tend to benifit the most.
In my searching for a better way to encode I was only looking for something to lift the haze off the image. When in the right strength on the right movie I am still convinced Sharpen produces a superior picture(i.e. closer to the original DVD source).
I would ask that you try these same tests on the movie Ghost World and see what kind of results you get. I would be really interested to see an apples to apples compare and not just using any random movie. I have stated before that not all movies would use the same setting and that some may not benifit at all.

In the end though I will use and recomend what I like regardless of any other tests. If I see something else recomended I have no quams about trying it out myself and seeing if I like it and if I do recomending that.

I am really at a bad time now and do not have the ability to do much testing myself. Once I have moved and settled into my new place I will do more testing. With and without sharpen, etc... and I will be as impartial as possible and I will be sure to actually try different types of source DVD's. I along with most everyone here wants the best possible encodes so if Sharpen proves to be a bad choice I will drop it, but I have a strong feeling it has it's place.

Mark

[chainsaw135]

Its all preference, as mark and i have the same dvd players our settings are almost mirrored. So i am pretty sure i understand what bach is getting at. Still with that said the results of sharpen verses without when using apex 5131 it looks way better on every movie i've done. Now i dont have a projection tv just a regular 32" but tests or no tests i know what looks better to me and sharpen does.

[Vespers]

Silicon Soul. While Sharpen does have its place, I personnaly don't use it. You have to remember this is all very subjective. What looks god to me might not look good to you. I always try for a balance of quality somewhere between vhs and dvd. I am not looking to recreate exact DVD quality on SVCD. While this is fine for me; others may not be satisfied with this and demand more exacting replications. I'll post some short pieces later in the week and then you can decide for yourself what is good and what is not. Cheers..

[markrb]

I have started making some more tests as time allows. I am using about 9 different videos that all have some major differences between them. So far I have done The Matrix, Pleasantville, Leon and Dark City. I am planning on doing Harry Potter, Ghost World and a couple of others I have not decided on yet. All have and will be done both with and without Sharpen at the same settings. The ones so far have been chosen to represent the Dark movies, Black and White, Main Stream and Indie. I need to add a bright action and an older movie. I want to see if the type of movie really makes a difference. Once I have all of these done and if I do see a difference I will make both Screen shots and the Mpg clips available via FTP. If anyone has any suggestions for a movie to try if I have it I will try it.

All will be directly compared against the original DVD to see which one is closer in appearence and not which one looks better.

Mark

[markrb]

In doing my tests I may have stumbled upon something strange. I finally got my hands on another copy of Ghost World(what most of my early tests were based on) and when it finished I couldn't tell much, if any difference between the Sharpen and non Sharpen encodes. I decided to play with avs file a little to test if Sharpen was even working. I used a negative value(-1.0) to see if it would blur(Sharpen is just a negative value of the filter Blur and a Negative Sharpen just gives a positive Blur value and vice versa) and it did in fact Blur. I then raised the Sharpen to the highest Value I was able to use before which was 1.0 and it did Sharpen a bit, but not as much as expected. I then went into a previous illegal number of 1.5 and it worked. 1.0 used to be the highest number you could use, if memory serves me, I could be wrong. It seems that with the new Avisynth dll that maybe the values have changed. I am going to have to look into this further and see what if anything else has changed and if this will affect any of my personal settings.
If the numbers have changed this may in fact mean I will use a higher setting, but it's way to early to tell.

From the videos I have done so far with the setting of .4 in Sharpen some movies look Ok next to the DVD with or without the Sharpen filter. Without Sharpen Ghost World is definately not nearly as crisp as the DVD and Dark City is a bit off too, but not as much. All these are very early results and the images were viewed quickly.
I think I may have some free time tomorrow to be able to do more.

Mark

[Jason28]

@markrb
I dont mean to push, but I was wondering if you had done any more tests on this? I, as well as everyone else, would be interested in hearing what you have discovered.

[markrb]

I was away on vacation and now I have returned with a bad bug. I will do more as soon as I am able.

Mark

[SiliconSoul]

to tell you the truth i can not tell the difference between a 6 pass encode and the recommended settings with sharpen. plus using just the recommeneded settings with out sharpen and 6 passes is way faster than with sharpen. With my machine i could prob. do a 9 pass encode with out sharpen in the time it takes to use sharpen.

ive been doing some comparisions on whole dvd and chapters and play back on an apex 5131 and the results are very hard to tell which is better.

im not trying to piss anyone off or anything im just trying to get the best encodes in a decent amount of time. (1 dvd per 24 hours).

[chainsaw135]

yeah i'm going 2 do some test also silicone I'm waiting on my new system to come in via/fedex when that comes in then the tests will begin.....and naww you wont piss no one off.....I respect a person who does tests, and then comes back with solids answers to those tests.